Sydney Riots

[intedomine]

It's disgraceful...but not all that surprising.

Although we hate to admit it, there has always been underlying racism and intolerance in Australian society. Whilst most of us are tolerant, there are many white supremicists in Australia and many people who hate the idea of integrating with anyone who does not identify with supposed Australian values and the way of life.

Also, notice how the riots happened in Sydney? In comparison with Melbourne, Sydney has always been an intense, hate-filled city. In Melbourne, and particularly in areas such as Dandenong
and St Albans, there does exist some spotfires of racial tension, yet they are unlikely to escalate, because people are much more down to earth and friendly down here.

Seriously, if you are thinking of taking a trip to Australia. Melbourne is the place to go. Not only do we have a tremendous nightlife and places to shop, but we also draw better art, music and fashion exhibitions. And of course, we are unofficially the sporting capital of the world. Sydney can't boast an F1 GP, a grand slam tennis tournament and their own sport (Aussie Rules Footy). We had the Olympics 44 years before them anyway.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

 

[A_Wanderer]

Jennifer Cornwall, who is writing a municipal history of the shire, said Sunday’s riot was part of a continuing problem fanned by the rise of Pauline Hanson, Tampa and terrorists. “Now they’re fighting the ‘Lebs’, as they call them, but I have a 1974 report by the council on problems between locals and so-called ‘wogs’ that talks about parochialism and racism,” she said. “Before that, the locals fought the ‘Bankies’. Really, it’s partly about protecting your territory from outsiders and sticking with your mates."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/an-angry-ride-into-the-dark-side-of-mateship/2005/12/12/1134236006264.html

 

[Angela Harlem]

Intedomine, I'm going to assume you are very knowledgeable on Sydney and it's particular brand of racial tension which reaches all levels and cultures? I cant speak very well on Melbourne, as I've only been there 3 or 4 times in my life and my opinion of the place is not relevant as it does not accurately display what Melbourne probably is.
But anyway, where abouts did you live? Cabramatta or somewhere, I assume? That entire region is filled with a vast amount of hate among the groups living there. You've entirely skipped the very complicated problem with assimilation their cultures face with immigration which is fuelled by hateful ignorant youth on all sides who do nothing to harmoniously work these things out but instead thrive on the rush of a police line armed with shields and capsicum spray, and the resultant expectant mother media who salivate to report it in the most dramatic tabloid-esque way. But I'm sure you're very well understood on it regardless, and are aware that it is not at all a black and white issue.

 

[intedomine]

Intedomine, I'm going to assume you are very knowledgeable on Sydney and it's particular brand of racial tension which reaches all levels and cultures? I cant speak very well on Melbourne, as I've only been there 3 or 4 times in my life and my opinion of the place is not relevant as it does not accurately display what Melbourne probably is.
But anyway, where abouts did you live? Cabramatta or somewhere, I assume? That entire region is filled with a vast amount of hate among the groups living there. You've entirely skipped the very complicated problem with assimilation their cultures face with immigration which is fuelled by hateful ignorant youth on all sides who do nothing to harmoniously work these things out but instead thrive on the rush of a police line armed with shields and capsicum spray, and the resultant expectant mother media who salivate to report it in the most dramatic tabloid-esque way. But I'm sure you're very well understood on it regardless, and are aware that it is not at all a black and white issue.

Sorry, couldn't resist having a stab at Sydney.

I've only been to Swan City a few times, and it seems like an ok place, and quite similar to Melbourne in it's ethnic make-up.

Yet whenever you seem to hear about such rioting in Australia, more often then not it is happening in Sydney. Take Redfern earlier in this very same year for example. And supposedly the rioting that happens at soccer matches in Sydney is even more intense then in Melbourne.

I just wonder what it is that makes the ethnic tension in Sydney more fiery and palpable than in Melbourne?

The most significant thing about these riots, I feel, is that they are drawing a massive, and unusual, particiaption rate amongst Anglo-Saxon Australia, which is quite amazing, and I have never seen anything like it.

 

[indra]

I just wonder what it is that makes the ethnic tension in Sydney more fiery and palpable than in Melbourne?

