People forget, but (re WWII)...

[financeguy]

....in the 1930's, especially in Britain it was, by and large,
the liberals, the leftwingers, the progressives, the 'intellectual classes' that saw the threat of Nazism for what it was.

And (again, by and large, Churchill being among the honourable exceptions) it was the conservatives, the aristocrats, the right wing, that wanted to appease Nazism and avoid war....at almost any cost. It was the right wing, in Britain at least, that sent the old comfortable appeasing phrases reverberating around board room tables, around cabinet tables, around Cambridge dinner parties. Phrases like 'peace in our time'. Phrases like 'that dratted trouble maker Churchill'. Phrases like 'Chamberlain is a good man'.

I've read a lot of from that period. And the more I read the more I become convinced of this.

And I think that it's interesting to note that it wasn't always the left and 'extreme liberals' that were associated with appeasement.

Just sayin'.

 

[Irvine511]

why do you hate my freedom?

 

[A_Wanderer]

I think that Pat Buchanan is living proof that those attitudes are alive and well, America First and all.

http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/

http://drinksoakedtrotsforwar.blogspot.com/

 

[melon]

"Reflecting upon the whole of the story, I am glad not to be responsible for the way in which Hess has been and is being treated. Whatever may be the moral guilt of a German who stood near to Hitler, Hess had, in my view, atoned for this by his completely devoted and frantic deed of lunatic benevolence. He came to us of his own free will, and, though without authority, had something of the quality of an envoy. He was a medical and not a criminal case, and should be so regarded." - Winston Churchill, 1950, on the imprisonment of Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess--who remained imprisoned in the UK until his death in 1987.

It looks like Churchill had a soft spot for them even after the war.

Melon

 

[financeguy]

why do you hate my freedom?

Don't hate your freedom at all dude

Just challenging what seems to be a kind of received wisdom that liberalism today is associated with appeasement which I think is just a bit bizarre.

I'm happy to post references for anyone that wishes to engage in a debate on this.

 

[financeguy]

It looks like Churchill had a soft spot for them even after the war.

Churchill did what he had to do. I don't agree that he had a soft spot for them.

 

[AvsGirl41]

It was really the same in this country. FDR (a Democrat) wanted to go to war. Many Republicans (including, correct me if I'm wrong, Prescott Bush) did not. They saw it as Europe's concern. And a shocking number of them had business interests with the Nazis.

I think the appeasement label got stuck on during the Cold War--perhaps even as early as Yalta, as many liberals did not see the reason in taking such an aggressive stance against the Soviet Union. If you didn't go along with "Better dead than red" you were a soft liberal commie. (Though it was Johnson, a Democrat, who escalated Vietnam so go figure.)

 

[nathan1977]

And it was a Republican that signed the Emancipation Proclamation.

Interesting how the times do change...

 

[Ft. Worth Frog]

Actually, there were many on the far left here in America who did not want the US to enter the war at all. There was a huge peace movement on both right and left during the 1930s because of the feelings regarding WWI. Many people on the left did not want to enter the war because they feared another WWI and they also wanted to focus on America's domestic ills. Many of those on the right (especially the America Firsters) did not support war because they did not want to shed American blood for Europeans. It was not so much because they had Nazi sympathies. Those Americans who did want to enter the war were moderates for both parties.

On a side note, Communists around the world did not support a war against Hitler because of the Non-Aggression Pact signed between the USSR and Germany in 1939.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Yes, I think that it should be noted that until Hitler declared war on the USSR that many communist sympathisers were active in campaigning against involvement, Woodie Guthrie and the Almanac Singers for instance are a great example.

 

[Se7en]

And it was a Republican that signed the Emancipation Proclamation.

Interesting how the times do change...

you are aware that abraham lincoln was, more or less, still a racist right? that the e.p. was a political maneuver?

or were you just implying that contemporary republicans would prefer to have seen slavery persist?

 

[Se7en]

On a side note, Communists around the world did not support a war against Hitler because of the Non-Aggression Pact signed between the USSR and Germany in 1939.

just out of genuine curiosity i'd like to see some factual support for this statement.

 

[A_Wanderer]

just out of genuine curiosity i'd like to see some factual support for this statement.

Just check it out here, http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/3448/doe.html

 

[deep]

Yes, I think that it should be noted that until Hitler declared war on the USSR that many communist sympathisers were active in campaigning against involvement, Woodie Guthrie and the Almanac Singers for instance are a great example.

