What is your Take on Abortion?

[blueyedpoet]

Sometimes.

Oh, and I'm sure you probably then use abortion as a form of birth control. BABY KILLER

 

[BluRmGrl]

...where is the federally funded health care for children whose families can't afford it? Where is the federally funded birth control to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place? Where is the legislation preventing pollutants from poisoning children? Where is the legislation allowing adoptions to take place within loving families of all kinds?


These things are continually opposed by the same noisy bunch who thinks that my uterus is under their control.

The rich stay healthy and the sick stay poor.


And to address the original question, I've never faced this decision and hope I never will - but if I did, I'd much rather know that there was a safe, sterile location with trained, capable staff available to me rather than a back alley and a hanger.

 

[Rini]

AND this also assumes that everyone believes that an embryo is a "life."

The legal definition of death is cessation of brain waves so life is presence of them...a baby's brain waves start at day 28 (when the mother is only two weeks past her first missed period).The heart has already been beating for 4 days by then (an ultrasound shows the four chambers of the heart and the valves opening and closing - so cool!). That little creature has 46 chomosomes in each cell (except RBCs, just like you) and it's growing rapidly - it's human and it's alive.

Since abortion in most states is legal all nine months, could you kill a baby one minute before it's born? Or one minute after it's born? It's only a two minute difference.

Could you look a young child in the eye who was the result of a failed abortion and tell them they didn't deserve to live? Could you pick up a machete and start hacking their arms and legs off? What if *your* mother tried to abort you? Would you be willing to have people trying to kill you even now because you were inconvenient?

Show me a person whose life isn't inconvenient (as opposed to just obnoxious <raises hand>).

Here's a major reason why there's so much controversy: the average abortion costs about $1000 (goes up from there) and takes only a few minutes of the doctor's time. America averages 4004 abortions a day every day (= ~$4,000,000 a day = $28 million a week = $1.12 billion a month = over $13 billion a year). It's an industry. And abortion clinics don't have to meet the same standards of hygiene as a regular clinic. Cheap to run and incredible income. The botched abortions can be loaded into ambulances out the back door.

Hold back the innocents being carried off to slaughter.

 

[blueyedpoet]

The legal definition of death is cessation of brain waves so life is presence of them...a baby's brain waves start at day 28 (when the mother is only two weeks past her first missed period).The heart has already been beating for 4 days by then (an ultrasound shows the four chambers of the heart and the valves opening and closing - so cool!). That little creature has 46 chomosomes in each cell (except RBCs, just like you) and it's growing rapidly - it's human and it's alive.

Since abortion in most states is legal all nine months, could you kill a baby one minute before it's born? Or one minute after it's born? It's only a two minute difference.

Could you look a young child in the eye who was the result of a failed abortion and tell them they didn't deserve to live? Could you pick up a machete and start hacking their arms and legs off? What if *your* mother tried to abort you? Would you be willing to have people trying to kill you even now because you were inconvenient?

Show me a person whose life isn't inconvenient (as opposed to just obnoxious <raises hand>).

Here's a major reason why there's so much controversy: the average abortion costs about $1000 (goes up from there) and takes only a few minutes of the doctor's time. America averages 4004 abortions a day every day (= ~$4,000,000 a day = $28 million a week = $1.12 billion a month = over $13 billion a year). It's an industry. And abortion clinics don't have to meet the same standards of hygiene as a regular clinic. Cheap to run and incredible income. The botched abortions can be loaded into ambulances out the back door.

Hold back the innocents being carried off to slaughter.

I really haven't the slightest clue as to where you found that definition of life. If you want to say that the fetus is alive, the fetus, by definition, is a parasite.
The definition of life moves far beyond brainwaves. The ability to reproduce is another key factor in determining life. Obviously, the fetus (or parasite) cannot reproduce.
Instead of me defining life, how about we let the experts do that. This is the conventional thought of what "life" is comprised of. Taken from textbooks and lecture notes.

Organization - Living things are comprised of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
Metabolism - Metabolism produces energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (synthesis) and decomposing organic matter (catalysis). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
Growth - Growth results from a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.
Adaptation - Adaptation is the accommodation of a living organism to its environment. It is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the individual's heredity.
Response to stimuli - A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism when touched to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion: the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun or an animal chasing its prey.
Reproduction - The division of one cell to form two new cells is reproduction. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth.


