MERGED AGAIN: ...Is the Pope Next? + Pope John Paul II + JP2...+Pope John Paul Dead!

[all_i_want]

im not a catholic, i dont even subscribe to any of the religions, but i believe pope was overall a good person - at the very least someone who believed in what he did. and he did the best he could, as well.

but before he was pope, he was karol wojtyla. lets take a look at his life:

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/ns/news/package.jsp?name=news/popepre_timeline/popepre_timeline
http://www.lucidcafe.com/library/96may/johnpaul.html

 

[verte76]

EWTN jumped the gun. None of the big time news networks are saying he's died. I saw a huge crowd in front of St. Peter's praying the rosary with a group of cardinals.

 

[pax]

Schrodinger's Pope.

We need eight bazillion pounds of media coverage to totally screw up a simple matter of whether someone has died or not.

 

[verte76]

Not surprisingly, I can't get into the Vatican's site. There's no telling how many people are trying to get into this site. Forget it.

 

[U2@NYC]

II hope the next Pope is immensely better than this one. As a reluctant former Catholic, we, as a Church, deserve better. I want to someday again feel proud of the religion I grew up in.

Melon

You make what you want out of religion. I think that you need to show a little bit more respect for the Pope, even though you may not necessarily agree with all what he says.

 

[pax]

I don't think Melon said anything disrespectful. He doesn't seem to think this Pope did a good job, and he's entitled to that opinion.

 

[U2@NYC]

And if I do this with my own family members, I'm surely going to do it with people who have chosen to become public figures.

So the Pope chose to become a public figure?

You don't get it, do you? He was chosen.

And I disagree with you, I think that when he is about to die, you should show some respect. Feel free to discuss what you did not like about him after people have grieved. Otherwise, I am sorry, but you are showing a lot of disrespect.

 

[U2@NYC]

I don't think Melon said anything disrespectful. He doesn't seem to think this Pope did a good job, and he's entitled to that opinion.

As I have just posted, he's entitled to whatever opinion he wants. It is just a bad time to express that kind of opinion.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

John Paul II, I hope that, from up there, you finally feel that you have made it to the end of the road. That now, after giving us so much, is your time to receive.

That's beautiful

I don't agree w/ everything the Pope has said and done, but I give him my respect and admiration. Especially at this time. I don't wish to argue w/ anyone here about him or my opinion of him.

God Bless John Paul II

 

[pax]

Let's not turn this thread into another argument over what constitutes respectful behavior towards highly prominent public figures who have died or who are near death (i.e. NOT Reagan Part II). Rather, I'd like to see some meaningful discussion in which both sides can talk about what the Pope, and his eventual death, means.

Simply saying that you don't care for Pope John Paul II, or saying that you disagree with things he did and said, is not grounds for being yelled at. Likewise, however, "I hope he burns in hell" is probably inappropriate (NOT that anyone here would say this or has said it, I'm just using it as an example).

Everybody clear?

 

[Vorsprung]

Though i disagree with many of his viewpoints, i also believe he is a truly sincere and peace-loving man. A person who cared for humanity in general, but also a man who could't think in a different way because his true sincere beliefs wouldn't let him.

As a pro-condom pro-gay-rights non-theist catholic. May he rest in peace and may God (if there's any) have his soul...

 

[Laura M]

The pope is dying and to see anyone suffering so much, specially so publically, for me anyway, is very sad to watch. To see people arguing about his life now is extremley upsetting especially for people who feel that he plays an important role in their lives. I say give a dying man a break. I really hope that he is as comfortable as possible and he finds the peace that he is awaiting.

 

[verte76]

I'm a practicing Catholic and I don't mind criticism of the Pope now. If it were really mean-spirited or whatever and said "he should burn in hell" or something I'd object, but I have no problem with people criticizing the guy's theology or politics. I expect the Pope to be controversial, not universally loved.

