For Dog Lovers.... Part 3

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Nice pics, Lies. It's so impressive how you've worked your way up to becoming a fairly serious trainer and handler with a growing array of awards for your own dogs. When you refer to your goal of "promoting the breed," how does that tie in with the breeders' mission of improving the breed? Are professional working-dog breeders usually involved with the people who bought and show their dogs, or is it more a question of your wanting to show the American audience for working-dog competitions what the dogs from these lines can do? I've never even been to a dog show...

Thank you, yolland. I distinguish between promoting and improving the breed because I think "improvement" is really an impossible, impractical goal. The breed, as the standard requires and as was originally designed and intended is, IMO, perfect, but that is only a standard. No dog is perfect. I have my idea of what I think most closely matches the standard, and someone else might have a totally different idea. When I strongly feel I have such a dog, I want to "promote" my interpretation of the standard and show off my dog.

I don't really enjoy showing dogs (as in, conformation shows) but I feel that my dogs ARE correct in their conformation so I present them to a judge. If I were to offer my males at stud, I can't go around saying "my dogs are correct, move well, this and that..." and then have a bunch of excuses not to show them. I do not purchase a dog with a single goal in mind, I purchase a dog that has a combination of many traits I'm looking for and then go from there. If I wanted only to win conformation shows, I'd have much different dogs. In German shepherds there is a HUGE (IMO, irreconcilable) split between American show line dogs, German show line dogs, and working line dogs (the latter including all west German, DDR, Czech, Slovak, Dutch, and Belgian lines/types). When I enter a show already I am outside the American show line mold because I am showing west German working line and west German show line dogs. However with a dog I truly feel is correct, I have not had much trouble getting show titles and top ratings. There is the rating/title and then the actual place/rank. My dogs will never place high, they will not be winning the Group and competing in the Best in Show ring, but they are fully capable of earning the show champion titles, winning ribbons in the breed ring (winning against other GSDs in their class), and obtaining the highest ratings possible under the German system.

As far as working line GSDs go, the majority of breeders and competitors with these dogs have nothing to do with showing them. GSDs have something called the "breed survey". Once the dog is 2+ years old, has obtained either a Schutzhund or HGH (large flock herding) title, has received at least one show rating of "G" (gut/good) or better, and has the hips and elbows evaluated under the German system, the dog can be presented for the breed survey. There are a good number of working line breeders and competitors that DO use the breed survey system, mostly people who take conformation into account or maybe use it as a marketing point, that their dogs are correct and versatile. I think many of the working line dogs that do not do a breed survey would be perfectly capable of it but often the owners want nothing to do with anything even remotely related to "showing" a dog.

I am somewhat of a title collector as well. Most big time breeders and competitors focus on one area - Schutzhund or conformation/show, depending on the type of dog they prefer. I do Schutzhund (which includes tracking, obedience, and protection), conformation, herding, agility, dog diving, lure coursing, personal protection.... Because I do not breed and have so few dogs I can dabble in as many things as I like. Pan will be more of a Schutzhund dog because that is where he is best suited and could be a much higher level competition dog than Nikon. Nikon is more of a "jack of all trades, master of none".

The shows I attend are great socialization for puppies and young dogs. Since it's not at the top of my priority list as far as being competitive in this venue, I show puppies and young dogs, and once they are adult they have hopefully received their Champion title and "retire" from conformation unless I have extra time or money which isn't likely! I tend to front-load the conformation events since the Schutzhund training doesn't kick in until after teething and agility cannot be started until the dog is physically more mature in their joints. It's a very chaotic atmosphere, a great opportunity to expose the dog to many other dogs and people in close quarters, lots of noises and smells, having a judge "manhandle" the dog, being in a crate in a new environment, etc.

As for the Border Collie article, I agree with you. BC's are usually considered the "smartest" dog but that takes several factors into account. The BC is fairly biddable, a breed of dog bred to work closely with humans and enjoy a relationship with humans. There is drive, but then there is the threshold. A dog that is hyper and almost neurotic in how it acts towards the handler and how fast it seems to learn is not necessarily "drive". I prefer a dog with high drives AND a high threshold. This combination is more of a clear-headed, thinking dog. If you want a dog that is very fast, flashy, snappy looking obedience then you want a dog with high prey drive and a lower threshold so it learns at that neurotic pace. Some of the herding breeds like BCs and Aussies have that higher prey drive and a lower threshold and also have a bit sharper nerve, more of a reactive dog. Not always a bad thing, just depends on what you want and why you want it.

