your SUV subsidizes terror, even if you have a yellow ribbon on it

[stammer476]

In Detroit, where Autos are king, I believe that the public transportation system does not extend to the airport (meaning an super expensive taxi ride, or a car rental).

We don't really have any public transportation system at all, let alone one that extends to the aiport. There's the "people mover," but it only covers a small section of downtown, is regularly broken, and most consider it unsafe.

Detroit's idea of public transportation is the highway.

 

[Irvine511]

We don't really have any public transportation system at all, let alone one that extends to the aiport. There's the "people mover," but it only covers a small section of downtown, is regularly broken, and most consider it unsafe.

Detroit's idea of public transportation is the highway.

and all this is the fault of the collusion between the auto industry, the construction industry (for lack of a better word), and the deal they made with the Eisenhower administration who used the idea that cars and highways would be a more effective way to evacuate the major cities in the event of a nuclear war.

and all it's done is pollute our atmosphere, support Middle East tyrants, and make us fat.

 

[financeguy]

and all this is the fault of the collusion between the auto industry, the construction industry (for lack of a better word), and the deal they made with the Eisenhower administration who used the idea that cars and highways would be a more effective way to evacuate the major cities in the event of a nuclear war.

and all it's done is pollute our atmosphere, support Middle East tyrants, and make us fat.

Well, the United States is certainly not the only country that is car dependent. The first country to build auto-bahns/motorways/highways was Germany! Although now Germany is considered to have a pretty good public tranport system.

Here in Ireland we are spending billions on improving road infrastructure. Ridiculous.

 

[Dismantled]

hmmmm ... i went to college 5 miles south of Vermont and i drove around in a standard, front-wheel drive Toyota and was perfectly fine.

what did people do before there were SUVs?

Ever been to Northern VT?....I guarrentee that Toyota will be sitting under 5 feet of snow going nowhere all winter.

 

[Irvine511]

Ever been to Northern VT?....I guarrentee that Toyota will be sitting under 5 feet of snow going nowhere all winter.

been all over vermont -- i'm what you would have called a "Flatlander" -- and i don't suppose the roads remain under 5 feet of snow until spring arrives around Memorial Day weekend? do the snowplows not work up there? is the amount of yearly snowfall dramatically different between Bennington and Burlington?

love your state, btw.

i do think an argument can be made that people in particularly harsh climates have more of a need for SUVs; but this is not an excuse for either their failure to meet the same MPG requirements as regular cars must or the fact that people living in, say, Florida have no need for an SUV whatsoever.

though, ironically, when driving on snow, i'd feel much safer riding with Vermonter in a Toyota than with a Floridian in an SUV.

 

[Sue DeNym]

I hate SUVs...not just for their consumption of gas and their ability to roll over...but when little people like me are in our meek Toyota Corollas surrounded by the monsters...it's not fun!

No, it is not. It's rather scary driving when you're surrounded by vehicles you cannot see around or through. You don't know what's ahead of you, what's beside you, what's behind you. You can't see upcoming road construction, emergency vehicles or pedestrians. All you see are those ugly H2s and 4x4s, their headlights right in your rear view mirror, their arrogant owners blasting their horns at you if you have the audacity to allow someone to switch lanes in front of you.

I'd say 54% is a pretty good estimate of SUVs on the roads of Phoenix, Arizona. I mean, gosh, you sure need those powerful engines and huge tires to navigate our flat, straight city streets. Either that, or we have an awful lot of people who feel the need to advertise their ... er... shortcomings...

But seriously, the pollution here has been horrible this year. Between the wildfires and the increase of gas-guzzlers on the roads, I've never had so many sinus and upper respiratory infections in any year that I've had in the last few months, and I'm not the only one. If you look at the skyline from an upper story window, it looks like someone took an artist's charcoal stick and dragged it across the horizon.

I would be very happy if they would come up with a viable energy alternative to oil, or a decent mass transit system for our ridiculously spread-out city. Until then, the best I can do is drive a decently fuel-efficent vehicle, drive as little as possible, and maybe encourage others to do the same.

