children: to have, or have not ...

[Muggsy]

I can't agree with you more, Golightly Girl

 

[Irvine511]

very interesting ... i remember a few years ago watching Sen. Mary Landrieu debate her opponant (who's name escapes me) on "Meet the Press."

it was unbelievable how nearly every sentence began with the phrase, "Well, Tim, speaking as a mother ..."

i actually took it less as an example of the importance they placed on being a mother and more as a calculated appeal to their constituents, that a woman couldn't possibly be interested in politics unless it were an extention of her god-given role as wife and mother and that no matter what else, she is a mother first and a politician second.

and while that's true, i wonder how many men have to reiterate how they are fathers and husbands first, and then politicians (or whatever) second.

and mad props for "placenta-brained twit."

though i'd love to shift the conversation away from "parents we can't stand" and try to focus on the pressures to become parents and how we respond to them, and why people have chosen not to have children.

for the people who have chosen not to have children, why? how do people react when they find out you are childless?

 

[anitram]

I think this has to do with the fact that "mommy" has become almost an industry. You have a billion Mommy and Baby and Mommy and Mommy bonding, yoga, massage, music, shopping and I dunno what other kind of classes and seminars you can join. When this is all these women do on a daily basis, is it any wonder that their lives become insular?

I still know plenty of people with kids who didn't go Mommy nutty like that, so obviously it's possible. But there is that really annoying segment of society out there that behaves as described in the posts above.

What bothers me more than anything though is when some women have kids and then attempt to convince the rest of us that we must pop out a baby as well, preferably ASAP. And the ones who take their screaming children (usually toddlers) out to the mall or the grocery store or wherever when it's clear the kids should be napping and then they scream at the top of their lungs, or run up and down the aisles or toss things on the floor. Or they just let them run wild around. I remember when I worked for a hockey arena and parents would bring their kids over for junior hockey games and then they'd sit and chat with each other while their kids climbed railings, dunked popcorn into Coke and threw it at other kids or the ushers, ran around with reckless abandon, and swore at anyone in a position of authority who actually told them to stop. I can't tell you how many times I went to the parents' seats to complain and they would say to me something like "Give them a break, they're just kids, and give us a break, we need a bit of time to ourselves." I'm not your child's babysitter, you ingrate! Your kids may be cute to you, they ain't to the rest of us.

 

[Muggsy]

for the people who have chosen not to have children, why? how do people react when they find out you are childless?

well.. My plans for the future never included having kids, because I want to do so many things: I want to travel, to work, to be an artist, and I just don't want the responsability of being a mom.

I don't really care if others think that I'm selfish, but I can say that it would be really unfair to have kids that I can't raise because of my Life style. Besides I have to deal with many emotional stuff that makes me a very loner and closed person, I don't want a kid to suffer with a mom who is emotionaly unestable and is always struggling to be happy and pursue her dreams.

It is funny, but the worst reactions come from people who are outside my family. My mom knows me and she agree with me that having children isn't the best option for me. Many people have told me that I'm selfish and women must have children because thats part of their nature.

 

[anitram]

though i'd love to shift the conversation away from "parents we can't stand" and try to focus on the pressures to become parents and how we respond to them, and why people have chosen not to have children.

for the people who have chosen not to have children, why? how do people react when they find out you are childless?

Alrighty, back on topic.

I think I hold similar views to yours, at least from what I've read here. I'm not dying to have kids by any means, but I wouldn't say that I wouldn't have them with absolute certainty. I am pretty sure I don't want biological kids, though, because ever since I was young I always saw adoption as something that appealed much more to me.

Why no kids? For a variety of complicated reasons, I guess. While I love babies and I love teenagers (go figure), I've never really loved kids. Doesn't mean I despise them, but I was never one of those people who got warm fuzzies being surrounded by 6 year olds. I've always really liked my career and academic life and wanted to have certain freedoms there to move around and make decisions based on my on interests and well-being, and not that of any dependents. Some will say that's living selfishly, and that's fine, it's their prerogative, but I think it's imperative to realize what's important to you and then prioritize accordingly rather than blindly going with the majority rule. So I'm not bothered by it too much. And the last reason is that I'm not keen on marriage at all, and am just more comfortable with people moving in and out of my life transiently, probably because it's how I grew up, up and moving around the world on short or no notice and never really developing roots. And I'm not really sure that I'd want to raise kids on my own, so that factors in to the decision.

As for how people react - mostly I don't care. My close friends all know how I feel and I never have a problem with them. My parents are better than I could have hoped for, and the only people who really care are my grandparents who would get in their (offensive) digs over and over again. However all three of them have very advanced Alzheimer's and don't know my name anymore so it's really no longer an issue. And professionally, the career I've chosen is rather conducive to a childless life anyway, so I don't see it as a problem.

 

[martha]

for the people who have chosen not to have children, why? how do people react when they find out you are childless?