Belgian Malinois are another great example of very high drive dogs that almost look out of their minds doing obedience because they are SO precise and flashy. In the Schutzhund protection routine there is an exercise where the dog must heel alongside the handler five paces behind the helper (the attacker) and then the helper will turn and attack them. The dog is supposed to defend the handler. I was recently watching a trial video of this girl who has this Malinois that has amazing obedience, and during this exercise the dog was doing such a prancy, flashy "heads-up" heel looking straight up into the handler's eyes that he missed the attack! The helper was nearly on the handler by the time the dog noticed and counter attacked. In the grand scheme of things it was only a few points lost, but this is again where people differ between wanting high points or wanting a clear dog. Nikon may not prance around like a pony during his protection routine but never in a million years would he miss an attack on me. That dog's prey drive is so over the top in obedience mode that it clouds the dog's ability to think and be wary of his environment. I would trade 30 points from my obedience routines to have a dog that never misses an attack on the handler. But, it goes back to the beginning...I have my idea of what is correct, an someone else has theirs...
 
Thanks for all the detail, that was really interesting! Especially the stuff about drive and threshold. I don't really see myself ever aspiring beyond dog as running/hiking buddy and obedient family companion, but in an armchair way, dogs as working animals with their own special attributes by breed is fascinating to me. I'd really like to see a couple dog shows/competitions someday, just to watch up close how different handlers interact with their dogs and the differences in how they respond...
 
You're welcome. Dogs can best be understood through operant conditioning. If you only ever read one book pertaining to dog behavior it should be Don't Shoot the Dog! by Karen Pryor. Often people send me links to "studies" about dog training or communication and to be honest, none of them ever mean anything to me because they always seem to be examining how dogs learn or communicate through the lens of how humans learn and communicate, or they reach very vague or "duh" conclusions that any half-decent dog trainer could have told you. A human is a human and a dog is a dog. I'd rather read articles written by some of the top trainers or animal behaviorists. I am interested in how dogs and humans communicate with each other, not in trying to understand all the nuances of dog-dog communication or trying to train my dog to communicate more like you and me.

Sometimes these studies sterilize everything so that the relationship between dog/handler and the genetics of the dog become control factors. My dog Nikon will alert (go to the end of the leash and bark), bite, release, and recall to heel position on command but he won't do that for Phil or for you. Also he is genetically high defense and high threshold. How he trains and works has everything to do with his relationship with ME and his unique balance of drives that is controlled by genetics. I'm not saying the relationship means he "loves" me and protects me because he is loyal to me, only that a relationship exists and it is not the same as a relationship with my husband or my dad or my friends. For all I know it is entirely self-serving: the dog's defense of his handler is a form of "resource guarding" because he understands that I provide food, water, toys, shelter, and fun. When someone contacts me for training or behavior advice I need to know what is the breed of dog and what were the previous interactions and training attempts like, can't read from some generic script.

If you want a basic understanding of dog training and behavior you have to understand the four quadrants of operant conditioning and that genetics is always going to dictate everything about the dog. If your dog has a genetic spectrum from red to yellow you can train him a behavior in the orange but not the blue.
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And if you want to see a show come to the UKC Premier! Conformation, terrier races, dock diving, obedience, agility, rally, lure coursing, bitework/protection... has it all.
 
I don't normally use PhotoShop but I've been playing around with Pioneer Woman's black and white action:

Pan enjoying about a month back (before his black fur came in and his eyes darkened)
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Nikon doing the shake, Aug 2010
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Coke pondering life, last week
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Older dogs often get overweight b/c they aren't as active and/or have other problems that limit their activity, but IMO it should not be "normal" (as in, excused). They need to be at a healthy weight or it will cause more stress on their already aging joints. Swimming is good for older dogs, good exercise with no impact.
 