I wonder if it's just because it hasn't actually blown up in Melbourne yet. I find lots of times people don't know what is actually going on around them until it explodes. I've heard so many people say "oh that would never happen in my town" and then in the next month or so, guess what happens? Yep, the very thing that they said would never happen there.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I think that anybody involved in violence should have their welfare cut for a year

 

[dazzlingamy]

I don't agree that there is an underlying 'white supremicist' movement of people who hate multicultural, its just, until about 50 or so years ago Australia was a mainly white country (aside from tradiontional aboriginal land owners, but we wont go ther eon this particular occasion) and so a lot of the old 'rsl' men and women etc do seem rather 'kic them all out' but then they'd be just as ashamed by all the "surfies" "druggies" and "hippies" who were the ones who instigated the riot anyway.

I believe on a whole that most racial tension isn't between anglo saxon australians and others but between other races whos hatred spills from their homeland rather then flare up here. Also, most of the "racism" was young men and women, drunk as all fuck trying to get a few swipes at a police officer to impress their friends. You know how mobs get, get a bunch of humans together and we are the biggest dumb arses in the world.

I also live in Melbourne (and St Albans!) and while there are a few ethinic groups that drag past each others hang outs in some fake bravado most of it is left to mutterings and side comments, which EVERYONE does!

I just hope the world realises that really this who "race" thing was some lifeguards getting bashed (who knows why??) by some "middle eastern" appearance people and then a bunch of drunk idiots taking it all too far. And lets not forget our wonderful media that hypes a fart into a tsunami! *rolls eyes*

I love my multicultural australia!!! *hugs it*

 

[A_Wanderer]

I think that multiculturalism as a means of hate speech legislation and carte balnche celebration of all cultural practices is wrong. Multiculturalism in terms of the Greeks, Italians, Vietnamese, Chinese and the Lebanese Christians has functioned without ridiculous government meddling. It is also important that people see the White Australia Policy for what it was, a means of labour protection.

 

[Kieran McConville]

I don't really know what I think about all this, and in a lot of way it's none of my business - it's a long way from Sydney to my corner of this wide browned land.

That said, I won't be taking much advice from you, A_wanderer, on how to interpret the events. I'm surprised you haven't blamed it all on the islamofascists yet.

If it's not about welfare/labor/libruls, it must be the islamofascists, right?

PS yes the white australia policy was about protecting 'white' labour - does that mean all policies to protect labour are tainted? I mean, does it? Cause if that is what you believe, just say so.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Wow projection much if im not making an argument that I completely dissociate in my prior posts then I must secretly have that argument on the tip of my tongue, gee whiz you have me down to a t. Oh wait, that hasn't at all been what I was thinking and you have taken the concept of Islamic terrorism and the political aims of some groups and projected it upon what I think of gang violence.

As you are no doubt aware Islamofascist as a term is used to describe a social and political ideology of certain groups that seeks to impose a form of theocratic governance that is totalitarian in nature and uses divine authority from the Koran to justify it. Since reading furthur into the topic I have come to the conclusion that the term is too blanket and cannot adequately describe the varied forms of political Islam and the different and disparate groups that expouse the Koran as being the justification for governance. The Lebanese thugs involved in harrassing women, beating up lifeguards or running reprisals hardly fall into this category. But hey if you want to play my hand as being a bigoted cunt the best of luck to you, since I have absolutely no problem in arguing my position of the white violence being one of the most digusting displays of beer fueled racist nationalism that I have seen and the Lebanese gang violence both initially and in retalliation being despicable examples of how louts undermine civil society.

The White Australia comment was a justified point in reaction too comments about Australian racism and the history of it, it highlights that sometimes racist policies are not without a little justification and the source of them cannot be pinned down on the right perpetually. An important point to make when people are bringing it up as a classic example of Australian racism without context or explaination. It is not bashing labour protections making them seem as a lingering piece of racism regardless of what ill-attributed views you wish to project upon me.

