Why-Because I'm A Black Man In America?

[diamond]

England is approaching a police state in my opinion, however I do not live there. Ireland is probably not quite so bad, yet.

I knew you were over the pond.



I'm ok if they investigate citizens in England or Ireland for breaking into their own homes, however I think as a citizen you should cooperate with the Bobby or officer to complete his or her investigation.

 

[financeguy]

I'm ok if they investigate citizens in England for breaking into their own homes, however I think as a citizen you should cooperate with the Bobby to complete his investigation.<>

So, you're a statist, in other words. You agree with intrusive powers for state agencies. Some call that socialism.

 

[yolland]

Now we are approaching the kernel of the matter.

Now? What exactly did you think the argument which anitram, Diemen, BVS, Sean, VintagePunk and myself were making against the arrest was?

 

[financeguy]

Now? What exactly did you think the argument which anitram, Diemen, BVS, Sean, VintagePunk and myself were making against the arrest was?

Well, I probably missed that, I really did not read much of the thread.

 

[financeguy]

The 'teachable moment' for the officer would be that it's A) unprofessional and B) almost certainly unconstitutional as well to arrest someone merely for mouthing off at you. It doesn't mean that he's a "problem officer" in general; each situation is unique, and there may've been something about this one which caused him to let himself go over the edge in a way that's extremely unlikely for him to repeat.

Well, indeed. Will the officer be subject to disciplinary action with regard to this?

 

[diamond]

So, you're a statist, in other words. You agree with intrusive powers for state agencies. Some call that socialism.

In the USA we have "block watches" where neighbors watch out for each other's homes and protect their private property, we have no problem with it, it's normal. That's all that was going on here.

A good neighbor called the police when it looked like two intruders where trying to unlawfully enter.

Crowley was doing his job by doing what a good neighbor requested. In America most citizens are about law and order and let police investigate, protect and serve. We're ok with it, we also cooperate with police officers and their investigations calmly until they're over with and thank them, even if were intially misled-regardless of the officer's color. We *still* even thank them for their service-even if they were mistaken. A case like this is usually a 5 min. procedure and unfortunately Gates couldn't do it-due to psychological issues or a persecution complex of some sort it appears.

<>

 

[financeguy]

In the USA we have "block watches" where neighbors watch out for each other's homes and protect their private property, we have no problem with it, it's normal. That's all that was going on here.

A good neighbor called the police when it looked like two intruders where trying to unlawfully enter.

That's fine. I've no issue with that.

Crowley was doing his job by doing what a good neighbor requested. In America most citizens are about law and order and let police investigate, protect and serve. We're ok with it, we also cooperate with police officers and their investigations calmly until they're over with and thank them, even if were intially misled-regardless of the officer's color. We *still* even thank them for their service-even if they were mistaken. A case like this is usually a 5 min. procedure and unfortunately Gates couldn't do it-due to psychological issues or a persecution complex of some sort it appears.

<>

I see. The citizenry is happy with intrusive state powers, e.g, the power to arrest someone for the offence of, as you aptly put it, 'being a jerk'. In that case, I suppose it gets what it deserves.

I am assuming the American police are paid for their services? I am assuming that they are not performing a charitable service for the good of their hearts. I am assuming their pay comes from the taxpayers' pocket? In that case, why on earth should the citizenry meekly grovel before its servant? Should the citizen continue to grovel when the servant is mistaken or possibly inept, as appears to have been the case here. You seem to think he should. I don't.

Have you got a source for the assertion that Gates has psychological issues?

 

[yolland]

Will the officer be subject to disciplinary action with regard to this?

His department's public statements have suggested 100% support for how he handled the incident. It's possible that this doesn't fully reflect what was said or done behind the scenes, but there's no reason to assume it doesn't. 'Disorderly conduct' charges for mouthing off to police are fairly common in the US, and while they're often dropped, that does the police no harm, and the temptation to (ab)use those statutes in this way is graspable enough. Other than its involvement of a relatively famous individual, the only thing that makes this particular instance stand out is the especially eyebrow-raising stretch of treating Gates' few seconds of yelling at the departing police from his front porch as a threat to 'public' order requiring intervention.

 

[diamond]

That's fine. I've no issue with that.



I see. The citizenry is happy with intrusive state powers, e.g, the power to arrest someone for the offence of, as you aptly put it, 'being a jerk'.

In that case, I suppose it gets what it deserves.

.

Have you got a source for the assertion that Gates has psychological issues?

Based on going to the race card quickly in this case makes him suspect of questionable persecution type complex issues, opportunistic or exploitative behaviors or a combination of the 3. Remember, the cop in question has had no complaints of being a dirty cop. Steele reminds of this as well.