We had a dog adopt us as her people tonight. My mom went outside and she was on our porch, sniffing around. My mom checked her out, she's been very well taken care of, but she has no collar. So since it was snowing and supposed to get below freezing tonight, we took her in. And she is the sweetest thing. She even loves my brother, despite him poking and pulling at her. We're going to try to find her people, but we'd love to keep her.
 
Aw, that's very kind. I would bring her to a vet or animal shelter and have them scan for a microchip. Also call the local animal shelters and tell them you have the dog. Most owners looking for their dog will call the animal shelter first to see if it has been reported. If the dog appears well taken care of, generally someone is looking for it and the dog has not been lost for too long. Even after just a few days being lost a dog can start to look very ragged (my dog was lost for three days and when I got her back she was covered in prickers and could barely walk because her feet were sore and bleeding from searching for us). If it's a case of someone not doing a good job containing their dog and allowing it to roam, then you may be better of bringing the dog to the animal shelter once the owner is identified so that the owner has to pay the fine and get the lecture from them on allowing their pet to be in danger. It could just be a matter of the dog getting away by accident though, so I would not keep the dog without an effort to make sure the owner is not looking. When my dog got away (she was being cared for by someone else and got away from them), we had an entire neighborhood of people looking for her day and night, fliers posted everywhere, alerted the police, the animal control, went to all the dog shelters, and she was still lost for three days. In the end she got so tired of trying to find me that she went up to a girl who looks like me and the girl got my number off her collar. I was worried sick that someone would take her in without reporting her missing.
 
We found the pug's people. She lived only two doors down! They came looking for her yesterday. We're glad she's home, but she was the sweetest thing.
 
aww Lies, that must have had you round the bend with worry.


mind you, when we had Rocky, he too had gone missing for I think a day or two and the milkman found him prob like couple of streets away, possibly round near the house he used to live in (the family moved), and managed to coax him to follow the milkfloat round to our house, LOL!

:D
 
Yes it was bad, and especially for the people that lost her, they felt terrible and I felt terrible for them, but I didn't have the bad gut feeling that I get sometimes so I knew she'd come back eventually. We had two calls with legitimate sightings, went to one girl's house but she didn't have my dog (a twin!), and then finally she was caught and returned to me. She could barely walk for three days b/c the pads on her feet were torn from trotting around trying to find home.
 
Our dog is traveling from the other side of the world!

So our dog is due to arrive tomorrow morning after traveling for well over 24 hours. We shipped her over from the island of Saipan in the central Pacific where we used to live. We moved more than a year and a half ago and she's been "looked after" (sort of) by friends. We'd been dithering for quite awhile trying to decide whether to put her through the ordeal (and us the expense) of shipping her over. We finally decided to do it because her situation in Saipan looked to be worse than whatever she might go through getting here.

Here's a link to a blog entry I wrote about our dilemma:

Here in America: Kimo in Crisis

Anyone have thoughts on what we can expect from her when she arrives? She was the perfect dog in Saipan--housebroken, never chewed on things, didn't bite or anything. I'm not sure if any of that will be true after the traumtic experience of this trip.

Add to all this we have a two year old son who shares our two bedroom apartment.

Thanks to anyone who might be able to provide some insights. I'm sure I'll be back here with an update on her homecoming tomorrow.
 
:) Heh, heh. You got my hint. . .

Your PM box is always full and I didn't have your e-mail, so I was racking my brain as to how to get ahold of you. Then I thought. . .of course, the dog lovers thread.

I'm sure you'll be hearing from me. . . I'm kind of terrifed to be honest. My wife is more optimistic.
 
Yeah I rarely use PMs (b/c I'm on several forums, mostly dog, keeping up with PMs on all would be a full time job) so I leave it full. E-mail is best.

