on Danger Mouse's production

[AEON]

Hell, I could find several albums that were evocative of the Americana or roots-based heartland rock that showed up on TJT. Springsteen's "Born in the USA", Mellencamp's "Scarecrow", Tom Petty's "Heartland", Bruce Hornsby's "The Way it Is". To name a few.

There is nothing on those albums that sound anything like JT. Perhaps you're thinking of Rattle of Hum.

Would you like to compare the 'commerciality' of these^ artists with those you previously mentioned (Stone Roses, Happy Mondays, MBV, etc.)?

I don't think you would.

Not sure what you're saying here.

But I don't really understand the argument here anyway.

I agree.

The 'new' of Achtung Baby was relative to the mainstream.

I can get behind this. It wasn't new for me since I was certainly heavy into the Manchester scene and bands like MBV and Jesus and Mary Chain.

In America, at least, where have such a massive audience for English-speaking music,

What in the world are you saying here?

those albums (MBV's first one, Stone Roses first one) were all a fart in the wind.

What? Loveless is regarded as one of the best albums of the decade, and you often see the Stone Roses debut album on "Best" lists as well.

You could argue that nothing 'new' was there and you would probably be right.

Loveless is considered groundbreaking - and certainly one of the most influential albums of the decade.

But in terms of taking that underground sound to the overground, it was fairly new. But especially - and THIS is what is important - relative to who U2 were before The Fly hit the airwaves.

Yes, The Fly was certainly new compared to the 80's U2 sound. I don't think you'll find any argument there.

The idea that burying the Edge's guitars in the mix, much less muddying his tone or muddying Bono's vox was a "poppy" move is simply farce.

You lost me again...

 

[U2DMfan]

I don't have time to respond right now, but I promise later on this evening, I'll have something more substantial to say.

For starters, AEON, while I like you very much, if you're going to have a musical conversation with me, you better bring your A-game.

Loveless was not MBV's first album and it didn't predate Achtung anyway.

 

[iron yuppie]

While I agree that TJT was far from a guaranteed 'pop hit' but if I am going to compare it to Achtung, it is not even...not EVEN comparable. U2 basically said to their audience "yeah, you know that U2 you fell in love with for ten years? That humongous big-selling, Grammy winning monster album? And the MOVIE we made and that whole sound? Yeah. We're gonna burn most of that down and try to sound like not-U2. And our sonic inspiration? The one niche that isn't selling loads of records. Brilliant strategy for a 'pop' album, right?"

I love Achtung Baby and think it's brilliant in many ways, but I really think the "reinvention" element is wildly exaggerated on this forum. The fundamentals of U2 are still all over that record: ear-worm melodies, massive hooks, sing-along choruses, heavy but relatable lyrical themes, etc. Even the song-structures are relatively straight-forward. The veneer of a new angle is there, but it's hardly a Metal Machine Music or even a Kid A. I'm sure people initially heard The Fly and thought, "wow, there's distortion on those guitars," and the sound bite about chopping down the Joshua Tree sounds iconoclastic. But if we really strip it down, is it all that different from U2 songs that came before it?

 

[AEON]

For starters, AEON, while I like you very much, if you're going to have a musical conversation with me, you better bring your A-game.

Lol - true. The devil's in the details. I was originally referring to Glider (an EP that certainly set the stage for Loveless) as MBV's direct influence on Achtung Baby - so I'm not sure why you would throw Isn't Anything randomly under the bus, and I assumed (my fault) you were generally stating that MBV and Stone Roses were quickly forgotten while U2 continued on to further fame and fortune. After rereading your post, I still understand your point about MBV and Stone Roses debut albums. What is it?