Also, it's suspect he sent the original lady who called the police dept flowers-when she was the one who thought things looked askew when he was trying to 'enter his home'. Smacks of opportunism and that he has issues with mistaken white guys but not mistaken white females, a twisted version of sexism if you will. The man appears to be a flamer of opportunistic divisiveness.

I think that the USA in it's totality is fine with the protective restrictions of police power, we have our checks and balances and attorneys on every corner to right any wrongs. By the same token we collectively as a nation frown on citizens that try an exploit a situation...and call people out on who do it.

<>

 

[financeguy]

Based on going to the race card quickly in this case makes him suspect of questionable persecution type complex issues, opportunistic or exploitative behaviors or a combination of the 3. Remember, the cop in question has had no complaints of being a dirty cop. Steele reminds of this as well.

Also, it's suspect he sent the original lady who called the police dept flowers-when she was the one who thought things looked askew when he was trying to 'enter his home'. Smacks of opportunism and that he has issues with mistaken white guys but not mistaken white females, a twisted version of sexism if you will. The man appears to be a flamer of opportunistic divisiveness.

I think that the USA in it's totality is fine with the protective restrictions of police power, we have our checks and balances and attorneys on every corner to right any wrongs. By the same token we collectively as a nation frown on citizens that try an exploit a situation...and call people out on who do it.

<>

I agree with you as regards this individual probably having issues with regard to a persecution complex, also in regard to the left wing elements of the media trying to fan the flames of this.

 

[diamond]

I agree with you as regards this individual probably having issues with regard to a persecution complex, also in regard to the left wing elements of the media trying to fan the flames of this.

Even with a slant in news reporting, Americans see through BS.

A new national poll released this afternoon says that more Americans believe Harvard scholar Henry Louis Gates, Jr. is at fault for the face-off in his home that led to his arrest than Cambridge police Sergeant James Crowley, the white officer who handcuffed him.

According to the Wall Street Journal/NBC News poll, 27 percent of respondents named Gates when asked who they felt was more at fault, while 11 percent named Crowley.

As we proceed forward from this event, I think the margin will become more in favor of the cop and less of the professor.

<>

 

[Diemen]

Based on going to the race card quickly Also, it's suspect he sent the original lady who called the police dept flowers-when she was the one who thought things looked askew when he was trying to 'enter his home'. Smacks of opportunism and that he has issues with mistaken white guys but not mistaken white females, a twisted version of sexism if you will. The man appears to be a flamer of opportunistic divisiveness.

Good Lord, diamond. That's the most presumptuous (to put it kindly) post I have ever seen here.

 

[maycocksean]

I think it's sad some appear intellectually dishonest here; while some may appear to have been brain washed into thinking only a certain way in regards to race. Sycophants tethered to one ideology only.

I found this article from Shelby Steele and he does a pretty good job, although he's pretty tacid in approaching Professor Gates conduct going to a 'jet lag' 'cranky old man' excuse, when it was about race w the professor. If it were a black officer in Gates home-Gates wouldn't have went nuts. It's that simple.

He calls out Obama for actually being the "stupid" one in the press conference- sorry Maycocksean.

In the end, Shelby did stick up for Officer Crowley here, and I'm sure it's quite possible he'd be blasted as an Uncle Tom in FYM though.

Run for cover Shel!

Actually, I've reflected more on Obama's comment about the officer being stupid and come to the conclusion that while it was true, it was definitely ill-advised for the President to say so.

I agree with you that if it were the black officer that addressed him (because remember there WAS a black officer in the home) he wouldn't have went nuts. You see it as him cynically deciding to "play the race card", I see it as a "gut reaction" to what he (mistakenly) perceived was happening.

 

[Got Philk?]

As a person who worked campus security while in college, I'm reminded of two calls I got in regards to "suspicious persons."

The first call told me there was a suspicious person walking around the Library with a plastic bag entering and exiting the bathroom repeatedly. In the description, the person was African-American, about 6 feet tall, and had a plastic bag. When I got the the library to check it out, there was an African man with a plastic bag near the bathroom. He worked on a cleaning crew.

The same professor was leaving campus. There is a crosswalk and an African-American male was walking across the street. It was clear that the man had difficulty walking, so it took some time. The professor honked his horn and yelled out the window. The man walking across the street, according to the professor, "stared into the car with a menacing look." So the professor waited for the man to enter his car. He then waited and followed the man three blocks OFF campus while calling the city police. The man being followed was terrified and called the police saying an enraged man was following him! He told the police the man was threatening him. On-lookers saw what had happened and the only thing that they saw was a man yelling out the window and honking his horn at another man who was struggling to cross the street.

Unfortunately, this Christian Reformed based school doesn't get much exposure to people who are not Caucasian and middle to upper class. I too wish there didn't have to be people who play the "race card" as Diamond calls it. But until situations like the two I listed above cease to exist, we are probably going to have these reactions.