Recently, a woman who is the result of a failed abortion came into town to debate abortion. Could I look her in the eye and say she shouldn't have been born? Of course, from a strictly logical point of view, it makes sense. Technically, she shouldn't have been born. Had she not have been born, her feelings couldn't have been hurt, as fetus's do not have emotional systems.
However, living human beings do. It would be hurtful to hear that "you shouldn't have been born. And that's the thing, there is a difference between her and a fetus. You can't make hurt a fetus's feelings.

Asking someone if they would go up to this woman and slice off her arms and legs etc. is a horrible argument. You are attempting to pull at the strings of someone's "heart." No, you can't just go up to someone and hack away. That's murder. Why is it murder? Because that person is alive. However, simple human beings, who have not studied arguments, are swayed but such an argument. Why? Because they are living humans who have emotions. Could you do this to a fetus? I think not.

 

[martha]

And abortion clinics don't have to meet the same standards of hygiene as a regular clinic. .... The botched abortions can be loaded into ambulances out the back door.

Prove this. And not with some bullshit from some anti-choice website.

Do you know that when abortion was illegal, every single woman of childbearing age who went to an emergency room with a certain set of symptons was automatically assumed to have undergone a butcher job of an illegal abortion? And most of those assumptions were correct? Septic shock, hemorraging, torn internal organs. But stuff like that doesn't interest "pro-life" people. They only give a damn about fetuses, not living breathing, already born women.

Nope. All they see is a little tiny collection of cells. The woman who is living and breathing is only a vessel for the "child" she may deliver. She has no other use than that.

 

[martha]

Since abortion in most states is legal all nine months

As I suspected, this is disingenous and over-simplified, and under a certain light, just plain wrong.

But I'll let you defend your own lie.

 

[fly so high!]

Since abortion in most states is legal all nine months, could you kill a baby one minute before it's born? Or one minute after it's born? It's only a two minute difference.

I would check those facts out for real if i were you, you would probably find that termination of pregnancy is usually administered before 12 weeks, it can however be done before 20 weeks.

If the procedure had to be done past 20 weeks, it would have been done after very careful consideration and lots of factors would have been carefully looked over . You would also find that the reasons were probably health related, there are endless reasons to why that might occur.

 

[enggirl]

What if *your* mother tried to abort you? Would you be willing to have people trying to kill you even now because you were inconvenient?

Ah, but you see, my mother DID try to abort me. It was 1970--3 years before Roe v. Wade. I won't go into details but, as you see, it didn't work. And you know what? I'm STILL totally pro-choice. I look at my mom's life and think of all the hell she went through and know for a fact that the choices she made were done because she had to make them...not because it was "convenient" and not because she was dumb or irresponsible or blase about anything.

 

[enggirl]

Here's a major reason why there's so much controversy: the average abortion costs about $1000 (goes up from there) and takes only a few minutes of the doctor's time. America averages 4004 abortions a day every day (= ~$4,000,000 a day = $28 million a week = $1.12 billion a month = over $13 billion a year). It's an industry. And abortion clinics don't have to meet the same standards of hygiene as a regular clinic. Cheap to run and incredible income. The botched abortions can be loaded into ambulances out the back door.

OH, and um...bullshit. It isn't McDonald's. This isn't a lucrative thing for a doctor to do, like plastic surgery. No one is protesting plastic surgery clinics, or threatening to bomb them, or stalking the doctors and clinic staff. People aren't lined up around the block to go get their D&Cs. And hygiene? Do you know anything about the human vagina and uterus? Seroiusly--you intorduce the tiniest bit of "stuff" and you can kiss it goodbye. Infections take like *that* in there--hygeine is of the utmost importance. It is only since Roe v. Wade that abortions became safer. To turn back the law now would be to see a spike in abortion-related deaths.

Just because you have this idea that an abortion doctor is a "butcher" because of your personal sensibilites regarding abortion, that does not mean that these aren't doctors and don't treat their patients with the utmost care. Hell, some of them have to drive and even fly into certain states each week to perform the procedures. If it was so lucrative, wouldn't there be doctors lined up around the block wanting to open their own abortion clinics?

And if we want to talk money, let's talk about money. How much to raise a child you don't want? How much of our taxes go to welfare for kids whose mothers didn't have easy or cheap access to birth control? It is so much cheaper to pay for sex ed (and not that abstinence only bullshit Bush is trying to push on everyone--sex is a fact of life and everyone needs to face it maturely already) and birth control than to pay for extra mouths to feed. Ridiculously enough, it was only within the past few years that most insurance companies started to cover birth control pills. Viagra? Covered. The Pill? Naaaah...not so fast.