The issue of welfare in riots should not be overlooked in cases where you have community welfare dependence - I think that the economic factors influencing culture are more valid points than any intrinsic racial or aquired religious meaning and I have consistently argued that point over Redfern, Maquarie Fields and the recent Paris riots, all instances of communities with some common factors and similar sparking events. It is a valid argument beyond race or religion, it is not saying that removing every safety net would prevent violence from happening, it is saying that in instances of poor welfare dependent communities devoid of employment opportunity violence becomes an inevitablity. [This Portion Is Valid In the Listed Cases, it May Not Be Valid in this Case]

Oh and the "libruls" thing, I mean come-on, I have more in common with classical liberalism than any conservative, I imagine that creating an amalgamated Right Wing Death Beast in me would do away with such nuances.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

I think that anybody involved in violence should have their welfare cut for a year

I may be completely reading an incorrect suggestion within the above, but unemployment within the Cronulla area is at around 3%. If the IR scare hasn't changed things too much, this is an area that has become an incredibly strong pro-Howard region and one that Howard himself has often claimed as being his perfect little picture of Australian middle class perfection. Like I said, I may of course be reading your suggestion wrong, but if you think the Shire area of Sydney and these fuckwits running around on Sunday were doped up, unemployed, dole bludging, pothead, surfie, criminal scum - you'd be wrong. These are blue collar, 'Howards battlers', talkback radio believing, Hanson-adoring, hard working people. I think it's that which has made people so fucking disgusted, and that which has sent the blame aimed outwards towards the politicians and media that have fuelled this.

In regards to both the Bogan and Lebanese groups involved in all of this violence, as far as I'm concerned, "a curse on both your houses" and all that.

 

[A_Wanderer]

In regards to both the Bogan and Lebanese groups involved in all of this violence, as far as I'm concerned, "a curse on both your houses" and all that

Good we all agree on something.

Big thumbsup to evidence based criticsm it is apreciated.

Although I would just like to check the property values and median income of of the suburb, as well as the instigators of the violence and their situation (where they live) when they are procecuted. I am more than happy to admit that I am wrong.

The type of banter at a bit like this certainly wouldn't change my mind about attitudes.

 

[A_Wanderer]

I would just raise two blog posts that created the impression,

http://badanalysis.com/catallaxy/index.php?cat=26

http://www.sauer-thompson.com/archives/philosophy/2005/12/cronulla_the_au.html

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Below are the last census stats for the Sutherland Shire area.

By no means am I defending these people, A_Wanderer, the kind of talk in that link above would be something you could fully expect to overhear on a Saturday night in a pub in that area. I was just making sure you didn't paint them into the wrong stereotype. It's an equally fucked up stereotype, but it's the wrong one. There's always a long running argument in Sydney about 'the Shire', which I'm sure I could easily ignite in here. Unfortunately there is a stereotype that often shows it's head down there. But it comes from a middle class, working background. There are plenty of articles, particulary on the SMH website, that talk about the region.

If this were all taking place within Bankstown, all locals of Bankstown and it's demographic, anglo's fighting lebanese within Bankstown, this would be covered a little differently.

Anyway, Shire stats:

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/absc...6cb60006bf37/8952e839a022289bca256d0800226463!OpenDocument

 

[A_Wanderer]

Thanks for the data, I think that when they trace back the SMS messages and start making arrests it will may clear a few things up. Mob mentality can be very useful and it can easily be harnessed by certain groups.

 

[CrashedCarDriver]

this is ridiculous

my solution

send the lebanese people back to lebanon

because its obvious that they want to make australia lebanon

if you miss your home so much and want to make australia something that resembles your home, then why dont you go back there

im sure playing basketball with security guards holding ak47s outside is a much better country to live in than what australia has to offer

 

[Angela Harlem]

I'm quite sure you dont truly believe all that shit, so I am not going to bite by pointing out all the errors in your er..reply - but it makes me wonder if you are actually aware that you dont have to be white, even, to be Australian? Novel, huh?!

 

[dazzlingamy]

uhm, are you serious crashedcar driver? cause if you are, shame shame shame!!!

Obviously you can't see outside the little box you live in...

 

[AcrobatMan]

someone once said "did anyone die of riot yet", then its okay.

i want him to say the same thing here.

someone once justified the riots by saying that government didnt proper care for them.

i want them them to justify these riots again.

 

[evieangelique]

It's disgraceful...but not all that surprising.

