The Star Wars Thread, Ep II: Blu or Blu Not, There is No Original Theatrical Release

[lazarus]

Ehh, even some of that works for me. The moment where Anakin questions the competence of the political system and his is-he-kidding-or-not suggestion that a dictatorship would be preferable mixes a chilling moment with a relaxed naturalism when she accuses him of teasing her and they both laugh. It's one of the few moments they actually come off as human, and their preceding debate, while not college-level or anything, is a nice basic primer of competing philosophies for a family genre film.

Granted, it's hard to remember that scene fondly when it's followed by that giant cow creature crap and the cliche rolling in the grass, but that's TPM for you: an inconsistent mess of thoughtful, creative touches and some inane, cringe-inducing decisions. I'd argue that it contains far more of the former than ROTJ, and roughly the same amount of the latter.

 

[LJT]

yeah, I've yet to find someone over the age of 10 who thinks ROTJ is better than the first two...

Well i'm 27 and I probably like ROTJ more than the first one. Like everyone I can skip the ewoks, but I think I will always love ROTJ just for the Vader v Luke fight at the end, music swell and all. Not arguing it on a technical level but I don't see some of the criticisms that are being levelled at it compared to the others, but hey different strokes and all that, Star Wars has always had a great deal of hokum.

Best recent Star Wars thing though has been the Attack of the Clones TV series, it makes up for a lot of information gaps and generally improves the prequel trilogy by making it less nonsensical.

I'm still holding out some hope for Admiral Thrawn.

 

[namkcuR]

I feel like ROTJ is unfairly criticized. I mean, I would agree that the first two films are superior, and that Empire is the best, but ROTJ has a lot going for it, imo. I love the battle above the Sarlacc Pit, the Dagobah stuff with Ghost Obi-Wan, leading up to/beyond Yoda's death, the Luke/Vader/Palpatine confrontation, and the Death Star II fight. I think it's mostly the stuff in Jabba's Palace and the Ewoks that draw the criticism.

 

[Buk]

If you don't think direction matters, then you're failing to engage with the work on an important level. Richard Marquand's framing and work with the actors (save for Hamill's admirable effort) just isn't up to par with Lucas or Kerschner's.

As for the effects, while the space battle certainly proves the increasing sophistication of what ILM could do, the Rancor effects are often held up as an example of something that simply did not work. I don't remember anyone criticizing any particular sequences in the previous two films on that level.

It appears that your primary litmus for grading ROTJ was how many cheap thrills it provided. That just doesn't cut it with more discerning viewers, whatever their age. I was 11 when Jedi came out and I can tell you that I was definitely disappointed after the promise of Empire.

And it surprises me that you seem to have such disdain for the prequels, because The Phantom Menace delivers up much of the same, albeit with less lovable/familiar characters, but with far more visual imagination and superior effects. You act like equating ROTJ with this is preposterous but your inability to see the similarities reveals an even deeper myopic bias.

There were a couple of scenes with the Rancor that were poor, but others that were done very well. I actually keep the Kenner made Rancor on my desk.
The positive things I listed about ROTJ are not cheap thrills. There are fantastic actions elements combined with great acting, especially by Ian as the Emperor. The first two movies are a little more limited in scope in terms of what happens, while in ROTJ its a wild ride for everyone. It combines all the elements of the first two movies and adds even more. It was so much fun that I went to see the movie 4 times in the first two months of release. It was my favorite back then, and 31 years later, its still in my opinion the best of the three.

The Prequals are ok, but they are not on the level of the IV, V, and VI. I prefer the special effects of the original movies to anything scene in the Prequals. I prefer giant sets, models built, and real explosions on set, plus characters with mask and costumes, to anything the CGI offered. CGI may be cheaper and easier, but to me it does not look as real and when there is too much of it, the movie starts to look like a Saturday Morning cartoon. Lucas also screwed up the storyline in the prequals by having Anikan start out as a little child. It should have started when he was Luke's age with the first film, his turn to the dark side in the 2nd film, and then the third film following much of the story that was actually done in Revenge of the Sith.

Well i'm 27 and I probably like ROTJ more than the first one. Like everyone I can skip the ewoks, but I think I will always love ROTJ just for the Vader v Luke fight at the end, music swell and all. Not arguing it on a technical level but I don't see some of the criticisms that are being levelled at it compared to the others, but hey different strokes and all that, Star Wars has always had a great deal of hokum.

Best recent Star Wars thing though has been the Attack of the Clones TV series, it makes up for a lot of information gaps and generally improves the prequel trilogy by making it less nonsensical.