I've known I didn't want kids since I was a teenager. I work best alone, and the only person whose company I can enjoy for an extended period of time, besides my own, is my husband's, and even then I go off by myself quite a bit.

I didn't want to share my life with someone I'd have to put first. I believe that your child is your top priority, and I didn't want to do that.

I tend to have a rather strong personality, as you may have all guessed, so when people discover that I don't have any kids, they keep their thoughts to themselves. My family's happy with my choices, although I suspect my mother-in-law would have liked some grandchildren from her surviving son. She's just too classy to ever say anything though.

Being a teacher automatically cuts me some slack with people though. I can say that I have 30 kids during the school year. That seems to appease people.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I never really had any burning desire for kids, it just didn't exist for me. A slight yearning exists now- once in a while I feel somewhat sad or something about it.. it's hard to explain. I have always believed the job of motherhood is so critical, and I would want to be so good at it. Somehow I still had this "fantasy" that I would meet someone who I would be so in love with and I would think would make a great Dad that I would just want to have a child with him-that never happened and it's not going to. I still hoped I might be in a financial position one day to adopt if I wanted to, but that didn't happen either.

It is annoying and offensive when people ask you if you have kids or are married, and act and react as if something's really wrong with you because you don't and you're not. I know my mother is unhappy about it (it's unspoken but obvious all the same), I'm sure as the only daughter she had fantasies and all that. Well she had grandchildren from my brothers so that takes care of that.

I don't envy anyone their unhappy marriages. Obviously not all are unhappy, but so many are. Because of my parents' marriage I have always had a negative view of marriage. Let's just say at the very least I have no delusions about it. You can have kids without marriage of course-but a bad marriage or relationship is so destructive for kids, that's just my outlook because of my life experience.

I know someone who I feel basically got married because he was almost 40 and didn't have kids and wanted them-he was already divorced once and shouldn't have gotten married again, at least so soon. He married the wrong person for the wrong reason and is thus divorced again, with a young son that he sees occasionally. So he has that child now, but at what price? The price has been high for him and maybe for the child too-time will tell. I know that people are only human and life is messy and we all make choices that are just that and not necessarily right or wrong. But just for me personally, I make the choices that I want to make and it works for me- at least I know I am not responsible for anyone else's unhappiness.

 

[Golightly Grrl]

My reason for not having kids. I just don't want to have kids. I love being an auntie, but I don't have a maternal bone in my body. I like having a fairly unencumbered life and having the ability to be spontaneous. I know that sounds selfish, sorry.

But I'm not that much of a monster Having more time gives me a chance to focus my energy, time, and money on things I believe in. I love to write articles about people who are making a difference in the world and I hope to continue doing that for years to come. Maybe my writings are my children.

And on a more superficial note, spit up doesn't go with cashmere.

 

[isabella_bp]

I've never seriously thought about having kids until recently. Maybe its because I'm getting older and a lot of people around me are starting to have kids. I would like to think its because I'm at a place in my life to where I could actually handle having one.

 

[Carek1230]

Children are wonderful, they are gifts from Heaven. Even through all the ups and downs. You can see the world through their eyes, teach them things, learn FROM them. If I ever had it to do all over again I would definately have children!

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

But I'm not that much of a monster

You know what though, people do still feel that way. Like someone is some sort of a "monster" or an incomplete, unfit woman if she doesn't want kids. That attitude really does still exist.

But no guy is an incomplete male if he doesn't want kids

 

[indra]

But no guy is an incomplete male if he doesn't want kids

That's not entirely correct. I, and my siblings, wouldn't be here if that was true.

 

[melon]

What's left unspoken is that these "childless" articles generally have a racist undertone to them, and that's because these arguments generally originated from racist organizations.

The thing is, non-white populations are generally having plenty of children, so if we're afraid of the extinction of the human race, it's not likely going to happen. But that's what scared racist groups, and that's why they started this kick condemning childless (white) couples; it's because they feel increasingly threatened by brown people. And eventually, their arguments ending up filtering into the mainstream (probably via conservative talk radio, which is usually the direct conduit from racist organizations to the rest of the world).

Melon

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

The point I was trying to make is, how many guys-when you meet someone, when you're at a party or any other social function..how many times to you get as the first question, are you married or do you have kids? I have had strangers I meet on a casual basis ask me if I have kids.

Society in general is far more accepting of men who don't have kids/choose not to have kids. In fact, a guy who has many "conquests" and lives let's just say a happy single life without the commitment of kids and marriage, is applauded. That's my viewpoint and experience. But there's something wrong with you as a woman if you choose not to have kids or don't have them for whatever reason. Most people won't say it out loud, but they think it.

 

[yolland]

a guy who has many "conquests" and lives let's just say a happy single life without the commitment of kids and marriage, is applauded.