 

[AEON]

I love Achtung Baby and think it's brilliant in many ways, but I really think the "reinvention" element is wildly exaggerated on this forum. The fundamentals of U2 are still all over that record: ear-worm melodies, massive hooks, sing-along choruses, heavy but relatable lyrical themes, etc. Even the song-structures are relatively straight-forward. The veneer of a new angle is there, but it's hardly a Metal Machine Music or even a Kid A. I'm sure people initially heard The Fly and thought, "wow, there's distortion on those guitars," and the sound bite about chopping down the Joshua Tree sounds iconoclastic. But if we really strip it down, is it all that different from U2 songs that came before it?

In this case, the "sound" was everything. Also - when you consider AB you also have to consider the visual reinvention as well. Seeing Bono wearing black leather and goggles with greased back hair was shocking at the time.

 

[The Slow Loris]

Define pop music as specifically as you can.

From a "music" sense of the phrase, "pop music" describes how an album is structured. By structure, I mean hooks or melody or rhythm, or a combination of all three (all boiling down to how "catchy" a song is). Sometimes there are obvious choruses and verses, but not always (think 'With or Without You', for example, which has plenty of hook and plenty of melody, but no obvious chorus; the chorus sort of whispers its way into the song, climaxing at the end). So it's not so much about how the songs are dressed up, or the types of sounds/production, or even the instrumentation. That's why Bono can, for example, call Nirvana's Nevermind album or the Pixies' Doolittle a couple of the greatest pop albums of all time, just as easily as he can call OutKast's Speakerboxxx one of the greatest pop albums of time, and just as easily can call 'Rubber Soul' one of the greatest pop albums of all time. It's also why we can call Achtung Baby one of the greatest pop albums of all time. It's not about the production. It's about the song structure itself. Ironically, one of the least poppy U2 albums is Pop. Its structure is almost like jazz in certain parts. There aren't too many obvious mainstream pop structures there, other than, say, 'Discotheque', 'Staring at the Sun' and 'Playboy Mansion', or maybe 'If God Will Send His Angels'. I think it's telling that the only singles that did reasonably well on the charts were three of those songs. Same with Zooropa, though Zooropa certainly has more of a pop sensibility than Achtung Baby, I would say. Not so much as full songs, but certain fragments or "idea" within the songs.

Anyways, I could go on.....but I will spare you the rest.

 

[AEON]

From a "music" sense of the phrase, "pop music" describes how an album is structured. By structure, I mean hooks or melody or rhythm, or a combination of all three (all boiling down to how "catchy" a song is). Sometimes there are obvious choruses and verses, but not always (think 'With or Without You', for example, which has plenty of hook and plenty of melody, but no obvious chorus; the chorus sort of whispers its way into the song, climaxing at the end). So it's not so much about how the songs are dressed up, or the types of sounds/production, or even the instrumentation. That's why Bono can, for example, call Nirvana's Nevermind album or the Pixies' Doolittle a couple of the greatest pop albums of all time, just as easily as he can call OutKast's Speakerboxxx one of the greatest pop albums of time, and just as easily can call 'Rubber Soul' one of the greatest pop albums of all time. It's also why we can call Achtung Baby one of the greatest pop albums of all time. It's not about the production. It's about the song structure itself. Ironically, one of the least poppy U2 albums is Pop. Its structure is almost like jazz in certain parts. There aren't too many obvious mainstream pop structures there, other than, say, 'Discotheque', 'Staring at the Sun' and 'Playboy Mansion', or maybe 'If God Will Send His Angels'. I think it's telling that the only singles that did reasonably well on the charts were three of those songs. Same with Zooropa, though Zooropa certainly has more of a pop sensibility than Achtung Baby, I would say. Not so much as full songs, but certain fragments or "idea" within the songs.

Anyways, I could go on.....but I will spare you the rest.

Is that the standard industry definition of "pop music?" Or your own subjective opinion? The reason I ask is that if it is the industry standard definition - then we can stop quibbling about some of the lesser (and more subjective) points.

