Holy Kanye! Anybody else see this?

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diamond said:


ive been very respectful madam.

maybe another needs to pull their head out of a certain orifice that belongs to a guy who lives in a big white house and has a dog named Barney

and your posts are onlt agenda oriented it appears.

I respectfully disagree, you haven't been respectful-certainly not in what you said to BVS.. And you made that first comment w/ the :wink: after it, but I can't?

No I have no agenda other than I am extremely frustrated and angry at what is going on and with my government. I want people held accountable and I want people not to have to suffer because of incompetence and insensitivity.

Is your "agenda" to defend George Bush at any and all costs?
 
MrsSpringsteen said:


I want people held accountable and I want people not to have to suffer because of incompetence and insensitivity.

Is your "agenda" to defend George Bush at any and all costs?

No.
And if you want people to be held accountable you would take a step back and read the article above I just posted and realize that
A) race had nothing to do w it.
B) The Govt Officails of Louisiana and NO were much more responisble for and GW is being used as an emotional scapegoat by ppl hurting, wrongly so.
C)The Fed Govt did the best they could under the circumsatnces.
D) And I don't blindly support GW, respecting the fact that he is only a mortal in a postion that can be overwhelming at times but shouldn't be blamed for something not in his control.

db9
 
diamond said:


No.
And if you want people to be held accountable you would take a step back and read the article above I just posted and realize that
A) race had nothing to do w it.
B) The Govt Officails of Louisiana and NO were much more responisble for and GW is being used as an emotional scapegoat by ppl hurting, wrongly so.
C)The Fed Govt did the best they could under the circumsatnces.
D) And I don't blindly support GW, respecting the fact that he is only a mortal in a postion that can be overwhelming at times but shouldn't be blamed for something not in his control.

db9

Race has everything to do with it. Whether you are black or white, race is always an issue.

Everyone needs to be held accountable in some way. Bush had a bill presented to him that could have fixed the levees but he did not sign it. He had the chance to help out these people but he didn't do it.
 
Did you read this diamond? Why do you think African Americans feel that way..oh yes, they're only using George Bush as an "emotional scapegoat"

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/12/ka...poll/index.html

All that truly matters is what THEY think, feel, and experience-and THAT should truly matter to the rest of us

that link isn't working- I posted it earlier in this thread, that one might work
 
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erm, i don't know why or how a single article published in a small newspaper written by someone who is clearly mouthing the Rove talking points in regards to the disaster is somehow able to wipe out the near universal assessment by the first responders (the media) and the victims that the federal government, as well as the local governments, were excruciatingly slow in their response. i don't know how the article wipes clean the gaping distance between the idiot lines spouted by Chertoff, Brownie, and Bush in regards to the Convention Center and the levees and the reality on the ground.

but, hey, when you're grasping at straws and irrationally defending an administration, i suppose you take what you can get.

also, race is a factor. it amazes me when white people, especialy, seem to demand clear causation in order to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt racism. it's not as simply as Brownie saying, "i hate black people, so let's not send them aid." nothing in life is a clear cut as the demands some seem to have in order to prove that being poor and black is tantamount to second class citizenship in this country. it's more subtle, more complex, more tied into our very racist history and requires understandings of nuance and links between class and race that goes beyond a the simplistic a + b = c that some people apparently require to even countenance the idea that is so obvious to black people, whether rich or poor: race matters.

i'm going to start a thread on this topic, and i'm going to try and keep it as civil as i possibly can. no Kanye West, no George Bush hates black people and midgets, no Brownie is a fucking moron.

i think we need to tease out the historical ties between class and race and the government so that we can better understand what we mean when we say "race matters."

it does. only white people have the luxury of telling themselves that they are colorblind; or that they want to work to achieve a colorblind society.
 
Mrs S-

Some people are being manipulated by polictiains and entertainers such as Kayne, as you are.

db9
 
diamond said:
Mrs S-

Some people are being manipulated by polictiains and entertainers such as Kayne, as you are.

db9



how does that Kool Aid taste?