 

[U2Bama]

Can it be ethical to own an SUV if it is functional to you?

First of all, I'd like to confess myself as a member of the FYM Axis of Evil, along with nbcrusader (Ford Explorer), deep (Volvo SUV) and someone else who I saw post in another thread that they have a Nissan XTerra. I have a 1996 Jeep Cherokee (not a Grand Cherokee). Also, please keep full surveilance of Axis "sleeper cells" including Martha (fuel-efficient Honda CRV), and Anitram (fuel-efficient Nissan in Canada, but still an SUV).

I purchased my 2-door, base model Jeep Cherokee 9 years ago. It had 11 miles on it when it was delivered. It now has over 198,000 miles on it. It has been very practical for my use in my occupations, in my personal life, and I will confess, in my recreational life. It is not a "huge" or even a "large" SUV. When I purchased it, it was probably considered a "midsize" SUV although now it would probably be a small SUV (but larger than a "mini-SUV such as a CRV or RAV-4).

As I said, it has been very practical and functional for many uses since I have had it. It is 4 x 4 but it does not have a lift kit or larger-than-normal tires. I have needed 4x4 off road capability on several occasions in my line of work, in my personal use, and, again, confessionally, in my recreational use. Four Wheel Drive is different than "all wheel drive" when it comes to off-road capability and the all wheel drive capabilty available on some cars AND some SUVs would not serve the same purpose. Trust me. I've seen people who have attempted it. Mine also has the trailer towing package and I have used this on a couple of occasions. It has an all-enclosed passenger area with a backseat that can have the seat cushion folded up and the seatback folded down, or the seat cushion can be removed and the seatback then folded down for more room. This is not a loaded, plush, luxury SUV with leather interior, so on many occasions I have utilized this flexibility to haul stuff much in the same way I would load up debris in the back of a pick up truck.

I recall one Christmas when my employer at the time participated in an "Angel Tree" event where employees families purchased toys and clothes for the kids of poor families who otherwise may not have had Christmas. Someone asked that I load the items up in my Jeep to haul over to the collection warehouse. Now, they could have loaded the items up in a Camry, a Neon and a Civic, but then you are taking in 3 vehicles what I could take in 1. So in an unexpected way, the tough little Jeep had one brief moment of practicality.

Recreationally, I do confess that it is very practical when my wife and I want to pack up for a week long vacation and take our beach chairs and luggage and what not. It is quite practical for hauling my ocean kayak as well (which is longer than the roof line of many sedans). And when I go to a football game on a Saturday and tailgate all day, I can load up my grill/cooler combo, a 19 inch tv, tailgate chairs, and a few packs of cookies and Zapp's potato chips, not to mention 2-3 of my friends. And it can crawl over rough terrain right up to our weekly tailgate spot. And our dog's crate fits perfectly in the back of my Jeep when the seat is folded down. It is a wire crate which would have to be disassembled and re-assembled (neither of which I recall how to do) if I owned a Chevy Cobalt.

Another confession: Based on my size and my posture, I have become quite accustomed to the feel of driving this vehicle. When I sit behind the wheel of my parents' Oldsmobuick sedan, I have to crane my neck to be able to see over the front end of the car. Station wagons are all-wheel drive or 2-wheel drive. Mini-vans are too large for my puirposes and don't get much better gas mileage. Pickup trucks don't have the convenience of an all-enclosed passenger/cargo area. My gas mileage is 17-20 MPG and I am not complaining about the high cost of gas so please don't tell me to quit complaining about thehigh cost of gas.

Believe it or not, I even know someone who makes practical use of a Chevrolet K1500 Suburban, the 15-19 MPG version mentioned in the blame it on Bush article. They have 4 kids, who have several close friends and cousins that live in the nearby vicinity and go to 2 or 3 different schools (based on their age/grade levels). The Suburban seats 8 and is 2 wheel drive. Quite easily, they can carpool their 4 kids and 3 others (which they do) to the different schools. One parent's family lives across the state and has a vacation home in Florida. They can load up their kids and a couple of friends or cousins and everyone's luggage in the back of the Suburban, without having to put a fuel wasting luggage rack on top, and haul everybody and everything in one vehicle. And they aren't complaining about fuel.