 

[LemonMelon]

"Pop" is one of the most subjective and ever-changing genre tags one can apply. It's essentially useless unless you specify what era it originates from. The pop music of the 1950s is no longer pop as we think of it today, but rather categorized more specifically. The Beatles are a pop band because a large majority of the population finds their music appealing, but there is far more to their sound beyond the elements that make their music radio friendly. Rockabilly, acid rock, musique concrete, it's all in there at various points.

The only merit that "pop" has is a descriptor is that it describes the verse-chorus structure of radio-friendly music, and it allows the listener to expect a catchy melody. But, beyond that, the term isn't useful in describing the actual genre.

 

[AEON]

I guess it's time to get back on topic...There are basically 6 things I'm hoping DM does on the new album:

1) Hide whatever peddle Edge uses for the "chime" sound and push Edge to bring in something new, something we have't heard before from U2.

2) Tap into the raggedness of Bono's voice - especially on the slower songs, bring it front and center even with the cracks. Only "help" on the chorus.

3) Get rid of Edge's falsetto backup singing - it's starting to get creepy.

4) Keep the percussion sounding sharp, not muddled

5) Eliminate any bleeps and whistles from other DM projects. I do not like them.

6) Slap Bono every time he sings a poor lyric. Bad lyrics can kill otherwise good songs (looking at you MoS, MD, Breathe, Boots...etc).

 

[jeevey]

Pop music - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As a genre, pop music is very eclectic, often borrowing elements from other styles including urban, dance, rock, Latin and country;[1] nonetheless, there are core elements which define pop. Such include generally short-to-medium length songs, written in a basic format (often the verse-chorus structure), as well as the common employment of repeated choruses, melodic tunes, and catchy hooks.[1]

Citation taken from this article Pop Music - What Is Pop Music - A Definition and Brief History by a music journalist named Bill Lamb who I know nothing about, for what it's worth. It does look like Loris' definition is supported by others, though.

 

[AEON]

- written in a basic format (often the verse-chorus structure), as well as the common employment of repeated choruses, melodic tunes, and catchy hooks.[1]

So - NOT this:

only tomorrow - m b v - my bloody valentine - YouTube

 

[U2DMfan]

Lol - true. The devil's in the details. I was originally referring to Glider (an EP that certainly set the stage for Loveless) as MBV's direct influence on Achtung Baby - so I'm not sure why you would throw Isn't Anything randomly under the bus, and I assumed (my fault) you were generally stating that MBV and Stone Roses were quickly forgotten while U2 continued on to further fame and fortune. After rereading your post, I still understand your point about MBV and Stone Roses debut albums. What is it?

It's all muddy dude. I conflated the arguments. But I still stand by everything I said. I just don't think it was all applicable to what you were saying.

I wasn't saying MBV and Stone Roses were quickly forgotten, I was referring to the influence it all had on Achtung Baby.

And I was comparing it to the influence that U2 felt on the TJT. Which is an argument unto itself. I guess when you hear Trip Through Your Wires, you don't hear any Americana/roots music. Or RTSS. Or several others which would be a part of an agonizingly detailed diatribe that nobody would care about. I am fine that you need to disagree with that.

But anyway, you were practically implying that TJT was some album inspired in a vacuum of U2's own originality and on Achtung they were just heavily borrowing. The truth is all artists heavily borrow from everywhere. On top of that, I thought were saying what Slow Loris Griffith said, which was that Achtung was poppy or whatever. So it was a conflation.

So forgive me for that and I'll forgive you for professing to be heavy into the Manchester scene and forgetting all about MBV's first album.

 

[AEON]

So forgive me for that and I'll forgive you for professing to be heavy into the Manchester scene and forgetting all about MBV's first album.

Deal.

I do agree with you on most of these points - and I'm sure everything we're talking about is a sliding scale of influences.

I think that JT - with a few exceptions - pulled off a sound that was very unique at the time. The "Big Three" from JT certainly did not sound like anything else on the radio - either mainstream or alternative.

Achtung Baby sounded unique compared to U2, but it certainly didn't sound that unique to alternative radio - and to some extent mainstream. I'm fine with that - the Beatles were masters of blending influences - but that was all I was trying to say.

