phillyfan26
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That's true, he said he blamed God for the death of his daughter in one of the suicide notes, right?
School Shootings
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briarrose
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I think he said he was angry at God for taking his daughter. I've been reading a bunch of stuff on all of this. In one of the notes and during the phone call to his wife he said he was going to do what he had done 20 years ago (molested young children). He had been having reoccurring dreams about it and wanted to do it again. Scary stuff.
MrsSpringsteen
Blue Crack Addict
By Jeff Donn, Associated Press Writer | October 3, 2006
BOSTON --If the attacker at a Pennsylvania school really acted out of overwhelming guilt from molesting relatives in his youth, as police suggest, he would be a very rare breed, even in the bewildering annals of multiple murder, say experts in such crimes.
The history of school shootings and multiple murders is full of attackers who feel bullied or rejected at school, at work, or in marriage. They strike out for symbolic revenge, not out of tortured guilt. Several authorities contacted Tuesday were unable to point to a multiple killing clearly motivated by the latter.
Deluded parents who kill their children typically act out of a warped desire to save them from something worse, said Dr. Phillip Resnick, a psychiatrist at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland who testified in the trial of Andrea Yates, who drowned her young children in Texas.
In the Pennsylvania school shooting, the official explanation "just doesn't add up," Resnick said
At a news conference Tuesday, investigators laid out a murky scenario of how and why 32-year-old Charles Carl Roberts IV may have conceived of his attack in Nickel Mines, Pa.
He told his wife in a phone call from the one-room Amish school that he had molested two girl relatives, ages 3 to 5, two decades before, when he would have been about 12 years old. He indicated that, in recent years, he had dreamed repeatedly of those molestations and the possibility he'd molest someone again.
He also said he never recovered from the death nine years ago of his own baby girl, who was born prematurely. He said he had become furious with God and with himself.
It's likely he meant to sexually assault the girls, ages 6 to 13, according to authorities. He brought a sexual lubricant and ties, wood, and bolts that might be used to keep the girls still. He instead shot the girls methodically and then, as police stormed the school, fatally shot himself in the head. Five girls died, and five were hospitalized.
Several experts on violent minds said the suicidal behavior of the attacker makes sense if he still felt guilty over his sexual misconduct long ago. But the murder of the girls is harder to comprehend from a psychological viewpoint.
Perhaps Roberts came to view little girls as a painful reminder of losing his own, suggested psychologist Joseph Tecce at Boston College, who has studied the motivations of violence.
"He wants to exact his revenge against the little girls, because they have no right living since his little girl is dead," said Tecce. However, at least one of the attacker's own three living children is a daughter.
If Roberts felt painfully conflicted about a sexual desire for little girls, he might have blamed the children themselves and acted out his rage on them, one expert said. He might have considered them "responsible for his downfall," said criminal psychologist Eric Hickey at Alliant International University in Fresno, Calif.
If Roberts was tortured by guilt over molesting little girls in his youth, he'd more likely donate money to a school than kill students, said multiple-murder researcher Jack Levin, at Northeastern University in Boston.
"I've never heard of anything like that, never, never," he said. "Usually the killer feels he was a victim of injustice and wants sweet revenge."
Levin said it would be more plausible if the attacker had been caught molesting relatives, reprimanded, and perhaps ostracized by his peers -- even though his parents were said to deny any knowledge of him molesting anyone.
Whatever the psychological history of the attacker, his demons could have been uncorked with the attack in Colorado last week, when a man is said to have molested girls in a classroom before killing one and himself, several experts said.
"When the floodgates are full to the top and somebody sees them open in somebody else, sometimes they will act," said male-violence specialist William Pollack, a psychologist at McLean Hospital outside Boston.
BOSTON --If the attacker at a Pennsylvania school really acted out of overwhelming guilt from molesting relatives in his youth, as police suggest, he would be a very rare breed, even in the bewildering annals of multiple murder, say experts in such crimes.
The history of school shootings and multiple murders is full of attackers who feel bullied or rejected at school, at work, or in marriage. They strike out for symbolic revenge, not out of tortured guilt. Several authorities contacted Tuesday were unable to point to a multiple killing clearly motivated by the latter.
