President gives unwelcome massage to Chancellor of Germany

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MrsSpringsteen said:


You weren't "laughing at the situation" with Bush, you were making sexist comments that at least he could have picked a better looking woman and talking about happy endings. So I assume you think sexual harassment is a laughing matter, judging from your comments and other posts I have read of yours. Newsflash-it isn't, and it IS a national crisis. Sexism from men isn't funny and isn't fun to deal with. And reading the thread, I'm not the only one who feels that way and "surprise surprise", even some men here expressed their disgust at the sexist comments in this thread.

I don't think sexual harassment is funny, I think situations like this are funny - but that's the problem anyone can view action or works as sexual harassment - much like some people may label me me as a sexist pig based on what I've said. I don't sexually harass women, but if you saw my interactions with some of my coworkers, including females, you would probably cringe at the type of stuff we talk about at work - but it's all good with us. I choose to laugh at other people cringe at, it's just me. So I guess I'm just an asshole.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


I make mistake all the time, but I'm not going to "mistakingly" throw out a slur because I don't think that way. I'm not going to mistakingly make a woman uncomfortable or demeaned because I don't think that way...

I disagree... in my part of hte US people still call those of east Asian descent "oriental", though I would absolutely say they're not racist... but that might be for another thread.

I think ignorance defense doesn't work for Bush, though. It's part of his job to know how his actions are going to be interpreted, and in my experience most women interpret such a gesture as paternalistic - totally inappropriate in this situation.
 
Kristie said:


I disagree... in my part of hte US people still call those of east Asian descent "oriental", though I would absolutely say they're not racist... but that might be for another thread.


So wouldn't you define this as ignorance? So are you only a racist if you know better?

Yeah, I'll admit the lines are gray sometimes. But as human beings, don't we have a responsibilty to educate ourselves about other human beings?

It may be harsh but ignorance isn't an excuse it's a disease.

And we are all ignorant of some subject matter, I'm not trying to claim any superiority. But if I move to or visit some area of the world where I don't know anything about the culture or the people, I will try my hardest to educate myself.
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


So wouldn't you define this as ignorance? So are you only a racist if you know better?

Yeah, I'll admit the lines are gray sometimes. But as human beings, don't we have a responsibilty to educate ourselves about other human beings?

It may be harsh but ignorance isn't an excuse it's a disease.

And we are all ignorant of some subject matter, I'm not trying to claim any superiority. But if I move to or visit some area of the world where I don't know anything about the culture or the people, I will try my hardest to educate myself.

it's hard to educate yourself if you don't realize you need education in the first place... but as I said, that's for another thread.
 
Kristie said:


it's hard to educate yourself if you don't realize you need education in the first place... but as I said, that's for another thread.

The concept of educating yourself should be obvious to us all. For we are all different. As a man, I try and figure out women(and this is a lifetime quest:wink: )because they are part of my everyday life. They're in my schools, work, social life, etc. So are people of other races, religions, sexualities, etc...

It's all about empathy, something this world lacks...
 
BonoVoxSupastar said:


The concept of educating yourself should be obvious to us all. For we are all different. As a man, I try and figure out women(and this is a lifetime quest:wink: )because they are part of my everyday life. They're in my schools, work, social life, etc. So are people of other races, religions, sexualities, etc...

It's all about empathy, something this world lacks...

since you insist...

I've never tried to find out if there is a more PC term for a brunette. Everyone calls them brunettes, and a brunette has never objected to the use of the term. I have never heard anyone use it in a derogatory fashion. If "brunette" has a condescending root, I don't know about it. Sometimes they are called "people with brown hair", but the terms seem interchangable, and I am not aware of anyone having a preference.

It was exactly the same with me and "oriental" until someone (from california) ripped (a very confused) me a new one about it when I was in college. The entire point of my major is to educate people about other human beings, yet this never came up in class or in my books. I apologized and haven't used it since. Once it was brought to my attention, I did research on it and learned why it was objectionable.

