U2 packing it in?

[DaveC]

I think this might be an irreconcilable debate.

I see both sides. On one hand, I agree that "it sucks" is not adequate to explain why you dislike something. But on the other hand, I can't stand Queen (the only song I can tolerate is "Under Pressure" but that's more so because of David Bowie). I totally get that Freddie Mercury was one of the best frontmen and entertainers in music history. But I just can't stand their songs. Killer Queen makes me want to jam ice picks in my ears. I can't explain exactly why (in terms of historical context or musical theory or whatever) but I just find their music intolerable and overrated.

I think there are merits to both sides of this, and I don't think you guys (I assume by your usernames you're both men) will come to an agreement

 

[Niceman]

Should we just all agree that you're a comedian then?

As far as comedians, when one person is working their butt off attempting to clarify and explain and the other is simply looking for spots where they can pretend to misunderstand and then shout, "oooooh contradiction" then I think the joke is on the one attempting to actually clarify and explain.

 

[DaveC]

Yet again, you do have my sympathy because someone as toxic as you must indeed have a terrible off-line life.

And even as I posted that last bit, this came up.

Un-called for. I don't think Nick ever got personal, or pretended to know anything about your "off-line life" to make any kind of judgements. Debate is great but that didn't help your cause any, Niceman

 

[Niceman]

I think this might be an irreconcilable debate.

I see both sides. On one hand, I agree that "it sucks" is not adequate to explain why you dislike something. But on the other hand, I can't stand Queen (the only song I can tolerate is "Under Pressure" but that's more so because of David Bowie). I totally get that Freddie Mercury was one of the best frontmen and entertainers in music history. But I just can't stand their songs. Killer Queen makes me want to jam ice picks in my ears. I can't explain exactly why (in terms of historical context or musical theory or whatever) but I just find their music intolerable and overrated.

I think there are merits to both sides of this, and I don't think you guys (I assume by your usernames you're both men) will come to an agreement

Ha! It's funny, I've been listening to Queen a lot lately!

They say that in matter of taste there can be no debate. We can discuss and debate technical ability, sales, influence, but when it comes to matters of taste you can say it plainly or delicately but I don't think you can get any clearer. I don't think you can create an ARGUMENT why Killer Queen sucks, and as much as I might be asked to I don't have an argument as to why I react the way that I do to I Want To Hold Your Hand.

There are a lot of people I'd love to illuminate as to how amazing NLOTH is, but there's simply no way to do it. They don't see what I see....

 

[Niceman]

And even as I posted that last bit, this came up.

Un-called for. I don't think Nick ever got personal, or pretended to know anything about your "off-line life" to make any kind of judgements. Debate is great but that didn't help your cause any, Niceman

I have a long history with him, and I've seen him play these games with others when I wasn't involved. As far as I can see, he is a belligerent poster, who comes here for the joy of fighting.

 

[mikal]

Quick question, does everyone here now need a college degree to participate in debates?


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[DaveC]

Ha! It's funny, I've been listening to Queen a lot lately!

They say that in matter of taste there can be no debate. We can discuss and debate technical ability, sales, influence, but when it comes to matters of taste you can say it plainly or delicately but I don't think you can get any clearer. I don't think you can create an ARGUMENT why Killer Queen sucks, and as much as I might be asked to I don't have an argument as to why I react the way that I do to I Want To Hold Your Hand.

There are a lot of people I'd love to illuminate as to how amazing NLOTH is, but there's simply no way to do it. They don't see what I see....

At the risk of sounding like Bipolar Betty, I definitely agree that there are some things that people just don't like. You don't have to have a reason for your taste. Besides the example of Queen, I also can't stand the taste of olives. Some people love them and I can't understand it, as I immediately feel ill if an olive has so much as touched something I've eaten. I don't think you have to back up why you like U2 more than early Beatles, just like I don't think I have to back up my opinions on Queen or olives. I just don't like them and I don't feel any need to have an argument as to why.

I think the issue that I had was the idea that you were saying that U2 IS better than the Beatles, straight up. Not that you, personally, like them better, but that you stated emphatically that U2 is better, point blank. And when challenged your response was "it's my opinion and that's that".

I think if you had worded your original post differently, you would have gotten a different reaction.

 

[DaveC]

I have a long history with him, and I've seen him play these games with others when I wasn't involved. As far as I can see, he is a belligerent poster, who comes here for the joy of fighting.

Ok, so because someone else is an asshole that gives you carte blanche?

You know what that makes you seem like, right...?

 

[mikal]

Ok, so because someone else is an asshole that gives you carte blanche?

You know what that makes you seem like, right...?

Blanche?