 

[Got Philk?]

Actually, I've reflected more on Obama's comment about the officer being stupid and come to the conclusion that while it was true, it was definitely ill-advised for the President to say so.

I agree with you that if it were the black officer that addressed him (because remember there WAS a black officer in the home) he wouldn't have went nuts. You see it as him cynically deciding to "play the race card", I see it as a "gut reaction" to what he (mistakenly) perceived was happening.

I agree with your view maycocksean. Didn't it say that Gates and Obama were friends? I guess I also feel that he may have overreacted because of his friendship with the man.

 

[diamond]

I agree with your view maycocksean. Didn't it say that Gates and Obama were friends? I guess I also feel that he may have overreacted because of his friendship with the man.

Yes, that part is true, and why Obama spoke out showed partiality, poor judgement, and promoting an agenda in the very least.

He also temporarily set back the clock in race relations that Bill Clinton and GW Bush have help build in our country, because of his own ego.

That said, by how both Gates and Obama reacted to this event, I see at as a personal affront to past American citizens, human and civil rights leaders that have genuinely suffered real persecution and unselfishly sacrificed their time and lives to have bettered our country and world:

Steven Biko,
Emmett Till,
Nelson Mandela
and Medgar Evers.

Suppose Nelson Mandela were in Gates' shoes, honestly ask yourselves, would have had this same situation? Of course not.

Lastly note the picture below, it speaks volumes.

 

[maycocksean]

Yes, that part is true, and why Obama spoke out showed partiality, poor judgement, and promoting an agenda in the very least.

Or. . .or, it could have just been a simple mistake. Crazy, I know. But possible. . .

He also temporarily set back the clock in race relations that Bill Clinton and GW Bush have help build in our country, because of his own ego.

So help me now. . .who is blowing this way out proportion again?

 

[Diemen]

Yes, that part is true, and why Obama spoke out showed partiality, poor judgement, and promoting an agenda in the very least.

He also temporarily set back the clock in race relations that Bill Clinton and GW Bush have help build in our country, because of his own ego.

That said, by how both Gates and Obama reacted to this event, I see at as a personal affront to past American citizens, human and civil rights leaders that have genuinely suffered real persecution and unselfishly sacrificed their time and lives to have bettered our country and world:

Ever the righteous one, looking out for the little people, eh diamond?

Except from the very beginning you've been the one making wildly presumptuous and speculative claims in the hopes of turning this molehill into a mountain, making it an us vs. them, left vs. right debate, facts/law be damned.

Don't even try and pretend that your real interest here is protecting the legacy of those who have suffered real prosecution.

 

[financeguy]

Ever the righteous one, looking out for the little people, eh diamond?

Except from the very beginning you've been the one making wildly presumptuous and speculative claims in the hopes of turning this molehill into a mountain, making it an us vs. them, left vs. right debate, facts/law be damned.

Don't even try and pretend that your real interest here is protecting the legacy of those who have suffered real prosecution.

Thanks for the input, BVS.

 

[Diemen]

Har Har.

 

[No spoken words]

I'm not trying to be a dick here, and if I end up being one forgive me, but:

Why is this thread still active? I mean, it's just a big circle right now, you've all lapped each other myriad times.

Guess what? Diamond says outrageous shit. Sometimes he believes it, sometimes, like his brother, he says it to get a rise out of people....and, interference has no shortage of people to take the bait, myself occasionally included.

I mean, 10 pages ago there might have been hope for an intelligent discourse, but, who is kidding who at this point? Diamond is going to keep blowing this out of proportion in an attempt to discredit Obama, and others will keep bashing him and point out why he is "wrong", etc.

So, why are people still posting in here?

 

[diamond]

Or. . .or, it could have just been a simple mistake. Crazy, I know. But possible. . .

Yes, made by 2 men, Obama and Skip Gates.
Some would call that a "streak".

<>

 

[diamond]

I'm not trying to be a dick here, and if I end up being one forgive me, but:

Why is this thread still active? I mean, it's just a big circle right now, you've all lapped each other myriad times.


So, why are people still posting in here?

If that's your attempt of an apology for the unkind things you said to me in this tread and in the past, I will take it.

This incident and case is still evolving, that's why I have contributed from time to time.

As more pertinent facts come forth, I've touched on it.

It could be that since it is not going the way a certain group's mind set is-they want it to go away. Consider that for a moment.

That's why I'm still posting here.


<>

 

[diamond]

Ever the righteous one, looking out for the little people, eh diamond?

Don't even try and pretend that your real interest here is protecting the legacy of those who have suffered real prosecution.

.

Yes, if you knew outside of this forum, you could perhaps see me in a different light.