 

[pax]

I'm a practicing Catholic and I don't mind criticism of the Pope now. If it were really mean-spirited or whatever and said "he should burn in hell" or something I'd object, but I have no problem with people criticizing the guy's theology or politics. I expect the Pope to be controversial, not universally loved.

 

[deep]

 

[pepokiss]

nobody reads this

this may sound a little bit stupid, but I really hope this:

I hope the Pope (hey, it rymes )

again

I hope the Pope doesn't die on April Fool's Day... it would be just too much...

I mean... this isn't a Seinfeld or Larry David episode

PS: specially when today it marks 18 years since the Pope came to Chile... now that sucks

 

[Vorsprung]

^he won't, it's april 2 already here (and in Rome)

 

[U2@NYC]

I'm a practicing Catholic and I don't mind criticism of the Pope now. If it were really mean-spirited or whatever and said "he should burn in hell" or something I'd object, but I have no problem with people criticizing the guy's theology or politics. I expect the Pope to be controversial, not universally loved.

I do have a problem with the timing of the criticisms and also expect the Pope to be controversial... I do not have issues with the criticisms themselves. As I said, everybody is entitled to their own opinion, but I would rather have them wait as a sign of respect.

But then again, that is also my own opinion.

 

[Nostradamus]

I hope the next Pope is immensely better than this one. As a reluctant former Catholic, we, as a Church, deserve better. I want to someday again feel proud of the religion I grew up in.

Melon

You are an angry and hate-filled intellectual. Nonpracticing you may be, Catholic you are. There is no former.

I assume your gripe is with the pope's uncompromising conservative doctrine and apparent hypocrisy flag-bearing in interreligious reconciliation and understanding. Either way, I believe the next in line is following one of the greats in Catholic history.

You need to get laid... Hah.. Damn.. Those green cards can be a bitch can't they?

.Nostradamus

 

[indra]

So the Pope chose to become a public figure?

You don't get it, do you? He was chosen.

And I disagree with you, I think that when he is about to die, you should show some respect. Feel free to discuss what you did not like about him after people have grieved. Otherwise, I am sorry, but you are showing a lot of disrespect.

You can disagree with me if you like, and you don't have to read what I write, but I disagree with you on almost every point.

a) yes he did choose to take a path toward a more administrative role in the church and therefore towards popedom. I do not believe for a moment he was divinely chosen, if that's what you are getting at. I don't think anyone is. He was chosen by a bunch of other cardinals...most who were probably hoping to get the job themselves.

b) I don't think that discussing his errors (in my view) shows any lack of respect. As I said, I do it when those close to me are dying or have died, so why should a public figure be any different?

You've a right to your opinion just like anyone else, but your opinion does not trump mine. And if you think I am disrespectful, that is fine with me too. Just don't expect me to shut up, OK?

 

[U2@NYC]

a) yes he did choose to take a path toward a more administrative role in the church and therefore towards popedom. I do not believe for a moment he was divinely chosen, if that's what you are getting at. I don't think anyone is. He was chosen by a bunch of other cardinals...most who were probably hoping to get the job themselves.

b) I don't think that discussing his errors (in my view) shows any lack of respect. As I said, I do it when those close to me are dying or have died, so why should a public figure be any different?

You've a right to your opinion just like anyone else, but your opinion does not trump mine. And if you think I am disrespectful, that is fine with me too. Just don't expect me to shut up, OK?

a. I never said 'divinely chosen'. He was chosen by other Popes and not with just the plain-vanilla hope of becoming a 'public figure'. My sense is that his love for Catholicism went beyond that. I might be naive... but I simply choose to believe that. Religion is sometimes hard to explain.

b. This is your own sense and you are entitled to do so. I would not, for instance, start criticizing my father's doings when he is about to pass away. This would be revolting, in my opinion. But, hey, everyone has his/her own personality.

And I never expected you to shut up. You can say whatever you want. This is a forum to express opinions... and also to disagree with them, which is what I did.