I'm still holding out some hope for Admiral Thrawn.

I feel like ROTJ is unfairly criticized. I mean, I would agree that the first two films are superior, and that Empire is the best, but ROTJ has a lot going for it, imo. I love the battle above the Sarlacc Pit, the Dagobah stuff with Ghost Obi-Wan, leading up to/beyond Yoda's death, the Luke/Vader/Palpatine confrontation, and the Death Star II fight. I think it's mostly the stuff in Jabba's Palace and the Ewoks that draw the criticism.

You see lazarus, namkcuR and LJT also tend to agree with me in that ROTJ is often unfairly criticized.

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

I feel like ROTJ is unfairly criticized. I mean, I would agree that the first two films are superior, and that Empire is the best, but ROTJ has a lot going for it, imo. I love the battle above the Sarlacc Pit, the Dagobah stuff with Ghost Obi-Wan, leading up to/beyond Yoda's death, the Luke/Vader/Palpatine confrontation, and the Death Star II fight. I think it's mostly the stuff in Jabba's Palace and the Ewoks that draw the criticism.

I agree with all of this. The super star destroyer crashing into the death star is one of my favourite moments in all the series.

 

[IWasBored]

Is a space age science fiction fantasy. Limits like you describe don't exist.


.

The nature of sci fi or fantasy settings is that yes, details like the life span of a normal human character are flexible. Did they develop some crazy nano technology that lets people live six times of what normal humans on real life live? Did we absorb the essence of a being that normally lives 1000 years when we stabbed it with a vampiric dagger? How about forming a bond with a magical artifact that makes you immortal? All of these are perfectly within the realm of reason in a scifi or fantasy setting. The thing is, they become established by the writers who work within that world, and when you suddenly introduce a new element out of the blue, it reeks of bullshit--from either a weak world building stance, or a blatant disregard for working within an established setting.

I'm not an expert on the EU, I've read maybe 10 novels over the years as I tend to enjoy fantasy over scifi when it comes to fiction. But show me where in the established Star Wars lore out there (extra points for it being considered actual canon) it would make sense that all of a sudden humans are living 400 years vs the similar to real world life spans that non-force sensitive humans tend to live.

You're throwing things at a wall, hoping it will stick. Just because it could exist, doesn't mean it does exist, doesn't mean it makes sense all of a sudden (out of nowhere, with no legitimacy as to its origins--because in a setting as developed as SW, you cant just go, "oh hey, all of a sudden Han and Leia can live to 300 years old," without some serious background) just because some random dude on the Internet says it would be cool.

 

[the tourist]

I like Return of the Jedi more than A New Hope.

 

[Buk]

The nature of sci fi or fantasy settings is that yes, details like the life span of a normal human character are flexible. Did they develop some crazy nano technology that lets people live six times of what normal humans on real life live? Did we absorb the essence of a being that normally lives 1000 years when we stabbed it with a vampiric dagger? How about forming a bond with a magical artifact that makes you immortal? All of these are perfectly within the realm of reason in a scifi or fantasy setting. The thing is, they become established by the writers who work within that world, and when you suddenly introduce a new element out of the blue, it reeks of bullshit--from either a weak world building stance, or a blatant disregard for working within an established setting.

I'm not an expert on the EU, I've read maybe 10 novels over the years as I tend to enjoy fantasy over scifi when it comes to fiction. But show me where in the established Star Wars lore out there (extra points for it being considered actual canon) it would make sense that all of a sudden humans are living 400 years vs the similar to real world life spans that non-force sensitive humans tend to live.

You're throwing things at a wall, hoping it will stick. Just because it could exist, doesn't mean it does exist, doesn't mean it makes sense all of a sudden (out of nowhere, with no legitimacy as to its origins--because in a setting as developed as SW, you cant just go, "oh hey, all of a sudden Han and Leia can live to 300 years old," without some serious background) just because some random dude on the Internet says it would be cool.

Relax, at a minimum, a 72 year Harrison Ford, a 57 year old Fisher and 63 year old Hamill would have no problem handling the next three movies of a Star Wars space age Science Fiction Fantasy. Again there are in fact people in their 70s in the real world, that actually body build, power lift, and run marathons and are in better physical condition than 90% of the high school college age youth in the United States and around the world. That's reality, not science fiction or fantasy. So lets leave this ageism crap at the front door. If JJ following Lucas wants it to be about a different generation then fine. But don't make it about a different generation because somehow people think Ford is TOO OLD and Cringe worthy. That's simply not accurate. Ford at 72 can still perform every action sequence he has ever done in his life. Perhaps he does not look as SEXY doing it, but you don't watch action films for sex!