Also - I think they tried that same "blend" on POP and didn't quite pull it off. The last 3 albums sounds more like blends of old U2 more than anything else.


in the end - as I mentioned before - I hope U2 can make an album with the same vibe as The National's last album, of course - with their own twist of course. I think having a new producer will help them not sound like U2 (we would think) which is important for them (we would think).

 

[U2DMfan]

I'm sure people initially heard The Fly and thought, "wow, there's distortion on those guitars," and the sound bite about chopping down the Joshua Tree sounds iconoclastic. But if we really strip it down, is it all that different from U2 songs that came before it?

For U2, it was massive. That's the language you quoted - comparing TJT and Achtung. I wasn't comparing Achtung's 'reinvention' to Kid A or anything else.

But the image had a lot to do with it. You probably couldn't fully appreciate that if you're like...younger than 35. Not just the change but the significance of the change in that era of pop culture.

But there's definitely a musical argument there too.

I could talk about numerous musical elements by just sticking to The Fly, the riff pattern, the speed and style of solo, the bass in the chorus-outro, or even the very fact that there is a chorus-outro (at least twice, I think) or perhaps you could call it an interlude (it's no secret at all - descending bass).

But I would want to begin with Bono's voice. Because 'U2' are two things. But especially in 1991. Bono's voice and Edge's delayed guitar which is buried in this song. So Bono's voice is important in that dynamic. While Bono is singing through some kind of effect pedal to give him a thicker lower end.

But you're asking me to 'strip it all back'. Which kind of defeats the purpose of trying to appreciate U2 becoming more sonically adventurous at that time relative to what came before. Are you asking if they always have written fairly formulaic music in the Beatles-vein? Pretty much, yes. But the technology is part of the innovation. If that's a drum machine or a guitar effect.

So yeah, not only are you not addressing the visuals but we can't even use things like guitar effects. U2 are not going to break out a song in 5/4 timing or anything. 'Reinvention' means reinventing themselves. That's all.

 

[subnet]

You guys write long posts.

 

[LemonMelon]

There is nothing on those albums that sound anything like JT. Perhaps you're thinking of Rattle of Hum.

Running to Stand Still, Red Hill Mining Town and Trip Through Your Wires?

 

[Registered Dude]

I guess it's time to get back on topic...There are basically 6 things I'm hoping DM does on the new album:

3) Get rid of Edge's falsetto backup singing - it's starting to get creepy.

Crazy talk. You're obviously nutso. Looney tunes.

 

[Registered Dude]

I guess it's time to get back on topic...There are basically 6 things I'm hoping DM does on the new album:

3) Get rid of Edge's falsetto backup singing - it's starting to get creepy.

Crazy talk. You're obviously nutso. Looney toons.

 

[Registered Dude]

All work and no play make jack a dull boy

 

[david]

RE: TJT influence. While U2 were indulging in early 50s rock and roll and old country and western you can't deny as it had come up in some interviews the band were also finding inspiration in some modern acts. With or Without You was written while Bono was listening to a song called Cheree by a band called suicide. Edge was definitely inspired by Echo and The Bunnymen's song called Back of Love as the guitar work is similar. Exit.. Maybe some Patti Smith.

 

[AEON]

Running to Stand Still, Red Hill Mining Town and Trip Through Your Wires?

Maybe...since I was 16 when JT came out and I wasn't listening to Traveling Wilbury's - it's difficult for me to see that album in that light. To me - it's always seemed like a much more coherent version of Unforgettable Fire with a few American roots added in.

 

[The Slow Loris]

Define pop music as specifically as you can.

EDIT: Totally messed up my last two lines. I meant to type "Pop" instead of "Achtung Baby", lol.....