Rove makes it up real good, doesn't he?
 
Irvine511 said:
the near universal assessment by the first responders (the media) and the victims that the federal government, as well as the local governments, were excruciatingly slow in their response.

It is interesting that this assessement is automatically viewed as fact, rather than good headline material. FEMA took longer to respond in prior hurricane events, but with some coaching from television viewers, we are sold outrage as the proper measuring stick of response time. And has anyone stopped to consider that FEMA was not designed as a first responder entity?
 
diamond said:


Some people are being manipulated by polictiains and entertainers such as Kayne, as you are.

Uh, wrong. I'm not easily manipulated, trust me on that one. I have a decent mind and can think for myself.

So do you mean to imply that the African Americans who answered this poll, or in general, are being manipulated?
 
yes when an entertainer says that their President doesn't care about them because of the color of their skin and some believe it automatically, and when you in turn amplify that message when in fact you know GW isn't a racist then yes you as well as the masses have been manipulated.

db9
 
nbcrusader said:


It is interesting that this assessement is automatically viewed as fact, rather than good headline material. FEMA took longer to respond in prior hurricane events, but with some coaching from television viewers, we are sold outrage as the proper measuring stick of response time. And has anyone stopped to consider that FEMA was not designed as a first responder entity?



there's a point where cynicism about the media becomes naivete.

let's not forget that it was Bush 1's slow response time to Andrew -- that was likewise widely criticized -- was probably what cost him Florida in the 1992 election. also, there has been no previous hurricane disaster on the scale of Katrina where a metropolis was flooded and with a humanitarian crisis of 3rd World proportions at the Superdome and the Convention Center, so to compare it to Hugo or Andrew is baseless because the human needs -- food, water, sanitation -- were

and, as for FEMA being a first responder, they disagree with you:

"On March 1, 2003, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) became part of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS). FEMA's continuing mission within the new department is to lead the effort to prepare the nation for all hazards and effectively manage federal response and recovery efforts following any national incident. FEMA also initiates proactive mitigation activities, trains first responders, and manages the National Flood Insurance Program and the U.S. Fire Administration."

http://www.fema.gov/about/
 
diamond said:
Mrs S-

Some people are being manipulated by polictiains and entertainers such as Kayne, as you are.

db9

I don't feel like I'm being manipulated by anyone. I don't think Brown would have resigned if it hadn't been for the slow response to the disaster. The fact of the matter is that the Bush Administration has gutted FEMA, cutting its funds in half, and cut funding for the levees in New Orleans. Then they botched after the storm. Yes, so did the locals, who are all Democrats. New Orleans is a heavily Democratic city. It's being suggested that their exodus is going to swing Louisiana politics more towards the Republicans.
 
Irvine511 said:
there's a point where cynicism about the media becomes naivete.

let's not forget that it was Bush 1's slow response time to Andrew -- that was likewise widely criticized -- was probably what cost him Florida in the 1992 election. also, there has been no previous hurricane disaster on the scale of Katrina where a metropolis was flooded and with a humanitarian crisis of 3rd World proportions at the Superdome and the Convention Center, so to compare it to Hugo or Andrew is baseless because the human needs -- food, water, sanitation -- were

and, as for FEMA being a first responder, they disagree with you:

"On March 1, 2003, the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) became part of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS). FEMA's continuing mission within the new department is to lead the effort to prepare the nation for all hazards and effectively manage federal response and recovery efforts following any national incident. FEMA also initiates proactive mitigation activities, trains first responders, and manages the National Flood Insurance Program and the U.S. Fire Administration."

http://www.fema.gov/about/

Funny, cynicism of the media was considered an absolute necessity when he subject was the Iraq war. Why does questioning the editorial response to Katrina now become naivete?