Deluded parents who kill their children typically act out of a warped desire to save them from something worse, said Dr. Phillip Resnick, a psychiatrist at Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland who testified in the trial of Andrea Yates, who drowned her young children in Texas.
In the Pennsylvania school shooting, the official explanation "just doesn't add up," Resnick said
At a news conference Tuesday, investigators laid out a murky scenario of how and why 32-year-old Charles Carl Roberts IV may have conceived of his attack in Nickel Mines, Pa.
He told his wife in a phone call from the one-room Amish school that he had molested two girl relatives, ages 3 to 5, two decades before, when he would have been about 12 years old. He indicated that, in recent years, he had dreamed repeatedly of those molestations and the possibility he'd molest someone again.
He also said he never recovered from the death nine years ago of his own baby girl, who was born prematurely. He said he had become furious with God and with himself.
It's likely he meant to sexually assault the girls, ages 6 to 13, according to authorities. He brought a sexual lubricant and ties, wood, and bolts that might be used to keep the girls still. He instead shot the girls methodically and then, as police stormed the school, fatally shot himself in the head. Five girls died, and five were hospitalized.
Several experts on violent minds said the suicidal behavior of the attacker makes sense if he still felt guilty over his sexual misconduct long ago. But the murder of the girls is harder to comprehend from a psychological viewpoint.
Perhaps Roberts came to view little girls as a painful reminder of losing his own, suggested psychologist Joseph Tecce at Boston College, who has studied the motivations of violence.
"He wants to exact his revenge against the little girls, because they have no right living since his little girl is dead," said Tecce. However, at least one of the attacker's own three living children is a daughter.
If Roberts felt painfully conflicted about a sexual desire for little girls, he might have blamed the children themselves and acted out his rage on them, one expert said. He might have considered them "responsible for his downfall," said criminal psychologist Eric Hickey at Alliant International University in Fresno, Calif.
If Roberts was tortured by guilt over molesting little girls in his youth, he'd more likely donate money to a school than kill students, said multiple-murder researcher Jack Levin, at Northeastern University in Boston.
"I've never heard of anything like that, never, never," he said. "Usually the killer feels he was a victim of injustice and wants sweet revenge."
Levin said it would be more plausible if the attacker had been caught molesting relatives, reprimanded, and perhaps ostracized by his peers -- even though his parents were said to deny any knowledge of him molesting anyone.
Whatever the psychological history of the attacker, his demons could have been uncorked with the attack in Colorado last week, when a man is said to have molested girls in a classroom before killing one and himself, several experts said.
"When the floodgates are full to the top and somebody sees them open in somebody else, sometimes they will act," said male-violence specialist William Pollack, a psychologist at McLean Hospital outside Boston.
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
CBS News FreeSpeech: Oct 2
Brian Rohrbough
Clearly something has happened in the past 30 years. Except for his usage of the word "terrorist", I agree with this man's words.
Brian Rohrbough
Clearly something has happened in the past 30 years. Except for his usage of the word "terrorist", I agree with this man's words.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
He can go fuck himself. Do parents have any responsibilty at all for their kids anymore, or am I supposed to teach them everything??
indra
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martha said:
He can go fuck himself. Do parents have any responsibilty at all for their kids anymore, or am I supposed to teach them everything??
I agree. I feel for the man because his son was killed, but he's way off base. If people want god in their kids' schools they can put their kids in religious schools. What they want is for everyone else to view things exactly the same way they do, and that's not going to happen, nor should it happen.
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
anitram said:
Maybe you haven't. One of the shooters was wearing a t-shirt that read "natural selection." And the infamous diaries told of their motivation to "kill off the weakest of the species."
A perversion of Darwin's teaching, yes, but as I said, something's going on.
deep
Blue Crack Addict
Maybe you haven't heard
but the guy who shot those 10 little girls in PA believed in God, not evolution. He brought God into the school room.
Too bad he was not an atheist.
but the guy who shot those 10 little girls in PA believed in God, not evolution. He brought God into the school room.
Too bad he was not an atheist.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
What's scary is this sounds like some of the posters in here.