Will she be seeing a vet soon? I ask b/c the post mentioned heartworm, and if a dog tests positive people tend to freak out, but she is an older dog, no? If she tests positive I would *wait* to do any treatment. Many vets will push for it immediately. Depending on severity though, it might be best to wait, especially if re-homing or surrendering to rescue is on the table (sometimes they will do this treatment), and if the dog shows stress from the move it would be better to settle a bit before treatment. Treatment can be stressful on them physically (like chemo for humans) and if she has other infection as the post mentioned I would treat those first before further compromising the immune system. Also you can get the treatments online, like from Amazon, probably much cheaper than the vet. I get 50mL of ivermectin for under $40 on Amazon. For monthly heartworm prevention this is enough for all three of my dogs for the entire year. By comparison, I'd have to pay my vet $6 per tablet, per dog, per month (and the solution I use from Amazon I actually dose 8 times higher than the tablets you get from the vet). The same drug is used for treatment but it is dosed differently. Make sure not to give her any heartworm prevention unless she is verified negative for heartworm (b/c if you give it at the lower "preventative" dose but the dog is HW+ it can be more damaging).
 
There are various kinds of "exercises" one can do to reinforce a dog's trust and confidence with the situation of having a child around (along the same lines of exercises you can do with a dog that's guardy with food, or attacks electrical cords, or whatever). Lies could advise on things like that better than I could.

Some things that come to mind from my own experiences keeping a (dominant-natured and strong-willed, but not aggressive) dog and three small kids together under one roof, happily: Make sure both dog and child are as relaxed as possible before (re)introducing them--take Kimo for a walk first, for example. Stay calm and confident (classroom management experience can be useful here!) while overseeing them--remember it's natural and normal for a dog to be uncertain at first how to respond to an unexpected new "pack member," and that if you're giving off OMG-what-if-the-dog-bites-the-baby vibes, the dog may pick up on your anxiety and conclude that the child is destabilizing the household and needs to be "disciplined." Talk and show your son through the process of interacting properly with a dog: let Doggie sniff you first (from a respectful distance, which you should maintain between them, calmly and gently blocking or correcting Kimo and waiting for her to calm down as needed should she rush forward, growl, etc.); don't pet or talk to Doggie until she shows you she's ready for that by calmly presenting herself for petting (again, don't let Kimo excitedly lunge up to him, lick or paw him all over, etc.); talk to and pet Doggie quietly and gently, never with yelling or tugging; don't bother Doggie if she shows you she wants to be alone by turning away from you. Realistically, given your son's age, you'll want to monitor them whenever together at first--more on the child's account, in my experience; dogs learn faster than toddlers what the drill is, so long as your leadership is consistent.

Good luck! I really admire you guys for bringing her all the way out here.
 
There's all these different things you can do and try, but really, when it comes to my own dogs and kids (not mine, don't have any), I go with my gut. If I feel like I need to have eyes on the back of my head to manage interaction between one of my dogs and children, then I probably do. I have two dogs I trust pretty unconditionally with children and two I don't - one that simply doesn't tolerate them, and another that actually likes kids a little TOO much and can get overly aroused in prey drive with them running around screaming, or wants to interact but doesn't know his own strength. The dog that doesn't tolerate kids I will never trust with children no matter how much desensitization I do with dog and/or child, or how much I enforce mutual respect, or how much I manage the environment. The other will be fine in time. For me it is something I feel out, and once I've done that there's not a lot of wiggle room for the dog to convince me one way or the other. But, having large, powerful, working bred and working trained dogs I hold them to a very high standard and there's no room for error. Even an accidental nip where a kid is playing with the dog using a toy, jerks the toy away at the last second and the tooth makes contact looks like an "attack" when your breed of choice has a black muzzle and black saddle.

Just off the top of my head I would give the dog her own space for a while to adjust and decompress. I would not show a lot of attention other than meeting her basic needs and only following through on interactions that she initiates (ie, if she puts her head in your lap, scratch it). I'm not sure I would even attempt interactions with the toddler until she has had time to adjust and you've been able to assess her health and mental state. Like I said, I don't have kids, but this is generally my protocol if I have to introduce a new dog. My dogs understand that I am the provider of all resources and with each dog I have a mutual trust and respect. Even with multiple intact males I do not have fights or spats, no food or resource guarding, not so much as a defiant sideways glance in my direction. If I were to add another dog to the household I would start by secluding that dog, letting it decompress, and building trust and respect before introducing other members of the household. Then if there is an issue between the dog and another person or dog, at least I have already laid the foundation of the dog deferring to me. Treat the dog the way you would appreciate being treated in that scenario - given some time and space, basic needs met, and very limited interactions except with the person(s) that you should learn to trust and obey.
 