 

[Rini]

I really haven't the slightest clue as to where you found that definition of life. If you want to say that the fetus is alive, the fetus, by definition, is a parasite.

It's the logical step: if the stopping of brainwaves signifies death, then the going of brainwaves is pre-death therefore life. Only live things can suffer death.
It's a parasite just like you and I are for the first 16-22 years of our lives. Some people are emancipated earlier but it's not the norm in Western civilization. If your family or the government is paying your bills, you're a parasite. Unless you want to just call it being family. Old, helpless people need their families, too, to take care of them. If you live long, you'll get old, too. Think about it.
BTW, I'll answer your points, but what's the main thing on your mind? I don't know if it's abortion...

The definition of life moves far beyond brainwaves.

But it's still included. Rocks don't have brainwaves. Living humans do, and that was my point.

The ability to reproduce is another key factor in determining life. Obviously, the fetus (or parasite) cannot reproduce.

No where will you find a definition of life that necessitates reproduction from immature living things. There are some animals (some salamanders, for instance) who reproduce in a larval stage, but it's older larvae. That fetus has the potential of reproduction at maturity, and that's part of the definition of life. So the fetus fits inside this definition.

Instead of me defining life, how about we let the experts do that.

Now you're ducking. Our whole educational system is set up to slowly build you to expert status, if you keep at it long enough. Some people don't need expert status, but they'll learn some things that are basic to what is understood by experts. It's part of our culture to debate, and some facts are known, and some are twisted and need exposure for what they are.

This is the conventional thought of what "life" is comprised of. Taken from textbooks and lecture notes.

Organization - Living things are comprised of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.

People start out as one cell and grow to many cells.

Metabolism - Metabolism produces energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (synthesis) and decomposing organic matter (catalysis). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.

Fetal humans synthesize food from the mother through the umbilical cord as the source of growth. They excrete metabolites through their blood system. They maintain homeostasis.

Growth - Growth results from a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.

A fetus grows the most rapidly they ever will their entire 70-80 year life span potential.

Adaptation - Adaptation is the accommodation of a living organism to its environment. It is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the individual's heredity.

In this case, the environment is perfectly suited for the baby's existance. They have to adapt after birth like crazy. Premature babies adapt and they're still basically so many weeks from conception.

Response to stimuli - A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism when touched to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion: the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun or an animal chasing its prey.

Ever heard of a video called the "Silent Scream"? It's an ultrasound of a baby being aborted. You can see the baby pushing the abortionist's instrument away, and as part of its body is ripped off, the mouth opens and the face grimaces in what can only be an expression of severe pain.

Reproduction - The division of one cell to form two new cells is reproduction. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth.

Already checked this one off above.

Recently, a woman who is the result of a failed abortion came into town to debate abortion. Could I look her in the eye and say she shouldn't have been born? Of course, from a strictly logical point of view, it makes sense.

Logic? Explain - what logic is that? What logic says people shouldn't live?

Technically, she shouldn't have been born.

Technically? What are you talking about? Look up technically in your dictionary and explain what you mean.

Had she not have been born, her feelings couldn't have been hurt, as fetus's do not have emotional systems.

I challenge you to quote scientifically qualified sources to support this. And define what you mean by "emotional system," preferably from your text and lecture notes.

However, living human beings do. It would be hurtful to hear that "you shouldn't have been born. And that's the thing, there is a difference between her and a fetus. You can't make hurt a fetus's feelings.

How would you know? They can't tell you, and baby's tear ducts don't start working until after they're born.
If a fetus's feelings aren't knowingly hurt, does this mean they deserve to be cut up alive? Support this outrageous statement.

Asking someone if they would go up to this woman and slice off her arms and legs etc. is a horrible argument. You are attempting to pull at the strings of someone's "heart." No, you can't just go up to someone and hack away. That's murder. Why is it murder? Because that person is alive.

Bingo.

And ask yourself why a person can't just murder another person (take several years if you have to - this is key to civilization).

However, simple human beings, who have not studied arguments, are swayed but such an argument. Why? Because they are living humans who have emotions. Could you do this to a fetus? I think not.

Sometimes "emotions" are really conscience.
Cutting arms and legs off a living being only bothers simple people? So sophisticated people don't mind cutting arms and legs off a child because the mother tried to kill it and wasn't sucessful? You've just insulted the humanity of nearly every person on this list.