 

[Niceman]

Quick question, does everyone here now need a college degree to participate in debates?
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It seems so!

At the risk of sounding like Bipolar Betty, I definitely agree that there are some things that people just don't like. You don't have to have a reason for your taste. Besides the example of Queen, I also can't stand the taste of olives. Some people love them and I can't understand it, as I immediately feel ill if an olive has so much as touched something I've eaten. I don't think you have to back up why you like U2 more than early Beatles, just like I don't think I have to back up my opinions on Queen or olives. I just don't like them and I don't feel any need to have an argument as to why.

I think the issue that I had was the idea that you were saying that U2 IS better than the Beatles, straight up. Not that you, personally, like them better, but that you stated emphatically that U2 is better, point blank. And when challenged your response was "it's my opinion and that's that".

I think if you had worded your original post differently, you would have gotten a different reaction.

I hate olives too.

Since the internet was first invented one stupid debate has filled up the majority of all pages on all forums. It's the question of whether someone has to say "IMO" before they express an opinion. NO OPINION ON ART IS OBJECTIVE. I don't have to clarify that when I say "something sucks" it is just my opinion and neither do you. There's another board I post on on which this debate is forbidden and you can get banned for telling people they should clarify that their opinions are just their opinions.

Ok, so because someone else is an asshole that gives you carte blanche?

You know what that makes you seem like, right...?

If you read back, you'll see that he immediately attacked me when I posted in this conversation. Should I have turned the other cheek and responded to his attack with kindness and maturity? That sounds great, but I tried that once and got mercilessly mocked for it. The worst trolls on the internet make this forum their home and if you don't stand up to them and give better than you get, they get very excited and even more aggressive.

 

[Niceman]

Blanche?

 

[ozeeko]

I think Nostalgia plays a huge factor in liking stuff. For instance, when I listen to "Exit", part of me is transported back to when I was a young one, listening to the song late at night through the headphones inserted into my tape cassette walkman in the bottom bunk of me and my brother's bedroom, and it adds like a misty emotional layer to my grown up listening experience. Rose tinted ears, if you will, although that does not make a whole lotta sense. However, if I listened to "Exit" today for the first time ever, I might go "what is this weak shit?"

Niceman can't really explain why he loves U2 more than The Beatles, and neither can I really aside from saying that one band moves me more. Being moved emotionally is the best reward one can receive from music. However, pinpointing why such a song or band moves one is tricky. I can't honestly say whether I like the song "Exit" because of the memories it conjures up, or if I really do think the song is great on its own. It's a mystery that will never be solved.

That said, if I was to explain why U2 are better songwriters than the Beatles...I'd have a pretty tough time, because, well, placing everything in the right context, it's clear to me that The Beatles are far more superior in that regard. I mean, just look at Happiness Is A Warm Gun. The closest thing U2 have to that kind of genre-bending, shapeshifting song is the title track to Zooropa, which is comprised of 2 sections, one slow and one fast, while HIAWG changes and morphs throughout, not only in tempo but in time signature and tone as well.

Niceman, while you are not obligated to do it, I'd love to see you break down a couple u2 songs and Beatles songs and compare them. Fairly, of course. Not Love me Do VS. Mofo.

 

[Nick66]

I think this might be an irreconcilable debate.

Ironically, I'm usually the one saying here that opinions are opinions and there's really no right or wrong in them. Some are informed, some are uniformed, but there's really no resolving differences in opinion in art. That's self-evident.

BUT, when you do make an opinion on art that's far outside the mainstream, and do so while disparaging quite possibly the most important musical act in the history of pop music, you shouldn't whine when you're called on it...even forcefully. If someone went on an art board and said George Zimmerman or George Bush's paintings were better than a Picasso or a Monet...well, yeah, that's an opinion, but don't act shocked and hurt when people tell you what they think of your "opinion". Hell, I've infamously said some things are "non-debatable" here...but I also didn't care if someone then debated me on it.

And yeah, you certainly don't start into people's "offline lives". Tell someone their opinion sucks, they don't know what they're talking about, etc...go after what they say and how they say it, that's fair game. I've seen some epic fights on here, and been part of my share. But going on about someone's private life off this board, when you don't know them or anything about them, should be off limits. And going there says a lot more about you than it does the person's private life you're having a go at.

 

[CMIS]

Blanche?

Hahahah. Nice

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[CMIS]

So U2 is George Bush and Beatles Picasso?
I know thats not what you meant but that is a demonstration of what happens when someone expresses something way wide of the consensus.
Basically the way Niceman originally phrased his post called for a 'I think you're wrong!' (Wish i could insert a Kramer gif right here) response. Then he may have expanded on his opinions and then a debate on the merits of each band could have followed (I personally dont think beatles should be included in such a debate), but we keep going back to 'why did you say that... dont state opinion as fact'.
And Niceman, c'mon dude. Personal attacks only dilute the debate because it gives the other guy something to beat you with.