And I take offense to that comment. Maybe if you took a moment and looked over my page at myspace.com, and looked over what books and biographies I've studied and read, what non fiction biographical movies that my family and I enjoy, you may see you made that comment in ignorance. You would have to be *genuinely* interested though.

That said, that we differ in politics doesn't mean I do not have compassion for the down trodden, the less fortunate, and for empathy for those that have suffered racial discrimination and still suffer racial discrimination. We only differ on how to correct these problems.

I also call B.S. when I see it, and based on the way this has played out, I think I may have been correct.

Here's the link:

MySpace - david - 47 - Male - TEMPE, Arizona - myspace.com/diamondbruno9

out-

<>

 

[No spoken words]

If that's your attempt of an apology for the unkind things you said to me in this tread and in the past, I will take it.

This incident and case is still evolving, that's why I have contributed from time to time.

As more pertinent facts come forth, I've touched on it.

It could be that since it is not going the way a certain group's mind set is-they want it to go away. Consider that for a moment.

That's why I'm still posting here.


<>

It wasn't meant as an apology for anything I've said in the past, it was meant as an apology if anyone thought that particular post was insulting.

However, if my comments to you have been overly unkind.....then I do apologize. I can't pretend to agree with much that you have to say but I should have the maturity and poise to disagree without getting personal.

 

[Diemen]

Yes, if you knew outside of this forum, you could perhaps see me in a different light.

And I take offense to that comment. Maybe if you took a moment and looked over my page at myspace.com, and looked over what books and biographies I've studied and read, what non fiction biographical movies that my family and I enjoy, you may see you made that comment in ignorance.

That said, that we differ in politics doesn't mean I do not have compassion for the down trodden, the less fortunate, and for empathy for those that have suffered racial discrimination. We only differ on how to remedy those problems.

Here's the link:

MySpace - david - 47 - Male - TEMPE, Arizona - myspace.com/diamondbruno9

out-

<>

I am not saying that you have no empathy for the downtrodden in general, and apologize if you took my words to mean that. Note that I did say "your real interest here" aka, this thread. And in this thread, your posts have had a pretty clear goal of painting Obama (and Gates) in as negative a light as possible. To claim that Obama's remarks are a personal affront to those who have suffered discrimination is flat out ridiculous, outlandish and completely counterproductive to any real discussion on the topic. And quite frankly, listening to Obama's speech and then choosing that one word to represent it's content is extremely disingenuous, as he surely had a lot more substantive things to say on the topic than just the one comment about the police department's stupid actions. But I guess sensationalistic headlines get the more immediate response.

Had Obama not commented on this case, your argument would center only around the legality of Gates' arrest, which has been discussed and sorted out pretty clearly by several posters in this thread.

 

[BVS]

Thanks for the input, BVS.

I ask that you do not use my "name" as a snide remark against a mod. Diemen has actually been very critical of my tactics, and very fair in doing so...

I found this to be very unfair against him and myself.

 

[diamond]

I am not saying that you have no empathy for the downtrodden in general, and apologize if you took my words to mean that. Note that I did say "your real interest here" aka, this thread. And in this thread, your posts have had a pretty clear goal of painting Obama (and Gates) in as negative a light as possible. To claim that Obama's remarks are a personal affront to those who have suffered discrimination is flat out ridiculous, outlandish and completely counterproductive to any real discussion on the topic. And quite frankly, listening to Obama's speech and then choosing that one word to represent it's content is extremely disingenuous, as he surely had a lot more substantive things to say on the topic than just the one comment about the police department's stupid actions. But I guess sensationalistic headlines get the more immediate response.

Had Obama not commented on this case, your argument would center only around the legality of Gates' arrest, which has been discussed and sorted out pretty clearly by several posters in this thread.

The only "sensationalistic" person in this affair was Gates by immediately going to the race card, Shelby Steele pointed that out.
Shelby Steele also pointed out Obama's questionable motives.

I mainly meant that Gates' actions were an affront to people like Biko, Mandela and Till-not Obama's

Where we differ is Obama was exposed in having a automatic prejudiced view of the Cambridge Police Dept. and most Americans concur that Obama was wrong in that view-but not most FYMers.


True, there was a legal loop hole in Gates' favor, but I don't think he was unjustly arrested, nor do most Americans.

Unless there are any other pertinent developments in this story, I will let the thread descend.

<>

 

[Irvine511]

The only "sensationalistic" person in this affair was Gates by immediately going to the race card, Shelby Steele pointed that out.

which is, as ever, and always, FAR FAR WORSE than actual racism.

 

[diamond]

which is, as ever, and always, FAR FAR WORSE than actual racism.

Gates shouldn't have done it, because it wasn't true.
The facts of the case bore that out.

<>