Although we hate to admit it, there has always been underlying racism and intolerance in Australian society. Whilst most of us are tolerant, there are many white supremicists in Australia and many people who hate the idea of integrating with anyone who does not identify with supposed Australian values and the way of life.

I'm a Sydney resident, I live on the Northen beaches and I'm not white, and I totally agree with this sentiment.

 

[A_Wanderer]

YOUNG Sydney Muslims have posted messages on an Islamic web forum saying the city's Lebanese gangs need to be taught a lesson because they are giving Muslims a bad name.

Postings on the Muslim Village forum in the lead-up to Sunday's violent rally at Cronulla reveal a high level of frustration at the actions of some of the Lebanese gangs that have been accused of harassing beachgoers and bashing two lifeguards.

One message says: "It is about time drastic measures are taken to put an end to these idiots once and for all, because I, like other Muslims, am sick of being tarnished with all this crap … The Lebanese community has suffered immensely because of these misguided youth."

Another says: "These idiots need to be taught a lesson … Makes you wonder what type of parents they have."

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2005/12/13/1134236064334.html

 

[intedomine]

this is ridiculous

my solution

send the lebanese people back to lebanon

because its obvious that they want to make australia lebanon

if you miss your home so much and want to make australia something that resembles your home, then why dont you go back there

im sure playing basketball with security guards holding ak47s outside is a much better country to live in than what australia has to offer

I can actually see where you are coming from, but I don't agree the slightest.

And you seem to have forgotten the massive role played by the "white" Australians in the whole drama. They were the ones who instigated the remarkable events on the particular night that the riots kicked off.

The funny thing about these riots is that the most of the people in the Lebanese gangs are probably Australian born, yet cling strongly on to the homeland and values of their parents (or even grandparents) heritage.

Hence you can't kick them out. And to do so would be genocide, and would echo the extermination policies carried out in places such as WW2 Europe and Bosnia.

But there does indeed exist a willingness amongst some people of some ethnic minorities to model themselves (despite being Aussie-born), to selectively choose particular styles of fashion, accents and opinions.

They may despise rugby league and aussie rules footy, and only listen to hip hop or whatever is fashionable for their particular demographic at that time.

Many will deliberately attempt to divert as far away as possible from typical "Australian-ness" and dissociate with white or asian Australians.

It is indeed a power struggle in Sydney I reckon, and it is these deliberately chosen differences that has, in part, bred hate between people of different ethnic backgrounds.

But I prefer to view the riots in Sydney as motivated not necessarily by skin colour or ethnicity, but as a struggle between people who adopt oppositional ways of life. An intolerance of the way others' conduct themselves.

It exists. "Wog" culture, "Bogan" culture, an array of different "Asian" cultures.

They clash, but in the end, they are all Australian ways of life, and some people can't accept that their way of life is undermined or ignored by others.

 

[Halifax]

Since we’re talking about identity and what culture immigrants should adopt, here’s my view:

I’m an Australian born Vietnamese and I never really had a big identity crises. It’s probably because I live and went to primary school at Springvale, a suburb where the inhabitants are pretty much 90% Asian (Melbournian’s might recognize that suburb!), but to answer the question of “who am I?” I just say that I’m an Australian born Vietnamese or Vietnamese Australian and just basically get it over and done with.

But on the other hand, I could definitely understand the issues surrounding identity and young people asking “who am I?” On one hand, you got a voice telling you to assimilate and adopt an “Australian way of life”, on the other you got another voice cursing you in abandoning your culture. People are just confused on which voice to reconcile. And especially since Australia is suffering under the looming threat of a terrorist attack instigated by frustrated youth fueled by an extremist brand of Islam, the pressure to assimilate is higher than ever.

For me personally, I just do what I like, where what clothes I like, listen to what music I like, talk how I like and eat what I like…and I honestly don’t care if my actions, clothes, music of choice or food is “Australian” or “Vietnamese”. So if there are people telling me I’m not assimilating enough or that I’m not “Vietnamese” enough…well…honestly….they could go fuck themselves .

I guess the whole crux of the identity issue is that people seem to desire a metaphorical label over there heads reading “ITALIAN”, “VIETNAMESE”, “LEBENESE” or “AUSTRALIAN”. When asked “who are you?”, they could just look at that metaphorical label and give a comfortable answer.