So, I ask those of you who have such strong opinions on the subject an SUVs and the terrorist supporters who drive them or have freinds or relatives they have not condemned yet still drive them: can it be ethical for someone to own an SUV if it is practical and functional for them? I recall seeing Irvine state in another thread that he believes it is unethical to own an SUV, but I ponder, are there exceptions? I think I recall reading somewhere that Bono or one of the members of U2 has in his collection, heaven forbid, an old Land Rover or G-Wagen. Could they get an exception?

~U2Alabama

 

[anitram]

Re: Can it be ethical to own an SUV if it is functional to you?

So, I ask those of you who have such strong opinions on the subject an SUVs and the terrorist supporters who drive them or have freinds or relatives they have not condemned yet still drive them: can it be ethical for someone to own an SUV if it is practical and functional for them?

I agree with this.

Mine is fuel efficient, but it is still an SUV like you say. However, it is the only car we have that can tow a boat (my father's) behind it. This is important to him as he is an avid fisherman. The only other option for us would be to buy a pick up, but then we lose on cabin space.

 

[BAW]

I think I recall reading somewhere that Bono or one of the members of U2 has in his collection, heaven forbid, an old Land Rover or G-Wagen. Could they get an exception?

~U2Alabama

I don't know a thing about their personal vehicles but I do know they drive to the venues in 4 seperate Escalades and/or Denalis.


btw, add me to the membership list for the axis of evil SUV owners. I drive a Chevy Trailblazer (V6, 18/20 mpg highway) and though I'll admit I've never blazed any actual trials in it, I have hauled quite a bit in the cargo area. I could certainly buy something with better gas mileage but I probably only drive it an average of 10-15 miles per week and I only fill up every 2-3 weeks.

 

[financeguy]

I have to say I really object to SUVs.

Ye should all get Ferraris instead.

 

[U2Bama]

Re: Re: Can it be ethical to own an SUV if it is functional to you?

I agree with this.

Mine is fuel efficient, but it is still an SUV like you say. However, it is the only car we have that can tow a boat (my father's) behind it. This is important to him as he is an avid fisherman. The only other option for us would be to buy a pick up, but then we lose on cabin space.

Thanks for adding this. And just as I hope for all angles in the respondents' replies, I also ask for all additional angles to my question. You have posted another pertinent issue, that of towing a boat (which, as I know from a little experience, towing a boat not only towing it down the road, but also up and down a slimy, algae-infested boat launch ramp. Of course, you may get a "Well, he shouldn't own a boat because boat fuel harms ...(insert aquatic concerns here)... And I welcome that because all such angles are worht discussing.

~U2Alabama

 

[U2Bama]

btw, add me to the membership list for the axis of evil SUV owners.

Thanks for coming forward. I'm sure they'll put your name on the no-fly list and FOX News will braodcast your home address.

~U2Alabama

 

[martha]

You should post more often, Bama.

 

[verte76]

You should post more often, Bama.

Yes indeed! We're from the same crazy state.

 

[starvinmarvin]

Ever been to Northern VT?....I guarrentee that Toyota will be sitting under 5 feet of snow going nowhere all winter.

Maybe you should invest in a shovel...LOL!!!!!

 

[melon]

So SUVs can drive through five feet of snow? Are they somehow magical?

Most people in the U.S. live in flat urban areas who have zero need for SUVs, so that doesn't excuse all the "status seekers" in Southern California, for instance.

Melon

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

Maybe you should invest in a shovel...LOL!!!!!

 

[Teta040]

"Axis of Evil"...ROFL.