Anyway

The quote from FEMA underscores my point. FEMA manages, trains, prepares first responders. They are not first responders as an entity. Look at the organizational chart for FEMA and show me how many individuals fall under the first responder catagory.
 
Rice Defends Bush's Race Record and Calls for Rebuilding Fairly

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, defending President Bush's record on racial issues, said yesterday that the hurricane disaster that disproportionately struck poor blacks in New Orleans "gives us an opportunity" to rectify historic injustices that she experienced as an African-American growing up in the South.

"When it's rebuilt, it should be rebuilt in a different way than it was at the time that this happened," Ms. Rice said in an interview at The New York Times, adding that "maybe now on the heels of New Orleans" there could be an effort to "deal with the problem of persistent poverty." [Click here to read a transcript.]

Ms. Rice spoke about a wide range of foreign policy issues, but seemed to speak most vehemently when she was asked what she told foreign leaders wondering about racial discrimination and poverty in the United States at a time when the Bush administration was promoting democracy around the world.

"You go to any other meeting around the world and show me the kind of diversity that you see in America's cabinet, in America's Foreign Service, in America's business community, in America's journalistic community," Ms. Rice said. "Show me that kind of diversity anyplace else in the world, and I'm prepared to be lectured about race."

When talking to foreigners about the hurricane victims, Ms. Rice said, she tells them: "Yes, we have a problem when race and poverty come together. We really do. It's a vestige of our history. It's a vestige of the Old South in this case. But don't misread that there has been no progress on issues of race in America."

Ms. Rice, who was born and spent her childhood in Birmingham, Ala., and who flew to Mobile two weekends ago to visit hurricane victims, rarely ventures into domestic political matters but has spoken many times over the last 10 days of those affected as victims of generations of poverty and racial discrimination.

"This is a part of the country I'm from," Ms. Rice said. "It is a place where there are pockets - by no means all of the Old South, but pockets - where race and poverty come together in a very ugly way."

But Ms. Rice rejected as "poisonous" any suggestion that President Bush himself would discriminate racially against any victims of the hurricane and said that his record on education, including aid to historically black colleges and the setting of standards for schoolchildren, demonstrated that he believed passionately in racial equality.

"I find it very strange to think that people would think that the president of the United States would sit deciding who ought to be helped on the basis of color, most especially this president," she said. "What evidence is there that this is the case? Why would you say such a thing?"
 
nbcrusader said:


Funny, cynicism of the media was considered an absolute necessity when he subject was the Iraq war. Why does questioning the editorial response to Katrina now become naivete?

Anyway

The quote from FEMA underscores my point. FEMA manages, trains, prepares first responders. They are not first responders as an entity. Look at the organizational chart for FEMA and show me how many individuals fall under the first responder catagory.



skepticism about the media is one thing, especially in a time of war when the reporters were "embedded" with troops (in order that they bond with the troops and thereby give more sympathetic portrayals of the mission). another difference is the tight restriction on information regulated by the Pentagon; this is vastly different from Katrina, where the media was on the ground far faster than the feds and when the media was reporting the disaster at the Convention Center that, apparently, went unnoticed by Brown and Chertoff

as for FEMA and first responders, it's bluntly obvious that FEMA is required to do far more than simply come in after a response and coordinate a relief effort. first responders fall under their direction. and regardless of that, do you think that FEMA has been anywhere near competent, especially in the first week after the hurricane hit land? thus, i really don't understand your point. who, then, is responsible for getting first resopnders into a disaster area? further, instead of facilitating first responders, as their mission statement says, the ineptitude of the agency -- which, again, falls onto Bush's lap -- actually created obstacles for the first responders.

example: Five West Virginia Air National Guard C-130 transport aircraft sent to pick up displaced victims from Hurricane Katrina returned home empty early Wednesday, following a series of frustrating bureaucratic snafus. "We met with obstacles everywhere we turned," said Lara Ramsburg, communications director for Gov. Joe Manchin. "It's been a frustrating experience." "To bring five planes back empty is a crying shame," Manchin told The Associated Press... "Until we hear something from FEMA — until they can put a plan together where we're sure the planes will be used — the planes will stay here," Ramsburg said. http://www.wvgazette.com/section/News/2005090727

finally, anyone who would hire as Director of FEMA a Michael Brown has made a ghastly, unconscionable mistake
 
diamond said:
yes when an entertainer says that their President doesn't care about them because of the color of their skin and some believe it automatically, and when you in turn amplify that message when in fact you know GW isn't a racist then yes you as well as the masses have been manipulated.