From a "music" sense of the phrase, "pop music" describes how an album is structured. By structure, I mean hooks or melody or rhythm, or a combination of all three (all boiling down to how "catchy" a song is). Sometimes there are obvious choruses and verses, but not always (think 'With or Without You', for example, which has plenty of hook and plenty of melody, but no obvious chorus; the chorus sort of whispers its way into the song, climaxing at the end). So it's not so much about how the songs are dressed up, or the types of sounds/production, or even the instrumentation. That's why Bono can, for example, call Nirvana's Nevermind album or the Pixies' Doolittle a couple of the greatest pop albums of all time, just as easily as he can call OutKast's Speakerboxxx one of the greatest pop albums of time, and just as easily can call 'Rubber Soul' one of the greatest pop albums of all time. It's also why we can call Achtung Baby one of the greatest pop albums of all time. It's not about the production. It's about the song structure itself. Ironically, one of the least poppy U2 albums is Pop. Its structure is almost like jazz in certain parts. There aren't too many obvious mainstream pop structures there, other than, say, 'Discotheque', 'Staring at the Sun' and 'Playboy Mansion', or maybe 'If God Will Send His Angels'. I think it's telling that the only singles that did reasonably well on the charts were three of those songs. EDIT: Same with Zooropa, though Zooropa certainly has more of a pop sensibility than Pop, I would say. Not so much as full songs, but certain fragments or "ideas" within the songs.

Anyways, I could go on.....but I will spare you the rest.

 

[The Slow Loris]

Is that the standard industry definition of "pop music?" Or your own subjective opinion? The reason I ask is that if it is the industry standard definition - then we can stop quibbling about some of the lesser (and more subjective) points.

My apologies for botching my last two sentences on my post (see my edited version above). But to answer your question, I would guess mine is close to the industry standard definition of "pop music", although I have to admit I haven't checked the actual definition.

 

[AEON]

My apologies for botching my last two sentences on my post (see my edited version above). But to answer your question, I would guess mine is close to the industry standard definition of "pop music", although I have to admit I haven't checked the actual definition.

Sounds good enough for me. Let's roll with it...

 

[AEON]

With or Without You was written while Bono was listening to a song called Cheree by a band called suicide. Edge was definitely inspired by Echo and The Bunnymen's song called Back of Love as the guitar work is similar. Exit.. Maybe some Patti Smith.

I went and checked out those songs on Spotify - I can't say I hear the influence - but I won't call Bono and Edge liars...

 

[AEON]

All work and no play make jack a dull boy

Bring out the gimp.

 

[LemonMelon]

RE: TJT influence. While U2 were indulging in early 50s rock and roll and old country and western you can't deny as it had come up in some interviews the band were also finding inspiration in some modern acts. With or Without You was written while Bono was listening to a song called Cheree by a band called suicide. Edge was definitely inspired by Echo and The Bunnymen's song called Back of Love as the guitar work is similar. Exit.. Maybe some Patti Smith.

Cheree

 

[AEON]

Cheree

Yeah - it was sort of cool. I hadn't heard it before today.

 

[AEON]

im not sure what to expect from the new album ?

which direction they will go ?
why they are working with danger mouse?

and one more question, what would be sales for the new album ?

i know that they were disappointed by the sales of NLOTH

IT sold 1,3 million in the us, but climates have changed

nowadays its hard for musicians to have a platinum album in the usa and multi-platinum is extremely rare

Welcome to Interference, Chris (unless you've posted under another pseudonyms). I think these are good questions.

I suppose all we can do is guess on the direction. I certainly hope it is not like the song on U2.com right now, "This Is".

I agree that sales a hard to come by these days, which is why I would love to see them take the MBV route and just drop the album out of the blue on a website (but I doubt they can contractually do this - but it would be very cool).

I would love to see them release this album - and just release an unofficial compilation of the other material they've been working on over the years that didn't make the cut (Rubin sessions especially).

 

[AEON]

You know - this discussion has made me listen to some U2 that I haven't listened to in awhile. Damn - you've got to admit, U2 has a vast collection of music that is so wide in variety it would make the Beatles jealous.