"Bama may be crazy, but I gotta put in my 2cents here. New York State is not what some people think as crazy, but then, most people don't know that up until the '30's, the Klan used to be pretty active here. It's a real mind trip walking into the bookstore and going to the voliminous "Local Section" (Albany's history goes WAYYY Back) and opening up a book about the little town 20 minutes drive away and seeing pics of those little guys with white sheets.

Guess that's "crazy" in anegative way, but it might make the "Bamans" on here feel better.

As someone who used to live in Detroit until the '90s. let me vouch for the fact that yes, there is no public transport in that town. But, hey, it's DETROIT. There's no excuse, however, for wht Fiorello La Guardia did to NYC as early as the '30s. The first highway/suburban sprawl, what the LA Freeway is modeled after, is not Detroit or any other city, but NYC's highway system, which gutted many of the old Irish/talian/Jewish neighborhoods.

And yes, Germany invented the modern highway system...it still boggles my mind that it was Der Fuhrer himself who came up with the idea for a "people's car" (volkswagen).

 

[zonelistener]

Heil Driver's wanted

First of all, I'd like to confess myself as a member of the FYM Axis of Evil, along with nbcrusader (Ford Explorer), deep (Volvo SUV) and someone else who I saw post in another thread that they have a Nissan XTerra. I have a 1996 Jeep Cherokee (not a Grand Cherokee). Also, please keep full surveilance of Axis "sleeper cells" including Martha (fuel-efficient Honda CRV), and Anitram (fuel-efficient Nissan in Canada, but still an SUV).

~U2Alabama

Add me to the FYM Axis of Evil, with a DiamondSexy (another one to add to the list) 1999 Jeep Wrangler.

I was living high in the late 1990's, and thought "I've always wanted a Jeep" and "It is a convertible AND A 4-wheel drive...best of both worlds for the great state of Minnesota."

Well, three sates, another layoff and six + years later...it has lost its function and fun. It has allowed me to arrive work on-time and get through some tough snow situations (especially this last winter here in Pennsylvania). It has also allowed me to have some nice summertime fun, whether it be a hearty suntan on the way to a Radiohead show, or an open-roofed drive-up Movie Date.

But, alas, Monday will be my last day with the vehicle that gets 14 MPG street, 17 MPG highway (makes me the most criminal of all the Axis, I believe). I am switching to one of the Der Fuhrer's "People' Car."

Originally posted by Teta040 however, for what Fiorello La Guardia did to NYC as early as the '30s. The first highway/suburban sprawl, what the LA Freeway is modeled after, is not Detroit or any other city, but NYC's highway system, which gutted many of the old Irish/talian/Jewish neighborhoods.

And it continued as a trend with the Eisenhower System, going through minority areas and cleaning them out to put in the Interstate system. My grandfather (despite not being a minority) lived in one of these areas. An exit ramp for I-94 no exsists where his childhood home once stood.

But also of note is what Detroit did to many U.S. cities in the 1950's and 1960's. I am not sure if it was GM or Ford, but one of the two sent out Sales people, and offered Public Transit Authorities kickbacks if they would purchase buses and pull out trolley rails.

 

[joyfulgirl]

You should post more often, Bama.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Hmmm, I use public transport does that put me on the Axis of Weasels?

 

[financeguy]

Hmmm, I use public transport does that put me on the Axis of Weasels?

I believe it makes you a treehugging leftie.

 

[Kieran McConville]

This thread is troublesome, as we all subsidize terror to some degree, on the premise of the thread. Every aspect of our society uses oil and mark my words there will be many more wars fought over getting and keeping oil. I have no answers, other than I think it is good to live modestly if possible.