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
BonoVoxSupastar said:
What's scary is this sounds like some of the posters in here.
Disagree if you choose, but scary?
(beat ya to it)This line of argument is completely absurd.
Why is it that in other places in the world, like Western Europe, where God has been "absent" in the classroom forever and there is no credence given to the oxymoron "intelligent design" there isn't this sort of rash of killings? Because your premise is faulty.
But hey, let's blame the secularists, the scientists and atheists for this.
Why is it that in other places in the world, like Western Europe, where God has been "absent" in the classroom forever and there is no credence given to the oxymoron "intelligent design" there isn't this sort of rash of killings? Because your premise is faulty.
But hey, let's blame the secularists, the scientists and atheists for this.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
INDY500 said:
Then do some kind of formal study and find out how many of these nutjobs were Christian and how many weren't before you decide that "something's going on" based on one guy with one shirt.
I don't base my sociological theories on one guy's t-shirt.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
INDY500 said:
Yes, scary.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
anitram said:
because it has just absolutely NOTHING to do with guns in American society.
just NOTHING.
it's because GOD (
) has been kicked out of our schools. yes, that MUST be it. we all need a little more Jesus, not gun control.
MrsSpringsteen
Blue Crack Addict
http://www.htrnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061004/MAN0101/61004054
MADISON — Following three violent school shootings that struck the nation in the past two weeks, including one in a small rural town in Wisconsin, State Rep. Frank Lasee, R-Bellevue, today announced his plans to introduce legislation that will allow teachers, principals, administrators, and other school personnel to carry concealed weapons.
The lawmaker said that while his idea may not be politically correct, it has worked effectively in other countries.
“To make our schools safe for our students to learn, all options should be on the table,” said Lasee. “Israel and Thailand have well-trained teachers carrying weapons and keeping their children safe from harm. It can work in Wisconsin.”
Israeli teachers and parent volunteers have been carrying concealed weapons in their classrooms for 25 years. Before teachers armed themselves, schools in the West Bank and Gaza Strip had been repeatedly attacked by Palestinian terrorists. Hundreds of children were killed. Not one child has been harmed by gunfire in an Israeli school since. ...
...Lasee said he wants to bring this proven program to Wisconsin. Lasee’s bill will not require all teachers and school personnel to carry weapons. It will simply give them the option. The proposal will require stringent training both on the range and in the classroom for any school employee who wants to carry concealed.
“We have a duty to protect our children,” said Lasee. “If we truly want to make our schools safe havens for learning, we should give our teachers and school employees access to the tools and training they need to protect our kids from harm.”
The lawmaker said he will offer the bill for co-sponsorship when the state legislature reconvenes early next year.
MADISON — Following three violent school shootings that struck the nation in the past two weeks, including one in a small rural town in Wisconsin, State Rep. Frank Lasee, R-Bellevue, today announced his plans to introduce legislation that will allow teachers, principals, administrators, and other school personnel to carry concealed weapons.
The lawmaker said that while his idea may not be politically correct, it has worked effectively in other countries.
“To make our schools safe for our students to learn, all options should be on the table,” said Lasee. “Israel and Thailand have well-trained teachers carrying weapons and keeping their children safe from harm. It can work in Wisconsin.”
Israeli teachers and parent volunteers have been carrying concealed weapons in their classrooms for 25 years. Before teachers armed themselves, schools in the West Bank and Gaza Strip had been repeatedly attacked by Palestinian terrorists. Hundreds of children were killed. Not one child has been harmed by gunfire in an Israeli school since. ...
...Lasee said he wants to bring this proven program to Wisconsin. Lasee’s bill will not require all teachers and school personnel to carry weapons. It will simply give them the option. The proposal will require stringent training both on the range and in the classroom for any school employee who wants to carry concealed.
“We have a duty to protect our children,” said Lasee. “If we truly want to make our schools safe havens for learning, we should give our teachers and school employees access to the tools and training they need to protect our kids from harm.”
The lawmaker said he will offer the bill for co-sponsorship when the state legislature reconvenes early next year.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
Yeah, let's be more like Israel and Thailand.
CTU2fan
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Great idea. Then when some teacher/administrator loses it and opens fire on some kid who was being a wiseass, then what?