Was I a racist up until that point? I (and all my friends from the same state, I asked them all) were unaware that there were any other non-derogatory synonyms.
I had no more reason to educate myself on it than I do to find out a better word for brunette. It was like questioning why we call the sky "blue". You ask why it is blue, but that discussion usually doesn't involve why we call that particular color "blue". In this case it might be unfortunate, but I don't think it makes thousands of people racist.

If I had learned why people object to its use, and I continued to use it, then I think that would be wrong. Everyone (with the exception of one or two older people) I have discussed this with has discontinued their use of that particular word.

Now that you have been educated on my community, you can think whatever you want about us.

I'm going to go find out where the word "brunette" came from.


/thread hijack
 
Kristie said:


since you insist...

I've never tried to find out if there is a more PC term for a brunette. Everyone calls them brunettes, and a brunette has never objected to the use of the term. I have never heard anyone use it in a derogatory fashion. If "brunette" has a condescending root, I don't know about it. Sometimes they are called "people with brown hair", but the terms seem interchangable, and I am not aware of anyone having a preference.

It was exactly the same with me and "oriental" until someone (from california) ripped (a very confused) me a new one about it when I was in college. The entire point of my major is to educate people about other human beings, yet this never came up in class or in my books. I apologized and haven't used it since. Once it was brought to my attention, I did research on it and learned why it was objectionable.

Was I a racist up until that point? I (and all my friends from the same state, I asked them all) were unaware that there were any other non-derogatory synonyms.
I had no more reason to educate myself on it than I do to find out a better word for brunette. It was like questioning why we call the sky "blue". You ask why it is blue, but that discussion usually doesn't involve why we call that particular color "blue". In this case it might be unfortunate, but I don't think it makes thousands of people racist.

If I had learned why people object to its use, and I continued to use it, then I think that would be wrong. Everyone (with the exception of one or two older people) I have discussed this with has discontinued their use of that particular word.

Now that you have been educated on my community, you can think whatever you want about us.

I'm going to go find out where the word "brunette" came from.


/thread hijack

You bring up some very interesting points. But the difference is 'oriental' is wrong factual. Whereas burnette isn't. Burnette is objective. Just like if some called me a redhead. I am a redhead. Now if they called me a fire crotch that would be something different. :wink:
 
part of the idea is that people think "oriental" is objective - they don't realize it has a meaning beyond describing someone with a certain set of features that tend to indicate an ancestry from eastern Asia (aka, the Orient).

They don't know why it's called "the orient" or what "orient" means or who named it "the orient." It's just a name for a region, like the Midwest.

I understand your point though and I do agree that in a conservative state (I'm from Indiana, by the way) people are often relucant to change to a fault.

and just to be a pain in the ass, wikipedia says brunette means "little brown haired girl" in French. I might find the "little" part objectionable, had I brown hair. So if you say "brunette" is objective, does that make you a.. um... hairist? :shifty:
 
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The Occident and the Orient are valid terms, "Oriental" is not the same as "Chink", I fail to see how "Oriental" is at all derrogatory.
 
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Kristie said:


and just to be a pain in the ass, wikipedia says brunette means "little brown haired girl" in French. I might find the "little" part objectionable, had I brown hair. So if you say "brunette" is objective, does that make you a.. um... hairist? :shifty:

:lol: Point taken, and this proves my point of all the gray out there. But to my knowledge so far I haven't found anyone who takes this word offensive, but you see I'm educating myself...

On a side note, I've never taken any offense but some of my redheaded friends have always taken offense to the term, 'beat you like a redheaded step child'...
 
nbc asked several times what the point of the thread was. Since I'm the thread starter, the point of the thread was purely to elicit responses, which apparently was successful.:wink: ... and since I hadn't seen it posted here, to post what I saw as another example of the President's cluelessness.

My favorite responses to the thread have been the ones doing pretzel twisting gymnastics saying maybe she liked it. :lol:
Was there anything in that series of photos that said she was happy to be massaged by the leader of the free world? Was there anything in that body language--whether it took one second or five seconds--that indicated pleasure? This wasn't one photo which could be misinterpreted, they were a series of photos with a corresponding video. My God, even the President finally figured it out.