 

[nbcrusader]

You are an angry and hate-filled intellectual. Nonpracticing you may be, Catholic you are. There is no former.

I assume your gripe is with the pope's uncompromising conservative doctrine and apparent hypocrisy flag-bearing in interreligious reconciliation and understanding. Either way, I believe the next in line is following one of the greats in Catholic history.

You need to get laid... Hah.. Damn.. Those green cards can be a bitch can't they?

.Nostradamus

That's completely out of line.

And no such thing as a "former Catholic"? Please. It isn't genetic.

 

[Laura M]

That's completely out of line.

And no such thing as a "former Catholic"? Please. It isn't genetic.

I thought I was reading a joke to begin with

To see someone's death being turned into an argument/ bashing session is beyond me, really.

 

[indra]

And I never expected you to shut up. You can say whatever you want. This is a forum to express opinions... and also to disagree with them, which is what I did.

So we agree to disagree. No worries then!

 

[BrownEyedBoy]

I will not deny that he was definitely a good man who was on the right path of things but I have a problem with the whole "Pope" position.

Isn't the whole pomposity of the position, along with the way people seem to worship the ground he walks on, a complete aberration from true Christian teachings? Aren't christians suppossed to be humble and to worship only God? Whenever I see catholics kissing statues and praying to idols I cringe and wonder who taught them these things.

All of that aside, I do respect the man and the path he chose to live his life. Very admirable.

...I wonder if I can have the pair of sunglasses that Bono gave him now?

 

[XHendrix24]

I will not deny that he was definitely a good man who was on the right path of things but I have a problem with the whole "Pope" position.

Isn't the whole pomposity of the position, along with the way people seem to worship the ground he walks on, a complete aberration from true Christian teachings? Aren't christians suppossed to be humble and to worship only God? Whenever I see catholics kissing statues and praying to idols I cringe and wonder who taught them these things.

Well, first off we don't worship the Pope or any statues or idols. We have a high level of respect for the Pope, just as we do for Mary. As far as the statues and idols, we don't worship them. The only time that that might be remotely true is if it's depicting Jesus, in which case we're not worshipping the idol, but rather the thing the idol represents. For example, sometimes I'll pray in front of a crucifix. Now, I don't think that the crucifix has anything special about it or that some kind of spirit inhabits the crucifix. It's just a reminder that Jesus died for us. I'm praying to Jesus - not the crucifix.

I mean, I can see how things like that might seem strange to some people, but I'm just putting the point forward that we don't worship these things. Just to be clear.

 

[A_Wanderer]

The world will loose a great leader, Pope John Paul II ~ Cold Warrior with a cross

 

[tiny dancer]

can we make seperate threads for those who want to discuss what JP2 has done over his time as pope and one for his weakening health.

some of us don't want to read people bash him while he's on his death bed...

Thank you.
I am a practicing Catholic , and I share the sent thoughts as verte. I have been praying for him all day for a peace death.

 

[verte76]

I've been praying for the pope all day also. We're obviously about to lose a pope, a great pope in my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Teta040]

Look, I don't like his conservatism, but forst and formost for me, he is(was?) a great MAN> This was the man who isnpired Lech Walesa and SO MANY of the oppressed under the Comunist yoke to quietly begin thier intellectual movments that would come to fruition in 1989. He gave hope to so many, in a spiritual way, even if on paper he was too conservbative. I will always remember him as the man who kissed the ground of every country he touched down on...his eloqunet gesture even of kneeling and kissing the cement of an airport tarmac. That was his gesture, his symbol. It said so eloqunetly, that for him all the earth was equal, and we all are (or should be) one. That was agesture that went beyond Catholicism. I usually don;t put much store in symbolic gestures, but this never failed to move me beyond words.

If he has gone, form this non-Catholic, RIP. Thenext Pop won't have half your imagination...or inspiration..he'll be a standard man of the word.