No where else in the civilized world do we murder people because they are inconvenient.
Now let me make one point (having responded to yours): there is an abortion-recovery movement for women who have had abortions and have had their lives ruined by it. They're depressed (suicide rate of women who aborted is way above women who haven't), guilty, and some look at kids and think, "My kid would have been this old now...if he/she were still alive." It's a living hell for some of them, even if it doesn't hit them for 5-15 years. So why do women kill themselves or live in regret over a "just a fetus"? The numbers are statistically significant.
I had a friend who was a pro-abortion doctor (endocrinologist)whose wife was discovered mid-pregnancy to have advanced cancer. They delivered the baby at 6 months so they could start her on chemotherapy. They both died, and my friend never got over the loss. He said holding his dead six month "fetus" in his arms made him instantly pro-life.
That's not an emotional argument for simple minds - he was a doctor with 12 years of college and it changed his life when confronted with the reality.
She was human, you see, and she was his daughter.

 

[Rini]

Prove this. And not with some bullshit from some anti-choice website.

OK.
I'm off to bed now but I will dig up the proof and present it for you in a reasonable way.

And why not some bull shit from some "anti-choice" website? Is a fact not a fact if you disagree with the source? If a fact can be substantiated and it's legitimate on its own, then a reputable source is merely a conduit.
Or are you willing to get all your info from pro-life sources only to meet me half way?

 

[Rini]

there is an abortion-recovery movement for women who have had abortions and have had their lives ruined by it. They're depressed (suicide rate of women who aborted is way above women who haven't), guilty, and some look at kids and think, "My kid would have been this old now...if he/she were still alive." It's a living hell for some of them]

There is something I should have added here...there is hope for these women. Peace is possible. The fact of the lost child never goes away, but there is life without guilt.
I'm not condemning people who've had abortions as being horrible...abortion is horrible but surmountable. I'm not throwing stones at anyone, but have a tenderness for hurting people. I'm not perfect, either, and no one is throwing stones at me (if they do, my shoulders are broad).

 

[ThatU2]

It is so much cheaper to pay for sex ed (and not that abstinence only bullshit Bush is trying to push on everyone--sex is a fact of life and everyone needs to face it maturely already) and birth control than to pay for extra mouths to feed.

This is a fantastic statement and I just wanted to bump it up to the glorious place in the heavens it deserves.

As Tony Bruno would say... Beeeauuutiful. Hahaha.

Just last week I heard that murder was a fact of life... embezzlement was bound to happen... and "It wasn't my fault that she thought that swallowing was not contagious".

What a fucking country we live in.

-Your Resident Doc

 

[beegee]

Here's a major reason why there's so much controversy: the average abortion costs about $1000 (goes up from there) and takes only a few minutes of the doctor's time. America averages 4004 abortions a day every day (= ~$4,000,000 a day = $28 million a week = $1.12 billion a month = over $13 billion a year). It's an industry. And abortion clinics don't have to meet the same standards of hygiene as a regular clinic. Cheap to run and incredible income. The botched abortions can be loaded into ambulances out the back door.

i have been holding back from posting in this thread for three days. partly because it physically hurts me to read the things that people such as yourself say every time this topic surfaces here in FYM, and partly because miss martha is such an awesome, incredible woman that whether she realizes it or not she has been speaking with many of our voices and fighting with many of our hearts.

but after reading your post, Rini, i felt compelled to make a few corrections. the average abortion costs far, far less than a thousand dollars. go ahead, call your local clinic and ask them what it costs to terminate a pregnancy. after you do, please come back here and post the real figure. then, do me another favor, and go visit an actual clinic. and after you do that, why don't you come back here, apologize for your ignorance, and edit what has to be one of the most uniformed and uneducated posts i have ever read in one of these threads.

 

[beegee]

Since abortion in most states is legal all nine months

this is also a false "fact"

 

[blueyedpoet]

It's the logical step: if the stopping of brainwaves signifies death, then the going of brainwaves is pre-death therefore life. Only live things can suffer death.
It's a parasite just like you and I are for the first 16-22 years of our lives. Some people are emancipated earlier but it's not the norm in Western civilization. If your family or the government is paying your bills, you're a parasite. Unless you want to just call it being family. Old, helpless people need their families, too, to take care of them. If you live long, you'll get old, too. Think about it.
BTW, I'll answer your points, but what's the main thing on your mind? I don't know if it's abortion...