This woman was nonverbally shouting "No. Don't touch me!" to the rafters. I'm beginning to understand some earlier responses in different threads as to why some men can't read a woman's nonconsent. They read only what they want to read, sometimes to the point of delusion. That's troubling, both socially and intellectually.

The President's behavior wasn't earthshattering. But how some posters would actually try to make a case that she liked it, even asked for it is beyond me.

I promise, however, if we find these photos/video were somehow faked (although I can't imagine they were) or the Chancellor makes a statement that she enjoyed the massage, I will post a mea culpa here and send a letter of apology to the President.
 
randhail said:


I don't think sexual harassment is funny, I think situations like this are funny - but that's the problem anyone can view action or works as sexual harassment - much like some people may label me me as a sexist pig based on what I've said. I don't sexually harass women, but if you saw my interactions with some of my coworkers, including females, you would probably cringe at the type of stuff we talk about at work - but it's all good with us. I choose to laugh at other people cringe at, it's just me. So I guess I'm just an asshole.

There are definitions of sexual harassment. Just because some of your co workers think you interactions are "all good" doesn't mean everyone does, or I would. Your "jokes" in this thread weren't funny at all to me and were offensive to me-"funny" you still haven't addressed that directly. They were offensive and completely unnecessary. I won't go so far as to say they make you an asshole, but in my eyes they are indicative of what a boy would say, not a man. I don't understand why you would post them at all, and I don't believe someone would intentionally portray themselves in a negative light online if that really isn't an aspect of their personality. That makes no sense to me at all.Trying to portray yourself in a better light than what you are really like-yes that I can understand.

So what was the reason for those comments? Was it attention seeking or what, what was it? Like I said, show some respect for the female posters here. I'm not going to let stuff like that slide, just like I wouldn't put up with it from boys in my everyday life. Racial slurs and "jokes" or "jokes" about homosexuals wouldn't be allowed here, so sexist "jokes" shouldn't be allowed either. It's not something I can dismiss as "being blown out of proportion". I'm tired of reading stuff like that here and keeping my mouth shut.

If the Chancellor made a statement that she enjoyed the massage and wasn't offended (something tells me she would minimize it in order to diffuse the stiuation just like so many women do) that still doesn't change the issues in this thread. My it has been illuminating :|
 
I suspect that the Chancellor might diplomatically say she wasn't offended if push came to shove. However, she would have to say she enjoyed the massage to warrant my apology.
 
This is what we get for electing a the guy who "we'd like to have a beer with" instead of the guy who knows diplomacy and culture. God willing, it will never happen again.
 
http://idealisticpragmatist.blogspot.com/2006/07/bushs-touching-cultural-faux-pas.html

"That's the Bild-Zeitung, though, and an editorial called "Alone among men" that appeared in the Berlin-area regional newspaper Märkische Allgemeine came much closer to nailing what really happened:

" Although it was her first appearance there and although she was the only woman in the mega-macho-club of the G8, Merkel didn't let on at all that Jacques Chirac, Tony Blair and the other alpha males might have even tried to take away what was rightfully hers. Only George W. Bush didn't quite get it. While his fellow leaders were sitting at the table at the opening meeting, he came and caressed Angie's shoulders. She reacted as if it had been a natural disaster.

Nothing like that would ever have happened to Vladimir Putin. As long as you don't approach him with questions of democracy and criticism of his neoimperialistic ambitions, he abides by a strict sense of etiquette. "


Far from showing his great "love" for the chancellor, what this event really illustrates is Bush's appalling insensitivity to the fact that not everybody else's culture is just like his own. In Germany, this will be perceived not as a joke, but as a man showing a woman her place. Don't look so shocked, Mr. President--there are actually places in the world where you don't get to massage the shoulders of a woman (and a fellow world leader) whom you barely know. After six long years of hobnobbing with the international elite, I'd think you might have figured that out."