Just off the top of my head I would give the dog her own space for a while to adjust and decompress. I would not show a lot of attention other than meeting her basic needs and only following through on interactions that she initiates (ie, if she puts her head in your lap, scratch it). I'm not sure I would even attempt interactions with the toddler until she has had time to adjust and you've been able to assess her health and mental state...If I were to add another dog to the household I would start by secluding that dog, letting it decompress, and building trust and respect before introducing other members of the household. Then if there is an issue between the dog and another person or dog, at least I have already laid the foundation of the dog deferring to me.
I'll totally second this, to the fullest extent space allows--I initially misread Sean's post as saying they had a "two room" apartment, but looking again I see he actually said two bedroom apartment. Yeah, giving a dog "safe space" when introducing it to new surroundings (or people, or animals) is always preferable, especially as you said so that the foundation of your being in charge is laid firmly in place first.
Even an accidental nip where a kid is playing with the dog using a toy, jerks the toy away at the last second and the tooth makes contact looks like an "attack" when your breed of choice has a black muzzle and black saddle.
I never let our kids play tug games with Falstaff, and as I said once before (I specifically remember this, because you then told me about "pressure points"! :D ), I'm not sure I'd do it myself in the future either, assuming we eventually get (another) 'bully'-disposition type dog--they can get fixated and frenzied so quickly with activities that engage their mouths in that way, and will keep 'attacking' the toy even if you let go and stop playing (teaching him to retrieve presented similar problems, and took a looooong time though he eventually got the hang of it). I'm sure that's not insurmountable or anything--some of the larger bully breeds do Schutzhund occasionally, after all--but in retrospect I don't feel I contributed anything positive by doing that with him.

Probably neither here nor there with regard to Sean's dog though...

When you say you "will never trust" one of your dogs with children, do you mean you don't trust it not to snap/bite in response to petting even if you're present and the child is behaving respectfully, or do you more mean its threshold for stimulation is relatively low and can't tolerate running, roughhousing etc. going on right next to it?
 
Both, yolland, but they describe two different dogs. Kenya is best described as just plain being intolerant of children. I'm not sure if it is based in fear/insecurity, or a general dislike. There is something about small children, the way they often approach and handle a dog that she does not appreciate. She has never bitten a child but honestly that's because of careful handling on *my* part. She is also a dog that non-dog people cannot "read". She doesn't hackle, growl, or do any of the things people expect to see when a dog is telling them to "back off". She's an air snapper and will give a correction bite if she's backed into a corner (literally or figuratively). She is very much a one person dog that is actually very correct as far as German Shepherd temperament - very aloof towards others, has no desire to interact with anyone else. There have been several times I've let kids interact with her but it's clear she gets no enjoyment out of it. She also gets nervous when kids who are unsure of themselves around a dog try to approach. Then generally walk straight in slowly, staring at the dog, often reaching out above the dog and jerk their hand away if the dog moves to sniff them. Kenya can be kind of a neurotic nervebag and that sort of behavior makes her skittish and defensive. Since she has no desire to befriend people, it's relatively easy to keep her apart from kids, I just crate her or put her in a separate room and she's happier anyway.

Nikon loves kids but can get overstimulated if there is a lot of running around and roughhousing. He doesn't nip or bite, not an ankle biter by any means but he will start barking because he's very vocal and even a happy, play bark from him can sound rather menacing. One "issue" with my dogs in general is they don't have very good manners around people. They mind me of course but I don't spend a lot of time training them to sit with their butts flat when people come over, not to bark, not to jump up and lick people. With as many dogs and all the other training we already do, it's easier for me to put them away when company is over. Most of my friends and family don't like dogs anyway and I'm respectful of that. So, Nikon basically being a 75lb 2 year old puppy might get excited and jump on a visiting kid. He could knock someone over or scare them unintentionally. With age and maturity this improves on its own so I have no worries about him if I were ever to have kids of my own. When my friends kids come over, I crate him for a while and if they want to, we take him for a walk or I let them play tug or fetch with him. That way he has something to do. He has always loved kids though and he's learning some tricks for a demo for Phil's class (second grade).
 