 

[Irvine511]

I have no answers, other than I think it is good to live modestly if possible.

yes. of course it does.

good gosh, people, it's amazing how, when our favorite possessions come under scrutiny, we lose everything in these all or nothing arguments. it's not that all useage of SUVs is unethical; it's unnecessary useage of SUVs is unethical. and i think that 99% of SUV use in this country is unnecssary.

it's akin to an 11 year old who begs his mother to buy him $120 basketball shoes, but he only plays in gym class.

i have never said ban SUVs. i've never denied that some SUVs have practical use. i have said, repeatedly, that most of the people who have SUVs don't really need them -- i don't think anyone would dispute that. if Bama thinks he uses his SUV responsibly and it is an integral part of his life, then fine. there's nothing i can do about it. but what we can do about it is place higher fuel standards on SUVs, tax them more, and not give a damn when SUV owners complain about high fuel prices.

until then, i think it would be wise for all SUV owners to read the list of complains about them that go well beyond increasing our oil dependence, and then take steps to use their SUVS, as has been suggested above, moderately.

and make your other car a hybrid.

 

[U2Bama]

But I haven't complained about the gas prices. In fact, I was pleasantly surprised to see that they had gone down here about 5-10 cents yesterday, only to go back up today due to the rigs in the western Gulf of Mexico being shut down due to Katrina. But I'll deal with it.

I didn't lose anything in "these all or nothing arguments," I only sought some clarifications, wanting to see if there can be exceptions to the rule. Moreover, I've seen some rather broad condemnations of SUVs in general (even "99%" is a bit brad in my opinion).

And I don't have another car. It would cost much more for me to purchase another car to have on hand for non-SUV qualifying purposes when I could probably spend that money on a more worthy cause.

~U2Alabama

 

[anitram]

but what we can do about it is place higher fuel standards on SUVs, tax them more, and not give a damn when SUV owners complain about high fuel prices.

I think SUVs are taking a beating as an easy target when in fact minivans are no more fuel efficient and there are plenty of regular sedans (especially the luxury V8s, I might add) which are even less fuel efficient.

Like I said, my parents have sedans which are less efficient than my SUV. And they both have Japanese cars, relatively small things, not the huge American sedans.

So why should I be taxed more and they slip under the radar for having worse cars for the environment?

 

[Sue DeNym]

Like I said, my parents have sedans which are less efficient than my SUV. And they both have Japanese cars, relatively small things, not the huge American sedans.

So why should I be taxed more and they slip under the radar for having worse cars for the environment?

Good point. Maybe the taxes should go by MPG rating? The better the mileage a vehicle gets, the lower the taxes, and vice versa?

 

[randhail]

Good point. Maybe the taxes should go by MPG rating? The better the mileage a vehicle gets, the lower the taxes, and vice versa?

That sounds like a much more rational approach than taking the blanket approach of taxing or penalizing only SUVs.

 

[Irvine511]

makes sense to me.

yes, SUVs are an easy target, and you can find exceptions all over, but i think the main point still stands: the US uses way, way more oil than it needs to, this oil is mostly used to fuel transportation, and there are many, many ways to reduce our dependency through making good decisions when we purchase modes of transportation. there are ways of both making SUVs better -- not classifying them as small trucks but classifying them as cars -- and make it more attractive to purchase a hybrid via tax incentives.

also, another one of my main points is one that's more philosophical and not just tied to SUVs, though i think SUVs are symbolic of the problem: your purchases affect the lives of the people around you. the roads, especially on the East Coast, are more clogged because of SUVs. city parking is more scarce because of SUVs. roads in the new exurbs are monstrous to make room for the SUVs, and this eats up more of America's disappearing landscape. and it goes on and on and on.

in short, Americans tend to blame everyone but themselves for higher gas prices. but when you're actually going backward in fuel efficiency and your government subsidizes that trend, you have a problem. when you're a president who cozies up to the Saudis and then guzzles more gas than anyone else, you might begin to have a p.r. problem. so, let's toughen fuel standards, double gas taxes (yes, i am serious), remove all tax breaks for SUVs and explore alternative energy sources. and if you live alone as more and more people do, and you live in an urban area, get a bike.

 

[A_Wanderer]

if you live alone as more and more people do, and you live in an urban area, get a bike.

In all seriousness that can be harmful to your health and increase the risk of heart disease; sucking in all that particulate matter on the way to work.