It's not only in Germany that it is perceived in that way either
 
MrsSpringsteen said:




So what was the reason for those comments?

The reason for the comments is that they are comments that I would make to my friends or they would make to me. It's how I felt about the whole situation. If George had gone up to her and punched her, then I think the issue would be worth talking about. If they offended people, then so be it - I won't apologize for that. I'm tired of people biting their tongue because it could "offend" people. Say what's on your mind.
 
najeena said:
This is what we get for electing a the guy who "we'd like to have a beer with" instead of the guy who knows diplomacy and culture. God willing, it will never happen again.

Perusing through this thread makes me think that even God isn't powerful enough to override His creation's stupidity.

Melon
 
MrsSpringsteen said:
[B
Don't look so shocked, Mr. President--there are actually places in the world where you don't get to massage the shoulders of a woman (and a fellow world leader) whom you barely know. [/B]

I read in The Times a week or so ago that in the few months since she's been Chancellor that Merkel and Bush have already developed a close personal friendship with several private get togethers.
Don't get me wrong, I think Bush acted inappropriately and it doesn't excuse his behaviour but it may go some way towards explaining it. :shrug:
 
najeena said:
This is what we get for electing a the guy who "we'd like to have a beer with" instead of the guy who knows diplomacy and culture. God willing, it will never happen again.

Yeah, too bad we didn't elect the man who had secret meetings with Communist leadership`during the Vietnam War and lied about his fellow soldiers' behaviors while the war was still raging and we still had POWs over there.

But thank goodness we did elect as commander-in-chief of our armed forces a draft dodger who protested America's involvment in the war while standing on Communist soil.
 
80sU2isBest said:


Yeah, too bad we didn't elect the man who had secret meetings with Communist leadership`during the Vietnam War and lied about his fellow soldiers' behaviors while the war was still raging and we still had POWs over there.

But thank goodness we did elect as commander-in-chief of our armed forces a draft dodger who protested America's involvment in the war while standing on Communist soil.

:rolleyes:

let's keep this train wreck of a thread on track please. Start another thread if you want to bad mouth Bill Clinton.
 
80sU2isBest said:
Yeah, too bad we didn't elect the man who had secret meetings with Communist leadership`during the Vietnam War and lied about his fellow soldiers' behaviors while the war was still raging and we still had POWs over there.

But thank goodness we did elect as commander-in-chief of our armed forces a draft dodger who protested America's involvment in the war while standing on Communist soil.

Better yet, we elected a man who only nominally served in the National Guard (a common vehicle for the Vietnam-era privileged to avoid the war), while goofing off on a political campaign of a friend of Daddy's to avoid actually working.

And Clinton wasn't a "draft dodger." College education was (and might still be, actually) a legitimate reason to avoid service. Dick Cheney actually has a much more colorful history when it comes to this subject:

There continues to be some controversy involving Dick Cheney and the draft, due in part to Cheney's five draft deferments. In January 1959, when Mr. Cheney reached age 18 and was classified as 1-A — available for service — he was doing poorly at Yale. At that time, however, the military was taking only older men, and like most others who were in college at the time, Cheney had little concern about being drafted. In June 1962, Cheney left Yale to return home to Casper, where he worked as a lineman for a power company. In 1962, only 82,060 men were inducted into the service, the fewest since 1949. While Cheney was eligible for the draft, as he said during his confirmation hearings in 1989, he was not called up because the Selective Service System was taking only older men.

By January 1963, with the US actively advising South Vietnamese forces, Cheney enrolled in Casper Community College and turned 22 that month. At that time, he sought his first student deferment which was granted on March 20, according to records from the Selective Service System. After transferring to the University of Wyoming at Laramie, Cheney sought his second student deferment on July 23, 1963. On August 7, 1964, Congress approved the Gulf of Tonkin resolution, which allowed President Lyndon B. Johnson to use military force in Vietnam. From that point on, American involvement in Vietnam began to escalate rapidly.

After graduating from the University of Wyoming at Laramie in 1963 with a Bachelor's degree in political science, Cheney stayed at the U of W to complete an MA in political science, graduating in 1965.