Moved by his passion against fascism, during World War II, Woody served in both the Merchant Marine and the Army, shipping out to sea on several occasions with his buddies Cisco Houston and Jimmy Longhi. In one of many anti-Fascist songs written during the war, Woody tells us:

We were seamen three, / Cisco, Jimmy and me
Shipped out to beat the fascists / Across the land and sea.


"What Are We Waiting On?," by Woody Guthrie, looks at the home front as well. His musical adaptation of "John Henry" suggests that labor unions would help defeat America's fascist enemies. Also included is "Round and Round Hitler's Grave" by the Almanac Singers featuring Pete Seeger. This previously unreleased recording is short, to the point, and the most popular of the Almanac Singers' anti-Hitler songs.

 

[A_Wanderer]

After Hitler invaded the USSR

 

[Se7en]

woody guthrie...what a bastard.

 

[Calluna]

woody guthrie...what a bastard.

Yeah, really. "This land is your land, this land is my land." It's all a bunch of Communist propaganda.

 

[A_Wanderer]

In the original version of "This Land is Your Land" Guthrie protested class inequality with the verse,

In the squares of the city, In the shadow of a steeple;
By the relief office, I'd seen my people.
As they stood there hungry, I stood there asking,
Is this land made for you and me.

and protested the institution of private ownership of land with the verse,

As I went walking, I saw a sign there;
And on the sign there, It said, 'NO TRESPASSING.'
But on the other side, It didn't say nothing.
That side was made for you and me.

In another version, the sign reads "Private Property."

link

 

[hiphop]

(Though it was Johnson, a Democrat, who escalated Vietnam so go figure.)

if not, he probably would have been assassinated :speculate:

 

[A_Wanderer]

VRWC

 

[hiphop]

link

Interesting, no?

Now another question arises: were the Native Indians communists? Frankly, I don´t think so. The idea that man can not privately own land is not limited to communism.

 

[Calluna]

So what? I'm not sure if you are aware of this since you are not American but Woody Guthrie is considered by many here to be a great folk hero and the song mentioned is right up there with the national anthem in terms of patriotic songs in many people's eyes. I'm not willing to dismiss such a song or such a man as a dirty commie no matter what his personal politics may have been.

 

[hiphop]

So what? I'm not sure if you are aware of this since you are not American but Woody Guthrie is considered by many here to be a great folk hero and the song mentioned is right up there with the national anthem in terms of patriotic songs in many people's eyes. I'm not willing to dismiss such a song or such a man as a dirty commie no matter what his personal politics may have been.

Um, you weren´t talking to me, or were you?

 

[anitram]

Interesting, no?

Now another question arises: were the Native Indians communists? Frankly, I don´t think so. The idea that man can not privately own land is not limited to communism.

Yes, especially because their tribal laws actually define community ownership rather well, but differently than in the classical Communist sense.

 

[Calluna]

Um, you weren´t talking to me, or were you?

Haha! Sorry, no, I was talking to the wandering one. Good point there, Hiphop.

 

[hiphop]

Yes, especially because their tribal laws actually define community ownership rather well, but differently than in the classical Communist sense.

Yes, and regarding land.. it was created by Manitu, so it can not belong to men.

 

[financeguy]

Yes, I think that it should be noted that until Hitler declared war on the USSR that many communist sympathisers were active in campaigning against involvement, Woodie Guthrie and the Almanac Singers for instance are a great example.

Well some did, others did not agree with that approach for example within the British Communists Party.

 

[theblazer]

Hitler, Abe, Churchill? What the hell people? Why are people so desperate to cling to a side of politics in the past, or even the present?

Calling oneself right or left is so wasteful.

 

[BVS]

Hitler, Abe, Churchill? What the hell people? Why are people so desperate to cling to a side of politics in the past, or even the present?

Calling oneself right or left is so wasteful.

given your posts in the past, that's hilarious!!!

 

[Ft. Worth Frog]

"Reflecting upon the whole of the story, I am glad not to be responsible for the way in which Hess has been and is being treated. Whatever may be the moral guilt of a German who stood near to Hitler, Hess had, in my view, atoned for this by his completely devoted and frantic deed of lunatic benevolence. He came to us of his own free will, and, though without authority, had something of the quality of an envoy. He was a medical and not a criminal case, and should be so regarded." - Winston Churchill, 1950, on the imprisonment of Hitler's deputy, Rudolf Hess--who remained imprisoned in the UK until his death in 1987.

It looks like Churchill had a soft spot for them even after the war.

Melon

I am not sure that shows he had a soft spot for Nazis. This is a pretty weak statement to support such an idea.