Oh and I love the whole "it's because we have evolution in school & not God" argument. These people sicken me. People have been shot & killed, and the Right sees it as just another opportunity to advance their propaganda.
Oh and I love the whole "it's because we have evolution in school & not God" argument. These people sicken me. People have been shot & killed, and the Right sees it as just another opportunity to advance their propaganda.
yolland
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I would sure like to see some sources for Lasee's claims on the West Bank settlements policy (I checked his website, and no sources are provided there either). I don't doubt that teachers there carry guns--many, if not most, settlers do--but to the extent that this in itself is a proven deterrent to terrorist attacks, I'd imagine it involves security procedures that kick in long before the point at which the assassin strolls into the classroom. These are small schools in small communities and an approaching stranger would be easy to spot.
On the face of it, it seems very unlikely that an armed teacher would likely have been able to prevent the Colorado or Pennsylvania killings (and an Amish teacher wouldn't carry a gun anyway, but setting that aside for a moment). If I were going into a school armed and with the intent to harm or kill, God forbid, and assuming I was able to evade whatever perimeter security existed, I wouldn't even give the teacher a chance to draw their gun; I'd kill them immediately, then take at least one student hostage to give me leverage with anyone else who tried to challenge me. Which was exactly the dilemma the police faced in the Colorado and Pennsylvania shootings: it takes only an instant to take a hostage, and once you've done that, anyone else who tries to take you down risks indirectly bringing about the hostage's death. And what about the case of a student who brings a weapon to school, assuming no one catches them with the weapon before they have a chance to draw it? They would likely do the same.
However if any teachers in here want to make a case for why Lasee's idea might work, I'd be interested to hear it. I can't imagine most teachers wanting more guns in schools than there already are, though.
On the face of it, it seems very unlikely that an armed teacher would likely have been able to prevent the Colorado or Pennsylvania killings (and an Amish teacher wouldn't carry a gun anyway, but setting that aside for a moment). If I were going into a school armed and with the intent to harm or kill, God forbid, and assuming I was able to evade whatever perimeter security existed, I wouldn't even give the teacher a chance to draw their gun; I'd kill them immediately, then take at least one student hostage to give me leverage with anyone else who tried to challenge me. Which was exactly the dilemma the police faced in the Colorado and Pennsylvania shootings: it takes only an instant to take a hostage, and once you've done that, anyone else who tries to take you down risks indirectly bringing about the hostage's death. And what about the case of a student who brings a weapon to school, assuming no one catches them with the weapon before they have a chance to draw it? They would likely do the same.
However if any teachers in here want to make a case for why Lasee's idea might work, I'd be interested to hear it. I can't imagine most teachers wanting more guns in schools than there already are, though.
MrsSpringsteen
Blue Crack Addict
It seems rather ironic to me that people suggest more guns as a way to combat more guns. More summits damnit, that's what we need! I wonder if the NRA will attend..
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/schoolgirls-executed-in-t_b_30965.html
Schoolgirls Executed in Their Classroom: America Shrugs
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/schoolgirls-executed-in-t_b_30965.html
Schoolgirls Executed in Their Classroom: America Shrugs
MissMoo
Acrobat
Have any of you heard about the Baptist group that wants to protest at the funeral for these poor girls? Apparently they would be protesting so that everyone would realize the reason for their deaths is because of homosexuality. Luckily some conservative radio host has offered them an hour of on-air time to spout their bullshit in exchange for not protesting. I mean we can't believe someone would do what this guy did, but look at how crazy this group is, and insensitive, and obnoxious. Sure they're not killing anyone, but they are considered sane by some.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
it is shocking this hasn't gotten more coverage.
and i am fascinated at the Amish response, and of the Amish themselves:
[q]As the community struggled to comprehend the killer’s actions, families prepared for funerals. Horse-drawn buggies used by the Amish filled the field next to the home where a wake was being held for Naomi Rose Ebersole, 7. Children in bonnets clustered quietly in the yard, and women in long aprons carried casseroles to the door.