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[CMIS]

Oh and I dont think U2 are packing it in. Just a gut feeling

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[Nick66]

Oh and I dont think U2 are packing it in. Just a gut feeling

My gut (which is my primary source) tells me the same thing.

 

[DaveC]

If you read back, you'll see that he immediately attacked me when I posted in this conversation. Should I have turned the other cheek and responded to his attack with kindness and maturity?

Umm, yes, actually.

That sounds great, but I tried that once and got mercilessly mocked for it.

So since you were made fun of by anonymous strangers once on the internet you have decided that you'll never again consider being nice to someone whos a jerk to you? It sounds like you have incredibly thin skin if this is the case, to be frank.

Another option would be to ignore the people who are dicks. I can be a dick a lot of the time, even unintentionally (believe it or not!) but if someone eggs me on most of the time I'll go with it. If my post is ignored, I move on.

The worst trolls on the internet make this forum their home

That's not even remotely true. As crazy and stupid as this place can be, it's actually quite civilized compared to most Internet forums or comment boards. The reason many people come here in fact is because (speaking for myself) I can discuss baseball with fans of other teams without it immediately descending into "fuck your team", "no your team sucks more", "nuh uh", and so on (most of the time).

You don't need to "stand up to them". This is not a schoolyard where you have no choice but to be in proximity to a bully. You can choose to ignore an asshole until the topic inevitably changes and simply move on with your life.



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[Niceman]

Niceman, while you are not entitled to it, I'd love to see you break down a couple u2 songs and Beatles songs and compare them. Fairly, of course. Not Love me Do VS. Mofo.

In all honestly, I'm literally not sure how to do that.

I don't value technical ability or historical context even 10% as much as my subjective experience. It has been implied that taste is a lesser quality of a song than these other qualities.

I if I were to evaluate WOWY, I would begin by telling you about the way I felt that bass line beating in my heart and then the guitar begins to pull at it, followed by Bono singing in a deep and smooth voice singing some of my favorite lyrics of all time and blah blah blah blah blah

One of my favorite Beatles song is Eleanor Rigby. It begins with a beautiful vocal and then leads to an amazing and smooth melody. I'm struck with how clever the simple performance is. If I take the time to think about the lyrics, it is moving writing.

But in comparison, the Beatles song doesn't have the fire WOWY does. It's far more sedate and relaxed and calm. It doesn't ignite me the same way.

 

[Niceman]

Umm, yes, actually.



So since you were made fun of by anonymous strangers once on the internet you have decided that you'll never again consider being nice to someone whos a jerk to you?

When it's the same person on the same board and they begin with an attack, yeah, I'll stand by my actions.

That's not even remotely true. As crazy and stupid as this place can be, it's actually quite civilized compared to most Internet forums or comment boards. The reason many people come here in fact is because (speaking for myself) I can discuss baseball with fans of other teams without it immediately descending into "fuck your team", "no your team sucks more", "nuh uh", and so on (most of the time).

You don't need to "stand up to them". This is not a schoolyard where you have no choice but to be in proximity to a bully. You can choose to ignore an asshole until the topic inevitably changes and simply move on with your life.

You and I have likely had different experiences. Yeah, I see a few posters on this board who are nothing but schoolyard bullies. I have tried being nice and I have tried standing up to them. I would much rather be nice. I heck, I don't even hold a grudge. If in the next thread they're nicer, I'll be nicer too. But I will not take abuse and then turn the other cheek.

 

[DaveC]

You and I have likely had different experiences. Yeah, I see a few posters on this board who are nothing but schoolyard bullies. I have tried being nice and I have tried standing up to them. I would much rather be nice. I heck, I don't even hold a grudge. If in the next thread they're nicer, I'll be nicer too. But I will not take abuse and then turn the other cheek.

And again I say, just ignore the shit heads and you won't have an issue. You aren't contractually obligated to respond to everyone who replies to a post you make, you know.


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[Niceman]

And again I say, just ignore the shit heads and you won't have an issue. You aren't contractually obligated to respond to everyone who replies to a post you make, you know.


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I thank you for your input.

Olives suck, but pickles are even worse!

 

[ozeeko]

In all honestly, I'm literally not sure how to do that.

I don't value technical ability or historical context even 10% as much as my subjective experience. It has been implied that taste is a lesser quality of a song than these other qualities.

