Reverends of the Race Card

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Macfistowannabe said:
Let me simplify it for you. I don't need to hear Jesse Jackson's profound, yet predictable accusations of racism every time we have a hurricane.

no need to simplify anything; i understand everything you're saying all too well.

must be nice to live such a charmed life that you don't have to deal with the realities of racism impacting your life, your ambitions, your family everyday.
 
So people should stop wanting to be accepted for who they are and as equals w/ equal rights and opportunities and just "fit in"?

The difference in your Interference analogy is that your life is not impacted in any way if there are more macphistos in this forum. You wouldn't face discrimination and/or outright hatred because of a lack of them or the existence of them.

I agree w/ dandy, we live charmed lives when we don't have to deal with those things. Maybe if you lived in someone else's shoes for even one day you'd have a better understanding.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
I agree. But how can we achieve this when we cry "racism" day after day without any credibility?



As all of us saw on television, there's also some deep, persistent poverty in this region, as well. That poverty has roots in a history of racial discrimination, which cut off generations from the opportunity of America. We have a duty to confront this poverty with bold action
 
Macfistowannabe said:
So tell me about it. All you've said is that it matters. Now tell me why without personalizing my posts.



okay, let me tell you a story.

my best friend is south asian indian. we have been friends since 8th grade, and we are deeply emotionally intimate with each other. we've gone to the movies, and when i pay for my ticket and she pays for her ticket and the teller looks at us funny, as if to say, "why won't you buy your girlfriend a ticket," my response is, "oh, we're brother and sister." that gets a funny reaction.

anyway, the only time things get prickly is when we talk about race. i never, ever think of her race. i barely notice it; it's cosmetic to me. i can see it a bit more with her parents, since they do have accents and their house does have hindu religious artifacts all around. but, to my mind, whatever. it really makes no difference, and it is just one piece in the larger narrative in which i understand (and love) her as a person.

while i can forget that she's south asian, she never does. she is always completely aware that she is just a bit different, and i'm sure growing up in a vastly white suburb like we did exacerbated this. she says she's aware that she's indian every day, all the time, and in a million-and-one subtle ways that no mainstream white person would ever think of. it's the little things -- i remember while she was gushing about how good "the english patient" was, she mentioned, "not only was there an indian character, but he got to have sex!!!! that *never* happens in movies!!!"

essentially, when you are a minority in any way, you are reminded of this in all aspects of culture. to some, this becomes a source of strength; a way to individualize yourself and distinguish yourself from what you might perceive as a misguided mainstream. but not everyone's that strong, particularly when you're young and a teenager. indirectly, this contributed, i think, to a small battle with an eating disorder when she was a freshman in college; and, to this day, she is extremely aware of her looks -- thus, she looks *terrific* and her taste is impeccable.

for myself, being a sexual minority, i am always, always aware that i'm different whenever i'm amongst heterosexuals and there are discussions of dating, sex, romance, etc. and these somewhat anxious feelings arise even when i'm with people who know and love me and are supportive and would never, ever even think of treating me differently (much the way i never really think about my best friend's race). it doesn't matter that they are 100% comfortable with my having a boyfriend (and in fact, they often love going out with us to restaurants, since it's hip for straight couples to have gay couple friends); i am never 100% comfortable with my sexuality in the presence of all heterosexuals. weddings make me both anxious and depressed, no matter how happy i might be for my friends. this is something that i cannot do, a gift i cannot give my parents, a ritual in which i cannot participate, and ultimately no one is going to *really* understand except for another gay person. it's simply a fact that differences matter, because on a macro level, society treats you differently because of such differences.

the idea of a colorblind society strikes me as naive, and also sublty racist. being colorblind is a luxury only *you* can afford because you, as a white person, can walk through the day and never once think of your race. those of us who have to live with a major social difference -- race, ethnicity, religious, sexual -- are keenly aware of this. it's not that you, the individual, have done something wrong, or something intentional; it's that the structure of society is aligned, at all levels, to reflect and reinforce the values of the majority.

also, think about it -- there would be no white people if there were no black people; there would be no heterosexuals without homoseuxals. the very definitions and self-understanding of the mainstream norm is predicated upon the maintenance of social differences and distinctions with a minority.
 