 

[lazarus]

The positive things I listed about ROTJ are not cheap thrills. There are fantastic actions elements combined with great acting, especially by Ian as the Emperor. The first two movies are a little more limited in scope in terms of what happens, while in ROTJ its a wild ride for everyone. It combines all the elements of the first two movies and adds even more.

By "cheap thrills", I'm referring to the slapstick-heavy action that makes up the majority of the skiff battle as well as the Endor fighting, which has more in common with The Three Stooges than what we saw in the previous two films. Blind Han Solo stumbling around dispatching with enemies, or the beyond incompetent Stormtroopers and imperial soldiers.

And you find Jedi to be greater in scope? How? We return to the same planet we saw in the first film, and only see a fraction of it, centered solely around Jabba's environs. We visit a carbon-copy of the enemy stronghold from the first film. And we go back to Dagobah, seeing no more of it than before. As for new planets, the previous film gave us Dagobah and Hoth, two climates that most people haven't even visited, let alone lived in. For this film, the only new location is Endor, a generic forest that is about as far from exotic as it gets.

One of the major problems with Jedi is how much of a retread it is, seeming my bereft of ideas. Aside from the great creation of Jabba and the material with Palpatine, it's just not very imaginative by comparison.

The Prequals are ok, but they are not on the level of the IV, V, and VI. I prefer the special effects of the original movies to anything scene in the Prequals. I prefer giant sets, models built, and real explosions on set, plus characters with mask and costumes, to anything the CGI offered. CGI may be cheaper and easier, but to me it does not look as real and when there is too much of it, the movie starts to look like a Saturday Morning cartoon. Lucas also screwed up the storyline in the prequals by having Anikan start out as a little child. It should have started when he was Luke's age with the first film, his turn to the dark side in the 2nd film, and then the third film following much of the story that was actually done in Revenge of the Sith.

If you actually read about the effects in the prequels, you would know that there were a lot of practical effects used, and if I'm not mistaken more than in any film from the OT. Lucas combined models, masks, and sets with CGI elements. If you OMG care for the results, so be it.

And your criticism of Anakin's age during the first movie means you're just another bitter fan who can't judge the movies fairly because they're not what you wanted to see (which is I'm guessing more "cool" action scenes). I have issues with the execution of that story arc, but not its conception.

In the end, your position is typical: a Gen-Xer who can't acknowledge the flaws of the the original trilogy (particularly the most inept installment) because houte viewing it through rose-colored, children's glasses, and conversely can't appreciate the merits of the prequels because you view those through a cynical, traditionalist adult prism.

Thanks for playing.

 

[namkcuR]

If you actually read about the effects in the prequels, you would know that there were a lot of practical effects used, and if I'm not mistaken more than in any film from the OT. Lucas combined models, masks, and sets with CGI elements. If you OMG care for the results, so be it.

And your criticism of Anakin's age during the first movie means you're just another bitter fan who can't judge the movies fairly because they're not what you wanted to see (which is I'm guessing more "cool" action scenes). I have issues with the execution of that story arc, but not its conception.

In the end, your position is typical: a Gen-Xer who can't acknowledge the flaws of the the original trilogy (particularly the most inept installment) because houte viewing it through rose-colored, children's glasses, and conversely can't appreciate the merits of the prequels because you view those through a cynical, traditionalist adult prism.

I can't speak for him, but my own criticism of Anakin's age during the first movie isn't about it not being what I wanted to see. In fact, I'm not one of the Gen-Xers you refer to, I was born in 1984 and didn't even see the OT in its entirety for the first time until the mid-90s when I was 11 or 12, only a few years before TPM. Going into TPM, I didn't have the decades-long expectations that the people who'd seen the OT in theaters had. I was a fan of TPM when I first saw it, and it still has a place in my heart and on some days it's my favorite of the prequels - the dual of the fates is possibly the best dual in the whole saga.

But perhaps my biggest issue with the prequels is that they are not narratively consistent with some things that were said and seen in the OT. Like Anakin's age when Obi-Wan first meets him.

In ROTJ, Ghost Obi-Wan tells Luke, very clearly, that the first time he met Anakin, Anakin was already a great pilot. And then Obi-Wan meets Anakin, and Anakin is a kid. Some people say, 'he was a kid but he was a great pilot too, he flew a plane in the movie, etc', but that doesn't sit well with me either. The way Ghost Obi-Wan said it, it clearly made it sound like Anakin was grown when they met.