On August 29, 1964, 22 days after the resolution, Cheney married his high school sweetheart, Lynne. He sought and was granted his third student deferment on October 14, 1964. In May 1965, Cheney graduated from college and his draft status changed to 1-A. Since he was married, however, he had somewhat better protection from being drafted. In July, 1965, Johnson announced that he was doubling the number of men drafted. The number of inductions soared, to 382,010 in 1966 from 230,991 in 1965 and 112,386 in 1964. Cheney obtained his fourth deferment because he started graduate school at the University of Wyoming on November 1, 1965.

On October 6, 1965, the Selective Service lifted its ban against drafting married men who had no children. Nine months and two days later, Cheney's first daughter, Elizabeth, was born. On January 19, 1966, when his wife was about 10 weeks pregnant, Mr. Cheney applied for 3-A status, the "hardship" exemption, which excluded men with children or dependent parents. It was granted. In January 1967, Cheney turned 26 and was no longer eligible for the draft.

But, yes, I know we're still drudging up stereotypes from the Cold War, where all Democrats are treasonous communists.

Melon
 
melon said:

But, yes, I know we're still drudging up stereotypes from the Cold War, where all Democrats are treasonous communists.
Melon

Not all Democrats are treasonous communists; just the ones who do things like supporting the enemy while on enemy soil and lie about our soldiers, thus endangering the lives of our POWs.
 
WildHoneyAlways said:


:rolleyes:

let's keep this train wreck of a thread on track please. Start another thread if you want to bad mouth Bill Clinton.

Hey, give me credit, I wasn't just bad mouthing Bill Clinton, I was also bad mouthing someone much worse than Bill Clinton, John Kerry.
 
randhail said:


The reason for the comments is that they are comments that I would make to my friends or they would make to me. It's how I felt about the whole situation. If George had gone up to her and punched her, then I think the issue would be worth talking about. If they offended people, then so be it - I won't apologize for that. I'm tired of people biting their tongue because it could "offend" people. Say what's on your mind.

I'm not surprised at all that you would make them to your friends, but you are not merely talking to your friends here.

I'm not surprised at all that you won't apologize

Sorry but you have to bite your tongue here-there are rules and guidelines for how and what you can post, or else it would be an offensive free for all. For example, I could theoretically say what's on my mind about posters like you and some of what they post, but I'd probably be banned for it. Like I said, racial and anti-homosexual jokes would not be acceptable here, so I don't see why sexist jokes are and are allowed to be defined as "saying what's on your mind". But I will take that up privately with a mod.
 
MrsSpringsteen said:


I'm not surprised at all that you would make them to your friends, but you are not merely talking to your friends here.

I'm not surprised at all that you won't apologize

Sorry but you have to bite your tongue here-there are rules and guidelines for how and what you can post, or else it would be an offensive free for all. For example, I could theoretically say what's on my mind about posters like you and some of what they post, but I'd probably be banned for it. Like I said, racial and anti-homosexual jokes would not be acceptable here, so I don't see why sexist jokes are and are allowed to be defined as "saying what's on your mind". But I will take that up privately with a mod.

How is calling Merkel ugly a sexist joke? The happy ending thing was probably a little much, but I really fail to see how calling anyone ugly is a sexist joke. There are ugly people in the world, it's a fact of life.

If you want say how you feel about me, go for it. I'm a big boy, I can handle it and won't lose any sleep over it.
 
Because it's SEXIST to comment on a woman's looks in a situation such as this, and to say at least he could have picked a good looking/better looking woman. Her looks have NOTHING to do with it, and she is the f'ing CHANCELLOR of Germany. She didn't get to that great job based upon her looks. I'm sure you might judge all women by their looks thus it makes it ok in your book. If you don't get it at this point in your life, I'm not going to attempt to give you a remedial course in sexism. No thanks, I have too much class and restraint to tell you what I think of you based on what you have posted here and elsewhere.

I will deal with it privately, so no need to address it again
 
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