MrsSpringsteen said:
So people should stop wanting to be accepted for who they are and as equals w/ equal rights and opportunities and just "fit in"?
Wow, we're on thread number three, and some still don't get it. Yes, you should be yourself, you should keep your individuality, but none of that should stop you from being a part of society. I'm so sick of trying to explain myself. If I hadn't clarified anything by now, I probably never will.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
Wow, we're on thread number three, and some still don't get it. Yes, you should be yourself, you should keep your individuality, but none of that should stop you from being a part of society. I'm so sick of trying to explain myself. If I hadn't clarified anything by now, I probably never will.

Maybe you'll understand by 2050 when the U.S. Hispanic (and overwhelmingly Roman Catholic) population will outnumber whites (and Protestants), and you'll be expected to start assimilating into their culture.

Oh what will the "school prayer" advocates say when they start cracking out the rosary to start the day?

Melon
 
Thanks Irvine for explaining yourself. I have no doubts that a lot of people feel different inside when they shouldn't have to.
 
deep said:
is this remark playing the race card?
It's not an uplifting remark for minorities - or any other member of society - to be reminded of. I find it to be fairly degrading when we obsess over comments like those instead of admiring the minorities who live successful lives.
 
melon said:


Maybe you'll understand by 2050 when the U.S. Hispanic (and overwhelmingly Roman Catholic) population will outnumber whites (and Protestants), and you'll be expected to start assimilating into their culture.

Oh what will the "school prayer" advocates say when they start cracking out the rosary to start the day?

Melon
This brings me off the topic, but if need I reply, maybe the school prayer advocates would be willing to leave it up to the individual which way they wish to worship, rather than establish statism on each and every student.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
It's not an uplifting remark for minorities - or any other member of society - to be reminded of. I find it to be fairly degrading when we obsess over comments like those instead of admiring the minorities who live successful lives.



doesn't the celebration of michael jordan, oprah, etc., just distract from the real issues? isn't it in the best interests of a ruling class to have a few individuals who have "made it" so they can point to them and say, "see? it can be done," when, really, society is structured so that it cannot be done, at least in a meaningful way.

this is not to say, however, that there is no such thing as a black middle class. on a statistical level, the 1990s were a good time for the black middle classes, they grew, and more people were able to pull themselves up out of poverty. but, historically, this has not been the norm.

also, achieving "equality" is easist when you're talking about economics. it's the subtler, psychological toll of racism that's harder to spot, and harder to combat. if we need to hear the N-word in order for us to understand something as racist, then we're really not listening hard enough.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
This brings me off the topic, but if need I reply, maybe the school prayer advocates would be willing to leave it up to the individual which way they wish to worship, rather than establish statism on each and every student.

But these same people demand on posting the Ten Commandments everywhere--the Protestant version, of course. The Catholic version is slightly different, but different nonetheless. What would they say if the Catholic Ten Commandments were posted instead?

Or what if crucifixes (instead of blank crosses) were hung in the classroom?

My point is that it's easy to cry "assimilation" when its YOUR values and YOUR culture you want everyone to assimilate into. When you're the outsider, however, it becomes very apparent how different you are. And Irvine511's story is a very similar for all those who somehow don't fit into the narrow homogeneity that is "American."

And that's why we continue to have racial tensions.

Melon
 
Irvine511 said:
doesn't the celebration of michael jordan, oprah, etc., just distract from the real issues? isn't it in the best interests of a ruling class to have a few individuals who have "made it" so they can point to them and say, "see? it can be done," when, really, society is structured so that it cannot be done, at least in a meaningful way.
I really think it would show a positive and motivating message if we spent less time on the "you can't do it" and more on the "you can do it." But I agree to a point where we shouldn't let it escape our history, and we shouldn't ignore those who aren't living a satisfying life. I don't see how this would have a negative impact on society.