Mr. Zook said he and Emma Mae — his daughter — had gone to visit one of the wounded girls in the hospital that day. “That perked her right up,” he said. But at the sight of her in the hospital bed, with tubes attached to her body, Emma Mae fainted, he said. “She’s weak. She just went and sat down in a chair.”
Behind him, Emma Mae’s twin brother and a sister listened shyly to their father’s conversation. Mr. Zook’s wife, dressed in rubber boots, tended to chores.
Throughout this ordeal, the Amish, whose avoidance of vanity extends even to buttons and zippers, have been the object of fascination not just because of their old-fashioned dress and rejection of modern conveniences like cars and electricity, but because of their stoicism, faith and capacity for forgiveness.
Rita Rhoads, a midwife who helped in the births of two of the murdered girls, said the father of one told her that God had helped his daughter. “He said there was a battle between good and evil Monday, and good won,” Ms. Rhoads said. “He felt that way because the shooter was killed before he was able to carry out all of his plans.”
Investigators said they believed Mr. Roberts intended to sexually molest the girls but was interrupted by the arrival of the police.
Lil Nissley, whose daughters had been playmates with one of the victims, said she was at the farm where those fleeing the schoolhouse — the male students and the adult women — had taken refuge. “Any outsider would have said, what’s wrong with these calm people?” she said. “I mean, we were crying, we were praying, but we weren’t hysterical.”
But Ms. Nissley and her husband, David, who are not Amish, said the composure was a matter of culture and training, not suppression. “Their blood runs red,” Mr. Nissley said.
Still, it is not unusual for the Amish to reach out to those who hurt them. When an Amish dies in a car accident, for example, the motorist is often invited to the funeral. Mr. Zook said he had shaken hands with Mr. Roberts’s father-in-law, whom he encountered at the home of the Fisher family, who had three daughters in the school. One escaped, another was wounded and the third was killed. Mr. Zook said such encounters helped the survivors victims heal.
“I think it’s helping him to meet people too, and see that there’s no grudge,” he said of the father-in-law. “How could you hold a grudge against the wife, the family?”
As satellite trucks and reporters descended on the area, many residents said they felt protective of the Amish, who shun publicity. And many Amish said they did not blame the English, as they call their non-Amish neighbors, for what happened.
But the shootings still meant a loss of trust between the Amish and the modern world, especially for the young. One 34-year-old Amish man, who said he would not give his name because he did not want to attract attention, said that the day after the shooting he had to ask a reporter parked near an Amish schoolhouse to move along because her presence was scaring the children.
“She was just sitting there doing bookwork, but the kids were all hiding behind the school peeping around the side,” he said.
After all, they had just learned that the recent carnage occurred after an “Englishman” had parked his pickup truck in front of a school.
“It’s going to be a scar on them for some time,” the man said.[/q]
and i am fascinated at the Amish response, and of the Amish themselves:
[q]As the community struggled to comprehend the killer’s actions, families prepared for funerals. Horse-drawn buggies used by the Amish filled the field next to the home where a wake was being held for Naomi Rose Ebersole, 7. Children in bonnets clustered quietly in the yard, and women in long aprons carried casseroles to the door.
Mr. Zook said he and Emma Mae — his daughter — had gone to visit one of the wounded girls in the hospital that day. “That perked her right up,” he said. But at the sight of her in the hospital bed, with tubes attached to her body, Emma Mae fainted, he said. “She’s weak. She just went and sat down in a chair.”
Behind him, Emma Mae’s twin brother and a sister listened shyly to their father’s conversation. Mr. Zook’s wife, dressed in rubber boots, tended to chores.
Throughout this ordeal, the Amish, whose avoidance of vanity extends even to buttons and zippers, have been the object of fascination not just because of their old-fashioned dress and rejection of modern conveniences like cars and electricity, but because of their stoicism, faith and capacity for forgiveness.
Rita Rhoads, a midwife who helped in the births of two of the murdered girls, said the father of one told her that God had helped his daughter. “He said there was a battle between good and evil Monday, and good won,” Ms. Rhoads said. “He felt that way because the shooter was killed before he was able to carry out all of his plans.”
Investigators said they believed Mr. Roberts intended to sexually molest the girls but was interrupted by the arrival of the police.