But it's still included. Rocks don't have brainwaves. Living humans do, and that was my point.



No where will you find a definition of life that necessitates reproduction from immature living things. There are some animals (some salamanders, for instance) who reproduce in a larval stage, but it's older larvae. That fetus has the potential of reproduction at maturity, and that's part of the definition of life. So the fetus fits inside this definition.



Now you're ducking. Our whole educational system is set up to slowly build you to expert status, if you keep at it long enough. Some people don't need expert status, but they'll learn some things that are basic to what is understood by experts. It's part of our culture to debate, and some facts are known, and some are twisted and need exposure for what they are.



People start out as one cell and grow to many cells.



Fetal humans synthesize food from the mother through the umbilical cord as the source of growth. They excrete metabolites through their blood system. They maintain homeostasis.



A fetus grows the most rapidly they ever will their entire 70-80 year life span potential.



In this case, the environment is perfectly suited for the baby's existance. They have to adapt after birth like crazy. Premature babies adapt and they're still basically so many weeks from conception.



Ever heard of a video called the "Silent Scream"? It's an ultrasound of a baby being aborted. You can see the baby pushing the abortionist's instrument away, and as part of its body is ripped off, the mouth opens and the face grimaces in what can only be an expression of severe pain.



Already checked this one off above.



Logic? Explain - what logic is that? What logic says people shouldn't live?



Technically? What are you talking about? Look up technically in your dictionary and explain what you mean.



I challenge you to quote scientifically qualified sources to support this. And define what you mean by "emotional system," preferably from your text and lecture notes.



How would you know? They can't tell you, and baby's tear ducts don't start working until after they're born.
If a fetus's feelings aren't knowingly hurt, does this mean they deserve to be cut up alive? Support this outrageous statement.



Bingo.

And ask yourself why a person can't just murder another person (take several years if you have to - this is key to civilization).



Sometimes "emotions" are really conscience.
Cutting arms and legs off a living being only bothers simple people? So sophisticated people don't mind cutting arms and legs off a child because the mother tried to kill it and wasn't sucessful? You've just insulted the humanity of nearly every person on this list.

No where else in the civilized world do we murder people because they are inconvenient.
Now let me make one point (having responded to yours): there is an abortion-recovery movement for women who have had abortions and have had their lives ruined by it. They're depressed (suicide rate of women who aborted is way above women who haven't), guilty, and some look at kids and think, "My kid would have been this old now...if he/she were still alive." It's a living hell for some of them, even if it doesn't hit them for 5-15 years. So why do women kill themselves or live in regret over a "just a fetus"? The numbers are statistically significant.
I had a friend who was a pro-abortion doctor (endocrinologist)whose wife was discovered mid-pregnancy to have advanced cancer. They delivered the baby at 6 months so they could start her on chemotherapy. They both died, and my friend never got over the loss. He said holding his dead six month "fetus" in his arms made him instantly pro-life.
That's not an emotional argument for simple minds - he was a doctor with 12 years of college and it changed his life when confronted with the reality.
She was human, you see, and she was his daughter.

Whether we like it or not, we are all capable of succumbing to emotional appeals rather than the central route of persuasion.
Peripheral arguments pull at our "heart's" strings, rather than beg our minds to think. Most religions teach that our conscience is mind plus heart. Science teaches us that our conscience is a part of the brain.

Say, for instance, I need to buy a car. I read Kelly's Blue Book, and I discover that Volvo's have the highest safe rating. Since I value my life, buying a Volvo sounds like a fantastic idea. However, I mention this to my friend and she freaks out. "Oh no, I once owned a Volvo and nearly died because of such and such," she emotionally tells me. Now, let's say that the Kelly Blue Book states that 99% of Volvo owners are never in an accident, or hurt in an accident. And, let's say that rating is the highest. Even though my friend's experience accounts for the 1%, and even though I know, statistically, that Volvo's are the safest, I'm still going to be more persuaded by my friend's argument.

This same principle applies to you.

You say anything that is pre-death is life. I'm now imagining my future son or daughter. Surely they are pre-death, as they have yet to be created. Are you committed to telling me that they are life?

I think not.

Let's say though that brainwaves are one component we look for when determining life. Are you suggesting that anything with brainwaves ought not to be killed? Your basic cow and chicken have brainwaves - albeit, their brains are rather small. Are you committed to the suggestion that any organism with brainwaves ought not to be killed?