Irvine511 said:
this is not to say, however, that there is no such thing as a black middle class. on a statistical level, the 1990s were a good time for the black middle classes, they grew, and more people were able to pull themselves up out of poverty. but, historically, this has not been the norm.
Historically, no. But it's been getting better. A fair share of my middle class neighbors were black and lived quite well, to what I would consider middle class.

Irvine511 said:
also, achieving "equality" is easist when you're talking about economics. it's the subtler, psychological toll of racism that's harder to spot, and harder to combat. if we need to hear the N-word in order for us to understand something as racist, then we're really not listening hard enough.
I can't feel ignorant by wondering why Kanye West made the comment he made, why Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton went on to make the comments they made, etc. I thought about them, but I still couldn't give them any credibility.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
It's not an uplifting remark for minorities - or any other member of society - to be reminded of. I find it to be fairly degrading when we obsess over comments like those instead of admiring the minorities who live successful lives.

Do you wish to include President Bush is your lead post as a player of the race card.

Those are direct quotes from his televised National speech.


You may need to ask yourself is your reaction to what is being said.

Or the color of the skin of the speaker
 
I am in no position to be throwing stones.

I find myself telling stories sometimes and I have to test myself for bias.

I was talking about a very good friend, who is a bit difficult, he is very demanding, unforgiving of mistakes when he is paying for a service or a product. He is successful and does not quibble about price.

He is equally hard on himself, his work product. He sets the highest standard for himself and everyone, else.


Well, when I was relating a story I stopped myself from describing him as a “gay” person.

I asked myself what his sexuality had to do with him being extremely demanding.

I am very forgiving, as long as it is salvageable, and the mistake will not be repeated.
I find this attitude gets me further in the long run. The old “love vs fear” theory.

Well, I told the story without sexual orientation mentioned. (I did a quick inventory of difficult clients and friends and found correlating numbers in the straight population)
To preface the story as my “gay friend” would only contribute to stereotyping and reveal my? bias.

At age 20-30 I was cock-sure in my opinions as being 100 per cent sound.

At age 50, I am able to see other sides more objectively without feeling threatened that “my absolute truths” are not the only answer.

WE ALL HAVE BIAS’.

The only question is
will we work on them?
Can we move away from them? Little by little?


I have started threads in here that put my BIAS up front.
I am capable of learning, growing and moving on.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
There are all kinds of ideas that will never be completely eliminated. I don't see the need for racial agitators any more than I see the need for anyone still fighting to let women into the workforce.

I disagree. As long as racism exists, someone needs to raise hell about it. We need demonstrations and such to show that we don't approve of racism, to keep public awareness up. When an evil like racism is going on you just don't sit around and twiddle your thumbs, you agitate. I agree that we'll never get rid of racism, but that's no reason not to protest.
 
nbcrusader said:


In light of your statement (with which I do not necessarily disagree), will we ever get to a point when race does not matter?



i have no idea.

great question -- possibly unanswerable, so long as there is history.
 
actually, let me amend that.

i think there might be an end of easy racial distinctions.

how?

through sexual attraction. today, more than ever, there are kids of mixed race heritage, and it's no secret that people of one race often find people of other races extremely alluring -- just think Thomas Jefferson and his slaves, or, heck, even Strom Thurmond. i would say the majority of my friends have dated outside their race.

i thought "monster's ball" was a brilliant movie, and a movie where the graphic sex scene was 100% justified and necessary to plot and theme -- it showed that opposite-race sexual attraction is a powerful, powerful thing, and it allowed a white racist to see a black female as a woman and human being. sexual desire trumps racial prejudice. it's through sexual attraction and romance and love and procreation that racial distinctions will become more and more blurred.

to further complicate this, if one day i do adopt (and i hope life allows me to do so), i don't see myself adopting a white child.

for whatever that's worth.
 
Macfistowannabe said:
I don't see the need for racial agitators any more than I see the need for anyone still fighting to let women into the workforce.