Nope I have not been manipulated. Yes I said that as far as I know he is not a racist, but I do believe that African Americans are justified in their opinions about him and in their frustration about how he has handled their plight in the hurricane and in many other avenues. I'm amplifying THEIR message.

And I felt and believed these things long before Kanye West even existed as a singer.

I have been banging my head against a wall here trying to get you to see that this is about much larger issues, I give up :shrug:
 
diamond said:
Do you not read the posts or the title of the thread?
Do you understand the meaning of the phrase "majority of posts"?
The scapegoat was GW provided by Kayne.
Can you not keep on topic?

and I would rather you sweat regarding me posting a link for you because I don't think you're really after the truth of this tragedy based on the tone of your responses and trolling.

Diamond,

Attacking another poster and accusing them of trolling in this manner is unacceptable. BVS simply asked you to provide evidence to back up one of your statements, there's no need to respond by accusing him of trolling and questioning his motives in posting in FYM. Please take some time to make sure your posts are respectful and deal with the subject at hand rather than insulting other posters. Please also remember that just because someone rejects your particular view of the situation does not mean they have been "manipulated" any more than you have been manipulated into forming your own opinions.

*Fizz.
 
diamond said:


and I would rather you sweat regarding me posting a link for you because I don't think you're really after the truth of this tragedy based on the tone of your responses and trolling.

db9

Tone and trolling, that's ironic coming from you.

I'm after the truth, that's why I read articles from all news sources. And in everything I've read I haven't seen one item about this "truth" you speak of. And, well since you brought it up, you hold the burden of proof, that's how it works in the real world.

So until then you might want to check out some of what Bush is saying himself
"To the extent the federal government didn't fully do its job right, I take responsibility,"
 
nbcrusader said:

And has anyone stopped to consider that FEMA was not designed as a first responder entity?

Absolutely...100% True....

FEMA is designed to support the State and their role is defined in the states emergency response plan which I posted links to.

Has anyone asked why the Governor of New Orleans STOPPED the Red Cross and Salvation Army from doing their part?

Nah....It's Bush's fault.
 
Dreadsox said:


Absolutely...100% True....

FEMA is designed to support the State and their role is defined in the states emergency response plan which I posted links to.

Has anyone asked why the Governor of New Orleans STOPPED the Red Cross and Salvation Army from doing their part?

Nah....It's Bush's fault.



Dread: read FEMA's mission statement again.

also, as for Blanco, on September 7th, Rep. John Conyers wrote to the Congressional Research Service and asked them to review the record to see whether she took the necessary steps in a timely fashion to secure federal assistance in the face of Katrina.

the report came back yesterday. and she did. read it yourself

http://www2.dccc.org/docs/conyersgaokatrina.pdf

the White House has been hitting her for weeks now claiming that in various ways she dropped the ball. and, now, that seems quite to be false.
 
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nbcrusader said:
Quote:
Originally posted by verte76
I don't feel like I'm being manipulated by anyone.

The key to manipulation is to avoid letting the individual know they are being manipulated :wink:

thats not your style nbcrusader

the key to dis critical people is to accuse them of being manipulated. stoopid concept, by the way.
 
Irvine511 said:




Dread: read FEMA's mission statement again.


Irvine...

The mission statement is not the law...

Shall I again post the links to LA's laws RE Evacuations?
 

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