Unless you are a vegetarian like the sexy Larry Mullen (go vote for him as sexiest vegetarian) or the sexy me, I doubt you have a problem killing organisms with brainwaves.

A fetus is, by scientific definition, parasitic. Children, even if they are fed and taken care of by parents, are not. Why? Children provide joy, laughter, happiness and so on and so forth. A fetus do not. Any organism that feeds off its host, without providing anything in return, is a parasite.

You point out an interesting correlation between those who have had abortions and suicide rates. There is a big difference between a correlation and causation though. Obviously, not every human who has had an abortion has committed suicide. Any keen mind though recognizes that this is an interesting correlation - and so you have done. The keen mind should, however, examine all the possible factors. Perhaps women who have abortion are also more likely to be poor and perhaps poor women are more likely to commit suicide. There is also the chance that those who have had an abortion face guilt trips by conservatives in society. Again, there are just too many unaccounted for factors.

When you say something like, "oh you hurt my feelings," surely we are not talking about physical pain. We know, that a fetus cannot have its feelings hurt. That is a huge separation between us and the fetus.

But look, why argue about this? Let's create a society in which no abortions are needed. European abortion rates are lower than in the States. Let's examine why. Abortion rates during Clinton's years were lower than they are now. Let's examine why.

 

[anitram]

That little creature has 46 chomosomes in each cell (except RBCs, just like you) and it's growing rapidly - it's human and it's alive.

I work on cancer research.

I have many cell lines that I grow in the lab.

They also have the complete set of chromosomes and grow and divide rapidly. Stem cells and other progenitor cells will even begin to differentiate into different tissues with things like the passage of time or stimulation. Human umbillical cells, which I grow, will start forming primitive vascular systems and so on.

They are not human and they are not alive.

I absolutely get an allergic reaction when things like this are posted because they are not just scientifically inaccurate, they are completely untrue and I'm tired of them being thrown out there to appeal to people's emotions when they have nothing to do with reality.

I'm a woman, I believe in every woman's right to choose. If you don't want the choice, fair enough. But as far as my body's concerned, the pro-lifers can piss off.

 

[Party Boy]

Who protects the life of the unborn child? Fair enough women arguing for their right to do whatever they want with their own bodies but doesnt the unborn baby have rights aswell?

When does a foetus become a living baby? I have no idea what the cut off time in terms of a pregnancy is before someone cannot have an abortion. However, for arguements sake, say its 18 weeks. After which, the foetus is then considered a living unborn baby? What happens on 18 weeks and one day?

By some peoples arguements, until the baby is born, even up to 8 months and 30 days, because its in their body, they can do what they want to it? An extreme arguement, but its legit based on some peoples attitudes.

I am anti abortion. To me, its wrong. Equally for abortion to be used as a get out clause for social issues/problems. Its not the solution. A child living and breathing but living in poverty is better than a baby not being given the chance to live.

I have luckily never got any girlfriend pregnant, so I have never had to face the dilema of potentially being a father. If that situation did arise, I would like to think that i would hold true to my personal morals knowing there is another way out.

 

[martha]

I have luckily never got any girlfriend pregnant, so I have never had to face the dilema of potentially being a father. If that situation did arise, I would like to think that i would hold true to my personal morals knowing there is another way out.

First of all, it isn't luck that prevents pregnancy. I would think with your superior attitude towards women and their bodies, you might want to find out how to prevent pregnancy.

Second, God help your girlfriend if your luck runs out. You'll want to own her body and compel her to have your child.

Who knows what will happen if she's raped. But you'll have made the decision for her no doubt. Just like her attacker did.

 

[fly so high!]

Here is an important question?

Is there any PRO-LIFER'S on this forum that are taking some form of contraception?

 

[Party Boy]

First of all, it isn't luck that prevents pregnancy. I would think with your superior attitude towards women and their bodies, you might want to find out how to prevent pregnancy.

Second, God help your girlfriend if your luck runs out. You'll want to own her body and compel her to have your child.

Who knows what will happen if she's raped. But you'll have made the decision for her no doubt. Just like her attacker did.

Um.. my superior attitude? Right...

Secondly, I never wrote anything about wanting to own my gf's body. Stop jumping down every f**king anti abortion arguement by saying all blokes want to own the womans body.

I might want to find out how to prevent pregnancy? I won't even comment on such a childish, ridiculous remark.