The fact that we have a federal sex discrimination law does not mean the fight is over,

There are many acts of discrimination occurring daily.
There needs to vigilance to provide equal opportunity for all.


You and I (and I could name others that post in here) are white males living in America.

Do we see ourselves as only someone that has something to lose in these disputes?

Is it OUR place to tell the women to “stop bithin' you can be a garbage collector or a fire fighter.”
 
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A true melting pot of races. I wonder how many generations it would take to achieve.

But if "race matters" is always tied to a history of racism - it is self perpetuating. It will never end.
 
nbcrusader said:
A true melting pot of races. I wonder how many generations it would take to achieve.

But if "race matters" is always tied to a history of racism - it is self perpetuating. It will never end.



one self-defines partially (if not mostly) through determining what one is not.

i don't see it ending either.
 
Irvine511 said:




i thought "monster's ball" was a brilliant movie, and a movie where the graphic sex scene was 100% justified and necessary to plot and theme -- it showed that opposite-race sexual attraction is a powerful,

billy bob's charater did evolve a bit



but bigots fucking slaves and maids
will do nothing to end racism and only adds to it


it is my hope that with easy transportation, world economies, that a few hundred years cultures will mix to an extent that race matters less

i am currently seeing someone outside of my race
 
Irvine511 said:





i don't see it ending either.

This is sad.
but many only define themselves as "us and them"

I have been working hard to let go of that concept

There really is only "us"

Many would achieve that "us"
through converting, conquering, or making them change over to "us"

I guess if we were ever "lucky enough" to have an earth destroying meteor approach our planet
we could be "us" for that duration.
 
Funny thing, though, regarding race-Irvine's post about mixed relationships made me think of it...in my sociology book it says that there's never been such thing as a pure race because of the kinds of things Irvine alluded to-slaves and white owners getting together and things like that. So it's a bit strange to hear a racist talking about wanting a "pure" race...if my book is true, their ancestry isn't pure, either.

I've never dated outside of my race, but that's due to the fact that I've tended to lived in towns that are so full of white people it's not even funny-finding someone who wasn't white wandering about was a surprise to many. The main minorities there were Mexicans, and even then, it was a very small portion, and it was mainly some families.

But I definitely recall some remarks made in one of the towns I lived in back in Iowa whenever a white person would date a Mexican. They weren't very friendly remarks.

In regards to the race card, I agree with what U2democrat about hurting a cause and that sort of thing, but at the same time, I don't doubt that there's still underlying racial issues in this world. What worries me is the fact that it seems with a lot of other tragic events in which prejudice and discrimination ran rampant, people didn't seem to wake up, so...I'm a bit worried as to how bad things have to get before people do wake up.

Angela
 
Moonlit_Angel said:
Funny thing, though, regarding race-Irvine's post about mixed relationships made me think of it...in my sociology book it says that there's never been such thing as a pure race because of the kinds of things Irvine alluded to-slaves and white owners getting together and things like that.

So it's a bit strange to hear a racist talking about wanting a "pure" race...if my book is true, their ancestry isn't pure, either.



Angela

They don't need a pure race to be bigots

They just need to be able to differentiate.

That they will have sexual relations with
minorities means nothing more than when a man? uses a street walking prostitute for sexual gratification

does that mean he wants to share his life with her, put her on his health plan and in his will?
 
I have just read through this whole thread and I just want to say
I love you Mrs. Springstein and Irvine!!! I agree with you both 100% . I really is sad that some ppl want to pretend that race is not an issue when it is so obvious that it is. Racism does exsist!! I just hope that one day it won't.
 
deep said:
They don't need a pure race to be bigots

They just need to be able to differentiate.

That they will have sexual relations with
minorities means nothing more than when a man? uses a street walking prostitute for sexual gratification

does that mean he wants to share his life with her, put her on his health plan and in his will?

Oh, that's very true, I agree. I was thinking about the KKK people who talk about how they want to keep their race pure when I wrote that-never gonna happen, buddy, you've got mixed relations in your ancestry.

But yes, you are right about that stuff, too.

Angela
 
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