Just in case if you guys are wondering, I reckon my cultural activities are pretty balanced. Just a few weeks ago I was going bonkers over Australia’s win over Uruguay in the world cup qualifying match while I was consuming a meat pie, a can of VB and wearing a green and gold polo shirt, and the next day I put on my traditional Vietnamese outfit and headed strait for my cousins traditional Vietnamese wedding.

But in terms of the recent riots, those drunk Aussie bogans bashing up every middle eastern person in sight and those thuggish Lebanese gangs who harass women and beat up lifeguards all deserve a big smack in the head.

 

[A_Wanderer]

VB = Vomit Bucket (it is the beer that somehow manages to stay at the bottom of the esky every time and single cans get shirked off to people repeatedly)

Coopers

 

[AcrobatMan]

hey i am not white

hey i am white

hey i am this

hey i am that

while I am wanting that in 100-400 years time we will have a world with NO COUNTRIES, NO RELIGION, NO DIFFERENCES...

All humans - and peace...

ps: all the terrorists would have been killed by then

 

[indra]

hey i am not white

hey i am white

hey i am this

hey i am that

while I am wanting that in 100-400 years time we will have a world with NO COUNTRIES, NO RELIGION, NO DIFFERENCES...

All humans - and peace...

Personally I wouldn't mind that at all, but an awfully lot of people are terrified of exactly that scenario. I'm not quite sure why, except to think that they are more interested in the difference between people than they are in the similarities.



(of course, if there are no differences in what everyone likes in music I sure hope my particular taste wins out..... ...not likely, but a girl can hope.... )

 

[anitram]

Australia from a distance always looked like a pretty progressive place.

However, every non-white person (mostly Indian) I know who has been there, whether for vacation or business has said they've never encountered such open and obvious racism as in Australia. Not in the UK, not in Africa where the locals hated them, not in North America. I must say I was sort of surprised. In fact, a coworker of mine who has a PhD from England and her husband (an engineer) went over a few years ago and she said she was so horrified that she'd never go back. It was the only time in his life that he chose to not wear his turban because of the comments and looks he was getting there.

Considering her kind of experience has been corroborated by at least a half dozen other individuals kind of makes me wonder whether in fact it wasn't an isolated case.

 

[Irvine511]

Australia from a distance always looked like a pretty progressive place.

However, every non-white person (mostly Indian) I know who has been there, whether for vacation or business has said they've never encountered such open and obvious racism as in Australia. Not in the UK, not in Africa where the locals hated them, not in North America. I must say I was sort of surprised. In fact, a coworker of mine who has a PhD from England and her husband (an engineer) went over a few years ago and she said she was so horrified that she'd never go back. It was the only time in his life that he chose to not wear his turban because of the comments and looks he was getting there.

Considering her kind of experience has been corroborated by at least a half dozen other individuals kind of makes me wonder whether in fact it wasn't an isolated case.

okay, i hate to add this to the mix, but i will just toss out there that i went on 2 dates with an australian. it pretty much ended because he was a racist. like, a straight-up, unapologetic racist. and i found this out after only 2 dates!

still, he was, like, a cancer researcher and lived in Baltimore so it wasn't like he was ignorant and uneducated. and his most racist thoughts were reserved for African-Americans.

that said, i still often wish i lived in Australia and the Australian interferencers are among the loveliest, smartest people in here and i know Australians who haven't a racist bone in their bodies, and i'd never let a single person speak for 30m people.

yet ... i was moved to say something. maybe i wish i hadn't, but i'll post it and see what happens.

 

[yolland]

Well since Irvine raised the issue of rampant generalizations...

Here in the US at least, we do have somewhat of a stereotype of Australian culture as being pervaded by a sort of rhetorical machismo, where "telling it like it is" is valorized to the point that expressing more nuanced views might cause you to be seen as a bit of a puff...perhaps with adverse consequences for the collective ability to acknowledge the dangers of shrugging off inflammatory rhetoric...?

This may very well be BS, but I would be curious to hear what our Australian posters have to say about this. Regrettably, I am too woefully uninformed about Australian culture myself to have the slightest idea.