Also, in ROTJ, Anakin - in the unmasking scene and especially when Ghost Sebastian Shaw shows up - is a 60-70 year old man. Which means he should've been 40-50 when he became Vader at the end of the PT, but he was supposed to be, like, what, 30 at most in ROTS?

In short, I feel like starting out with Anakin as a kid made things not line up with the OT.

That's not the only inconsistency either, there's also the whole thing with Leia saying she remembers her real mom in ROTJ even though she died at birth in ROTS.

It just feels like in some cases Lucas either didn't remember what his own movies said and didn't bother to check, or he just didn't care.

That is my opinion, and I'm not some bitter person who still has the bad taste of TPM opening day 1999 in my mouth, because one, at 14 years of age, I couldn't have been more excited upon leaving the theater, and two, well, I didn't actually see it on opening day.

 

[Diemen]

If I were to say your goldfish, cat, and blow up doll echoing your own opinion doesn't count, I wonder if diemen would come in here and tell me that wasn't nice. Probably.

At any rate, anyone who makes the argument "well, I know more people who think ___, so it must be the truth," is an idiot.

Wonder no more. I know it's such fun to bash the newbie who we don't agree with, but the argument can be done without resorting to cheap insults.

 

[lazarus]

In ROTJ, Ghost Obi-Wan tells Luke, very clearly, that the first time he met Anakin, Anakin was already a great pilot. And then Obi-Wan meets Anakin, and Anakin is a kid. Some people say, 'he was a kid but he was a great pilot too, he flew a plane in the movie, etc', but that doesn't sit well with me either. The way Ghost Obi-Wan said it, it clearly made it sound like Anakin was grown when they met.

There are far better examples of inconsistency than that one. He was a great pilot by any parameters in TPM: first human to win a pod race, taking on that Trade Federation fleet without ever having piloted a spacecraft before, etc.

Ghost Obi-Wan's appearance in ROTJ was one of its worst scenes (THE GHOST SITS DOWN ON A FUCKING LOG), so I don't really pay it much mind. As for how he says the line, I'm not sure how you'd infer age, but whatever.

 

[dazzledbylight]

I don't know why everyone seems to trip over themselves to shit on ROTJ... Even if it's not as good as the first two, I'd find it hard to believe that people don't at least still get enjoyment out of watching it.

Saw all the OT in oringinal release. Became quite involved in SW Zine fandom in mid-late 80's. Most of my friends from there and some of my f2f friends with whom I'd see various SF type movies with thought the about last 45 mins of ROJ were as good as the first 2 ( or V and VI ) .

MY all round favorite still remains ESB.

And I and others (from SWZinedom) -a good bunch also really enjoyed various parts of all three Pre-quals. (me- mostly 1 & 3, but some 2) I'm talking people who were mostly orignal OT viewers and more heavily into Swzinedom before I joined in.

shocking , I know!

---------------------------------

as for Trek... I loved the 1st reboot and really liked and loved parts of the 2nd.
I very much liked BC's Khan. (and no, I don't have "a thing" for him....and it probably shouldn't matter even if I did)
I mostly hated the OST Khan movie. Don't think I ever watched it on TV, and def don't own the CD. While I have ST:TMP, I don't think I ever got The Voyage Home (saw it plenty of times on TV) - didn't have a video player back then. Later on got , The Undiscovered Country on DVD it's both moving and, quite funny. It really echoes some of what it was like during The Cold War period of mistrust.

 

[Danny Boy]

This is nothing short of awesome.

http://vimeo.com/93653271

 

[dazzledbylight]

namkcuR wow you're right (I forgot) re Leia says she remembers her mother...Luke replies I have no memory of my mother.
that's a pretty glaring inconsistency.

i was making up my own prequals in 84 or so. Based on that original ROJ statement i had Leia & Luke's mom was still alive and i had the twins separated around 18 months or so.

 

[bono_212]

She doesn't say she remembers her biological mother, just her mother.

 

[lazarus]

He actually says "Do you remember your mother--your real mother?"

 

[mikal]

That would be cool if Food says "Get off my plane" at least I've during this movie.

Sent from my HTC One M8 using the U2 Interference Mobile app

 

[bono_212]

He actually says "Do you remember your mother--your real mother?"

She didn't have any reason to believe she was adopted, though, did she? The most she could do is kinda give him a weird look at his emphasis on "real"

That would be cool if Food says "Get off my plane" at least I've during this movie.

Sent from my HTC One M8 using the U2 Interference Mobile app

Food can't talk.

 

[LemonMelon]

Give him a break, he said he sent that from his HTC One M8 using the U2 Interference Mobile app.

