indra
ONE love, blood, life
- Joined
- Jan 20, 2004
- Messages
- 12,689
financeguy said:
No he bloody well wasn't.
Yes he was.
financeguy said:
No he bloody well wasn't.
Ormus said:
On this subject, I lean towards the latter. In other words, it was neither "right" nor "wrong," but, instead, unimportant.
Ormus said:
On this subject, I lean towards the latter. In other words, it was neither "right" nor "wrong," but, instead, unimportant.
INDY500 said:
These words not only signaled to the Soviets that they were no longer dealing with Nixon or Carter but they also gave great hope to the dissidents in the gulags and citizens living in occupied Eastern Europe.
Vincent Vega said:I stumble myself upon seeing anything good in the Soviet Union.
INDY500 said:
"The march of freedom and democracy will leave Marxism-Leninism on the ash heap of history."
"Evil empire."
"Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall."
These words not only signaled to the Soviets that they were no longer dealing with Nixon or Carter but they also gave great hope to the dissidents in the gulags and citizens living in occupied Eastern Europe.
Where others condemned the Soviets, Reagan called them evil and challenged the legitimacy of their system, labeling it not just wrong but immoral.
And as Margaret Thatcher said at his funeral "Ronald Reagan won the Cold War without firing a shot?"
The world could do with more "cheerleaders" like Ronald Reagan.
Vincent Vega said:
When he held this speech, Glasonost and Perestroika were already in full progress.
The people of East Germany didn't went on the streets because Reagan told Gorbachev to tear down the wall (by the way, it is a very interesting story how it came to this sentence. Reagan and some of his staff werer visiting ordinary Berliners, and when they got asked what pissed them off the most they simply replied it was the wall going through the city).
Nevertheless, the economy in East Germany and the whole countries of the Soviet Union was so weak they couldn't survive any longer. First the Solidarnosz movement in Poland, and later the downfall of East Germany gave Gorbachev enough reason and strength to put an end to the Soviet Union.
Of course it is a bit off to say the Soviet Union of Gorbachev's time was the evil empire. The "empire" of his predecessors sure was evil (historians estimate that all in all Stalin alone killed up to 150million people).
Vincent Vega said:Yes it was, but nevertheless Reagans "tear down this wall" wasn't more than it was, a sentence that became historic.
Kennedy's "Ich bin ein Berliner" has so much more power and influence up to this day. This is a sentence that gets cited over and over again, not Reagan's speech or sentence.
The Monday protests didn't start after they heard Reagan's speech, sorry.
INDY500 said:
Always nice to have the perspective of someone who's actually lived history. I've been to Deutschland but never Berlin, I'm sure it's all very interesting.
anitram said:
That's why when you make the sort of statements you've made here, you should really ask yourself first whether they are factual or if they're just something you've been told and believed it to be true.
Like this speech - it simply was not at all what you characterized it to be.
Vincent Vega said:Well, fans of Reagan say: "Reagan made the Berlin Wall come down."
Fans of Kohl say: "Kohl made the Berlin Wall come down."
Fans of Gorbachev say: "Gorbachev made the wall come down."
And so on.