Oh btw, yeah, a gf of mine was raped 12 years ago. No, she didnt get pregnant. I guess she was lucky eh? Or maybe the rapist was quite nice and used protection.

Just editing and removing my calling you an a**hole. Apologies.

 

[fly so high!]

I am anti abortion. To me, its wrong. Equally for abortion to be used as a get out clause for social issues/problems. Its not the solution. A child living and breathing but living in poverty is better than a baby not being given the chance to live.

I have luckily never got any girlfriend pregnant, so I have never had to face the dilema of potentially being a father. If that situation did arise, I would like to think that i would hold true to my personal morals knowing there is another way out.

Oh really..........so your form of contraception is what?

Abstinence
Coitus Interruptus
Condom

Or maybe your girlfriend......

Abstinence
The pill
The MORNING after-pill
IUD
Implant

'cause you know what ( besides Abstinence,condoms,and coitus Interuptus) the above are ABORTIFACIENT!!!!!!

 

[martha]

Um.. my superior attitude? Right...

Secondly, I never wrote anything about wanting to own my gf's body. Stop jumping down every f**king anti abortion arguement by saying all blokes want to own the womans body.

I might want to find out how to prevent pregnancy? I won't even comment on such a childish, ridiculous remark.

Oh btw, yeah, a gf of mine was raped 12 years ago. No, she didnt get pregnant. I guess she was lucky eh? Or maybe the rapist was quite nice and used protection.

Just editing and removing my calling you an a**hole. Apologies.

I apparently touched some nerves somewhere. Good. I want you to think about all that you say you believe in.

About not wanting to own women's bodies...How else can I explain your insistence that women who are complete strangers to you have to abide by your beliefs? How else to explain your belief in compulsory pregnancy for women? What else could it be? You folks frequently hide behind the diapers of the "unborn" yet fail to take into account the women involved.

 

[Party Boy]

Oh really..........so your form of contraception is what?

Abstinence
Coitus Interruptus
Condom

Or maybe your girlfriend......

Abstinence
The pill
The MORNING after-pill
IUD
Implant

'cause you know what ( besides Abstinence,condoms,and coitus Interuptus) the above are ABORTIFACIENT!!!!!!

All of the above. To me, they prevent the possibility of life. Abortion is ending life that already exists.

Please tell me if you cannot see the difference and I will try to explain.

 

[Party Boy]

I apparently touched some nerves somewhere. Good. I want you to think about all that you say you believe in.

About not wanting to own women's bodies...How else can I explain your insistence that women who are complete strangers to you have to abide by your beliefs? How else to explain your belief in compulsory pregnancy for women? What else could it be? You folks frequently hide behind the diapers of the "unborn" yet fail to take into account the women involved.

I dont need to think about what I say or believe in.

If you read my original post, I have no interest in womens bodies. My arguement is the rights of the unborn child.

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

I dont need to think about what I say or believe in.

If you read my original post, I have no interest in womens bodies. My arguement is the rights of the unborn child.

And where do you think this "unborn" is?

How can your arguement have nothing to do with a woman's body?

 

[Party Boy]

And where do you think this "unborn" is?

How can your arguement have nothing to do with a woman's body?

Go back to my original post. Who defends the unborn childs rights? Or does the child not have any rights until its born?

By the same argument you all seem to have conveniently ignored, until the child leaves the womans body, you can do with it what you want? Even if its 8 months 30 days old?

I'd be interested in hearing your views on that.

 

[WildHoneyAlways]

Go back to my original post. Who defends the unborn childs rights? Or does the child not have any rights until its born?

By the same argument you all seem to have conveniently ignored, until the child leaves the womans body, you can do with it what you want? Even if its 8 months 30 days old?

I'd be interested in hearing your views on that.

If you go back and read this thread you'll see that this issue has been addressed a number of times.

 

[Party Boy]

If you go back and read this thread you'll see that this issue has been addressed a number of times.

Actually, no it hasnt. Not to the point I have just asked. If it has, can you post it as i have gone back through the thread to find it and I can't.

 

[martha]

I dont need to think about what I say or believe in.

If you read my original post, I have no interest in womens bodies. My arguement is the rights of the unborn child.

These two statements say so much more about you than you could ever want them to.

They sum up the entire anti-choice movement in just three sentences. They should be on billboards all over the country, so people would know exactly what the hell these people are really about; how they put the "rights" of a collection of cells over living, breathing women.

Wow. Congratulations. You've let us all know how you really feel.