Lil Nissley, whose daughters had been playmates with one of the victims, said she was at the farm where those fleeing the schoolhouse — the male students and the adult women — had taken refuge. “Any outsider would have said, what’s wrong with these calm people?” she said. “I mean, we were crying, we were praying, but we weren’t hysterical.”
But Ms. Nissley and her husband, David, who are not Amish, said the composure was a matter of culture and training, not suppression. “Their blood runs red,” Mr. Nissley said.
Still, it is not unusual for the Amish to reach out to those who hurt them. When an Amish dies in a car accident, for example, the motorist is often invited to the funeral. Mr. Zook said he had shaken hands with Mr. Roberts’s father-in-law, whom he encountered at the home of the Fisher family, who had three daughters in the school. One escaped, another was wounded and the third was killed. Mr. Zook said such encounters helped the survivors victims heal.
“I think it’s helping him to meet people too, and see that there’s no grudge,” he said of the father-in-law. “How could you hold a grudge against the wife, the family?”
As satellite trucks and reporters descended on the area, many residents said they felt protective of the Amish, who shun publicity. And many Amish said they did not blame the English, as they call their non-Amish neighbors, for what happened.
But the shootings still meant a loss of trust between the Amish and the modern world, especially for the young. One 34-year-old Amish man, who said he would not give his name because he did not want to attract attention, said that the day after the shooting he had to ask a reporter parked near an Amish schoolhouse to move along because her presence was scaring the children.
“She was just sitting there doing bookwork, but the kids were all hiding behind the school peeping around the side,” he said.
After all, they had just learned that the recent carnage occurred after an “Englishman” had parked his pickup truck in front of a school.
“It’s going to be a scar on them for some time,” the man said.[/q]
80sU2isBest
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Irvine511 said:
Total forgiveness and reaching out to help those who hurt you: those are very radical and odd characteristics these days, but in this way in particular, the Amish are behaving exactly how Christ tells his followers to behave. It is a tall order, and I have great respect for them for doing so.
INDY500
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
martha said:
Then do some kind of formal study and find out how many of these nutjobs were Christian and how many weren't before you decide that "something's going on" based on one guy with one shirt.
I don't base my sociological theories on one guy's t-shirt.
I take it you're a teacher from your earlier post? Good for you. But I need to clarify something, neither the man who spoke on CBS, nor I said anything about Christianity or even religion. It's believe--believe in something bigger than you and a believe that no one other individual is any less important than you. Nor did I say "banning God from school" was the sole or even primary reason for increased violence. And my "something's going on" isn't because of one t-shirt and you know it. It's observation of the world since I left school.
Ask anyone over the age of 40 if they can relate to guns, metal detectors, armed guards, student suicides, Ritalin bottles or lockdowns in school. Ask your school's more experienced teachers if they feel more, or less safe, than 20 years ago.
Then you tell me if anything's changed.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
INDY500 said:
No, I didn't "know it." You made that statement right after you quoted the T-shirt.
And honestly, you tend to backtrack frequently when called on to make sense of many of your statements.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
INDY500 said:
I'll ask them about parents taking less and less responsibility for their kids, I'll ask them about teenagers having guns while the gun lobby ensures their access to them, I'll ask them about media overload on violence, I'll ask them about kids sitting unsupervised in front of their televisions for hours a day.
And thanks for assuming that I'm under 40.
80sU2isBest
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
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INDY500 said:
I'm 39 and I can tell you that I can't relate to guns, metal detectors, armed guards, Ritalin bottles or lockdowns in school.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
80sU2isBest said:
i'm 29 and i can't relate.
Irvine511
Blue Crack Supplier
martha said:
I'll ask them about parents taking less and less responsibility for their kids, I'll ask them about teenagers having guns while the gun lobby ensures their access to them, I'll ask them about media overload on violence, I'll ask them about kids sitting unsupervised in front of their televisions for hours a day.
And thanks for assuming that I'm under 40.
martha, you don't look a day older than 29
i'd also ask about the dramatically increased social inequality and disappearing middle class.
martha
Blue Crack Supplier
Irvine511 said:martha, you don't look a day older than 29
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