 

[Buk]

By "cheap thrills", I'm referring to the slapstick-heavy action that makes up the majority of the skiff battle as well as the Endor fighting, which has more in common with The Three Stooges than what we saw in the previous two films. Blind Han Solo stumbling around dispatching with enemies, or the beyond incompetent Stormtroopers and imperial soldiers.

.

I thought they did a great job with the Skiff battle as well as the Endor fighting. There are a few scenes with Ewoks and Stormtroopers that don't look real, but other than that they did a great job. Both battles are reasons I like ROTJ better than the other two films. Blind Han Solo actually presented a little bit of realism. Accidents happen all the time in battle and it was indeed an accident that he hit Fett and caused him to crash into the Pit.

And you find Jedi to be greater in scope? How? We return to the same planet we saw in the first film, and only see a fraction of it, centered solely around Jabba's environs. We visit a carbon-copy of the enemy stronghold from the first film. And we go back to Dagobah, seeing no more of it than before. As for new planets, the previous film gave us Dagobah and Hoth, two climates that most people haven't even visited, let alone lived in. For this film, the only new location is Endor, a generic forest that is about as far from exotic as it gets.

One of the major problems with Jedi is how much of a retread it is, seeming my bereft of ideas. Aside from the great creation of Jabba and the material with Palpatine, it's just not very imaginative by comparison.

Its a two hour movie, not a mini-series let alone an entire TV series. The fact that they would have to return to Tatooine and have it involve only Jabba is obvious. That was already set in place at the end of the Empire Strikes Back. What else were you expecting? Going back To Dagobah a very small purpose and that was quickly and well done, preserving more screen time for the main and most important parts of the movie. The Endor Forest was much more interesting than the HOTH or Dagobah scenes from Empire. HOTH simply served as a battlefield, Dagobah looks training. The Endor scenes had better color and imagery. Plus Endor was shot in the California Red Wood forest which has the largest trees on the planet if not the entire Universe. Generic? Far from it.
Jedi does not appear to be a retread at all, unless of course you feel the appearance of Star Destroyers, a Death Star, and a light saber battle with Darth Vader to be retreading.

 

[lazarus]

Ok dude.

 

[lemonfly]

Blind Han Solo actually presented a little bit of realism. Accidents happen all the time in battle and it was indeed an accident that he hit Fett and caused him to crash into the Pit.

I gotta say that Fett's demise was cheesy, undignified and unworthy beyond belief for a character of such unrivalled badassery.

 

[Buk]

I gotta say that Fett's demise was cheesy, undignified and unworthy beyond belief for a character of such unrivalled badassery.

Fett looks like a badass, but the movies really don't show that he is. After all, he failed to catch Solo on his own. He fired his gun a few times at Luke and missed each time in Empire Strikes Back. Given that, his demise was rather consistent with his prowess up to that point.

 

[lazarus]

Folks, what we're dealing with here is a very sophisticated kind of troll, the likes of which we've never seen before.

Proceed with caution.

 

[namkcuR]

She didn't have any reason to believe she was adopted, though, did she? The most she could do is kinda give him a weird look at his emphasis on "real"

I think she's definitely supposed to know that she's adopted:

In reality, at the time Jedi was written, the backstory was different. The original script included an extended scene between Luke and Obi-Wan (which can be seen in the Jedi novelization by James Kahn), where Obi-Wan explains that both he and their mother wanted to protect them from the Emperor as long as possible; Obi-Wan therefore took Luke to the Lars family on Tatooine, while their mother took Leia to Alderaan (Obi-Wan also curiously refers to Owen Lars as his brother, an offhand comment which is never explained). It therefore can be implied that "Mrs. Skywalker" originally survived long enough for Leia to have a real, genuine memory of her.

 

[Buk]

I think she's definitely supposed to know that she's adopted:

Thanks for bringing this up. I wish Lucas had stuck with the original way the prequals were going to be. I'm still glad he did them, but is older original ideas were much better than what he came up with in the 1990s.

 

[bono_212]

I gotta say that Fett's demise was cheesy, undignified and unworthy beyond belief for a character of such unrivalled badassery.

Yeah, in fanboy heads after years of made-up back story. He barely does in anything in the actual movies. I've never understood the hype.

He's cool as fuck in the EU, but that's it.

 

[the tourist]

Yeah, in fanboy heads after years of made-up back story. He barely does in anything in the actual movies. I've never understood the hype.

He's cool as fuck in the EU, but that's it.

Completely agreed.

 

[lazarus]

Whatever, he was pulling in tail left and right at Jabba's.

Cool As Hoth.