Well, she's here and so far so good. It's gone much more smoothly than I anticipated. She and Elijah have done fine so far--we just supervise their interaction and it seems to be fine. They're both a bit jealous of Mommy's attention but it's not been problematic.

She seems very much the same dog we left in Saipan, despite the rigors of the trip. Right now she's just lying down in the living room, relaxing much as she did back in Saipan. She doesn't seem skittish or upset or traumatized at all. She's also not unusually lethargic or sluggish. She just seems normal. We think she may have "held it" the entire 40 plus hour trip, because Barbara says as soon she got out of the kennel she went straight to some grass and peed for a very long time and thing defecated as well. Her kennel didn't appear to be soiled at all. That doesn't suprise me though, because even in Saipan, she seemed to go for very long periods without using the bathroom. I know it's not healthy for them to hold it that long but at least does appear that she will continue to be housebroken, which is a relief.

Her skin is in pretty bad shape, but should get better with time. She's a bit thin too. When she went to the vet in Saipan just before they shipped her, she tested negative for heartworms so that's good.

I'll be doing another blog this weekend with pictures and videos and let you all know when I post it.

Thanks for your thoughtful responses, both of you! :hug:
 
Oh, and one question.

How soon is too soon to leave our dog at home alone?

We're wondering if we should take her with us when we return the rental car tomorrow morning, if we should go to church (Black Church tends to run long. We'd probably be gone three hours or so).
 
Well, we've had our first issue. It's not really new. She did this in Saipan too. Anytime someone approached the house, including our neighbors who lived in the duplex next door she'd start barking.

Well, the neighbors upstairs in our apartment complex just go home late and that set her off just as it did in Saipan. She barked for maybe 5 minutes, not more than ten, not just when they went up the stairs but when she could hear them creaking around above us. Is there a way that we can get her to stop doing this? By some miracle she didn't wake our son, and she's quiet again now.

Just worried that she could become a nuisance if she can't get used to the traffic that comes with apartment living.
 
How soon to leave home.....well I generally do right away b/c I want the dogs to adjust to my lifestyle ASAP which involves me coming and going without them. That said, two of my three dogs are crated when I leave. Coke has free reign of the house but he's quiet, laid back, and harmless. Nikon used to be free but randomly started chewing objects so he went back to being crated. Since we moved I've still been crating him or leaving him in the "dog area" of the basement (large, finished room that is just dog crates, dog beds, and dog toys). Pan is always crated when we leave b/c he's still very much a puppy and can be pretty destructive. Also I don't like the dogs roughhousing with each other when I'm not around. I don't think they'd fight but it can get loud and they start knocking into my stuff if I'm not there to tell them to cool it when it's too rough.

As for the barking, I'd give her a week or two to settle in. It's hard to really see their true colors right away. When my dogs get too barky I crate them away from me, sort of like a "social punishment", because I want them to know that I don't need them to alert me of *every* little squeak. If they start, I say "THANK YOU" after three barks or so and if they don't quit, then I just get up without saying anything, lead them by the collar to a crate or separate room, and put them there until they are quiet for at least 10 seconds straight. Pan is being really barky right now at our new house when he's outside. I swear he starts barking if a leaf blows in the wind. He's getting three strikes. I ask him twice to stop and if he doesn't, then he has to come inside and be gated in the basement until he calms down.
 
Kimo is doing well at one week since her arrival. She's put on a little bit of weight, her coat looks better, and she's even more herself--scratching at the door to go out just like in Saipan (she's still learning that she can't just be let out into the yard like she could back in Saipan).

Barbara takes her out in the morning before work, in the early afternoon when she and Elijah come home, and for half hour walk or so in the evening.

So far she is doing really, really well. The adjustment has been much better than I ever hoped for.

Here's the link to my blog about her arrival, which I posted last weekend. I'll put up another one this weekend with more recent pictures.

Here in America: The Perfect Dog
 
Glad to hear things are going well. :) She's a handsome dog, such pretty eyes.
 
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