I if I were to evaluate WOWY, I would begin by telling you about the way I felt that bass line beating in my heart and then the guitar begins to pull at it, followed by Bono singing in a deep and smooth voice singing some of my favorite lyrics of all time and blah blah blah blah blah

One of my favorite Beatles song is Eleanor Rigby. It begins with a beautiful vocal and then leads to an amazing and smooth melody. I'm struck with how clever the simple performance is. If I take the time to think about the lyrics, it is moving writing.

But in comparison, the Beatles song doesn't have the fire WOWY does. It's far more sedate and relaxed and calm. It doesn't ignite me the same way.

Thing is...I think songwriting VS. a musical recording is a much different topic.
I agree with you that it's nearly impossible to explain the technical reasons why a certain recording of a song by one artist moves one more than a certain song by another. However, I think songwriting CAN BE a very technical thing to discuss. Nevermind sound recordings. Just going by composition alone. When you state that it's "not even close" that U2 are better than The Beatles when it comes to songwriting...it just makes me curious why one would think that. It's one thing to say the overall package is more appealing, the recording of WOWY vs. the recording of Eleanor Rigby. And you could definitely make the case for either. But taken as a whole, the songwriting in total of Lennon/McCartney vs. Edge/Bono...I mean, just in terms of range and know-how and how successful and consistent they were at it, to me it seems like no contest, even though I have been moved considerably more by U2 songs in my life.

 

[DaveC]

I thank you for your input.



Olives suck, but pickles are even worse!

Fuck you, pickles are objectively better than olives, clearly

In all seriousness, I think we will just have to agree to disagree. No hard feelings and all that.


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[Niceman]

Oh and I dont think U2 are packing it in. Just a gut feeling

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Yeah, I don't either. But when they take these ridiculous breaks one almost has to wonder if it counts as them still being a band.

I have no doubt there are buckets of material being written and before we're old and dead we will get to hear the lion's share of it, but I could use more of it NOW.

When I get a new U2 album it just extends the horizon. It makes my universe bigger. I don't like going 4 or 5 years without.

 

[Niceman]

Fuck you, pickles are objectively better than olives, clearly

In all seriousness, I think we will just have to agree to disagree. No hard feelings and all that.


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No hard feelings.

 

[Super Yo]

Talking about influence...

LISTEN: OneRepublic 'The Giver' Soundtrack Song 'Ordinary Human' Recalls Modern U2 : Genres : Music Times

 

[Niceman]

Thing is...I think songwriting VS. a musical recording is a much different topic.
I agree with you that it's nearly impossible to explain the technical reasons why a certain recording of a song by one artist moves one more than a certain song by another. However, I think songwriting CAN BE a very technical thing to discuss. Nevermind sound recordings. Just going by composition alone. When you state that it's "not even close" that U2 are better than The Beatles when it comes to songwriting...it just makes me curious why one would think that. It's one thing to say the overall package is more appealing, the recording of WOWY vs. the recording of Eleanor Rigby. And you could definitely make the case for either. But taken as a whole, the songwriting in total of Lennon/McCartney vs. Edge/Bono...I mean, just in terms of range and know-how and how successful and consistent they were at it, to me it seems like no contest, even though I have been moved considerably more by U2 songs in my life.

I have to wonder if part of the problem might be that we're using words differently?

For me, WOWY is a better song than any Beatles song (wonderful as so many of them are.) The creation of that tremendous song is what I call "songwriting." I'm not simply talking about the technical aspects or getting a good recording, WOWY is that good of a song imo. I really feel there is a futility in try to couch something so subjective in objective terms.

 

[Nick66]

I'll stand by my actions.

Dude, I criticised your opinion on music and you started in on my personal life. Then doubled down on it. What's next, will you have a go at my family? You went over the top in your response, that's it. If you would have just responded with your own critique regarding my views on music, we wouldn't be having this discussion now. And if you think this place is among the worst on the internet, you really haven't been around. I actually find it to be pretty nice...absent the comments about our personal lives.

Keep the arguments, and criticism, to what's said here, and not our off-site lives, and we won't have any problems.

No need to respond.

 

[ozeeko]

I have to wonder if part of the problem might be that we're using words differently?

For me, WOWY is a better song than any Beatles song (wonderful as so many of them are.) The creation of that tremendous song is what I call "songwriting." I'm not simply talking about the technical aspects or getting a good recording, WOWY is that good of a song imo. I really feel there is a futility in try to couch something so subjective in objective terms.

Yea, it's a strange subject to try and discuss technically. It's just that when you said "it's not even close" I was curious how you would break it down. Whatever. I could argue for hours on the subject, but I guess it would all come back to IMO anyway, so that's enough for now.