That's an awfully sweeping generalization...for one thing, I think it's more often "accepted" than "applauded," and that also it's far more accepted in middle-class WASP culture than in other circles. Certainly in the subcultural niche I grew up in, the prevailing idea was that you aren't a "real man" unless you're a husband and father, period, even though job success was also important (and nowadays, your stereotypical Jewish grandmother is more likely to be overheard advising her granddaughters, "Take your time...go to grad school, do an internship, and if you want to be a homemaker, at least do some volunteer or part-time work in whatever field you studied for, so that you've got a foot in the door for later when the kids are grown"). My black and Latino male friends generally report being raised with similar ideas. Plus, unmarried childless men do get sermons all the time from their married-with-children male friends on all the wonderful things they're missing, I'm-telling-ya-man-it-really-grows-you-up, etc. I also think--and I suspect this is kind of what indra was saying--that a lot of men do choose to marry and have kids out of little more (or really, not enough more) than a vague sense that they haven't really "arrived" as a man until they can claim to have produced and suported a family.

What is broadly speaking different is that childless men--again, especially WASPy ones--are less likely to feel like they owe some sort of apology for their choices. In that, I agree there is a difference. But it's a pretty vast oversimplification to say that the Playboy philosophy is the predominant male ideal.

 

[Irvine511]

ironically, my friends had the babies last night.

twin girls. both healthy and just over 4lbs.

 

[sulawesigirl4]

melon, I think you bring up an important point. Most of this fear and hand-wringing over low birth rates aren't because the world is in danger of under-population (hardly!) but because whites are reproducing in lower numbers than non-whites. Quite frankly, in a probably childish and perverse way, I look forward to having children with my black boyfriend if only to muddy up the gene pool even more.

Another thought I had when reading the original article was that any kind of "punishment" of childless people (economic or otherwise) is destined to just bring more meddling in people's private lives. How do you determine who is willfully childless and who is childless because of medical reasons. Is that the government's job to determine and control? Would a childless couple have to submit to medical testing in order to get out of the tax penalty? The whole idea is just ludicrous and actually really scary, imho.

 

[Muggsy]

The thing is, non-white populations are generally having plenty of children, so if we're afraid of the extinction of the human race, it's not likely going to happen. But that's what scared racist groups, and that's why they started this kick condemning childless (white) couples; it's because they feel increasingly threatened by brown people.

Melon

Now that I'm reading this I feel the urge to reproduce myself and make this world even more brown!

 

[yolland]

Many pregnant women 'unprepared'

BBC, Aug. 31, 2006

One in five pregnant women say they do not feel "emotionally ready" to have a baby, a survey has revealed. The poll of 1,100 women found many women were surprised at the physical and emotional demands of pregnancy. Half felt under pressure to be "perfect", and 44% said those around them felt the need to pass on "tips"...67% felt more exhausted than expected during pregnancy, and 58% felt more emotional. Over half said they felt more in need of reassurance than they expected, but 29% felt confused by all the conflicting advice they read. A third said they had received personal comments that upset them, such as being told about other people's pregnancy and birth "horror stories".

Just over a quarter (27%) said they were weighed down by relationship or financial pressures. And 10% of pregnant women felt pressure from friends who said they had "lost" them socially. The poll also found that 21% felt pressure from media coverage of celebrities who appeared to lose all their pregnancy weight straight away...One woman said: "People find it entirely acceptable to pass comment about my body shape whilst I am pregnant - the size of my hips, the weight I'm carrying, the size and position of my bump. They would never dream of being so direct and rude if I wasn't pregnant."

Experts said more services should be available to support pregnant women and to stop them feeling so isolated. Dr Linda Papadopolous...said: "[These] statistics...show just how little pregnant women are being supported through their pregnancy - and how this is detrimentally affecting them, both mentally and physically...It's evident that the mounting pressure on women to remain perfect throughout pregnancy and motherhood is huge. This problem needs to be addressed - women mustn't be left feeling so isolated."

 

[Devlin]

You know, society has expended an awful lot of effort trying to discourage teenage pregnancy by highlighting all the disadvantages of having children. Perhaps once these teens become adults, they still remember how "disadvantageous" it is to have children.

Melon

Melon! Two Words: Birth Video.

Not even for Larry Mullen would I have a child. Though I'd be soreley tempted if he were charming enough.

ON choosing not to have children:

I am rather like Adam on that score. Don't like 'em, don't want 'em, keep 'em away from me.

I mean, I have a vague, distant sort of affection for my nieces and nephews and various other children I know personally. But, to be honest, I barely know the names of my nieces and nephews, and I cannot for the life of me remember ages or which is which. Sad, isn't it?

The only kid I even know well is my now..17 (I think!) year old cousin, and I didn't even bother with him much until he was old enough to roughhouse with.

 

[A_Wanderer]

melon, I think you bring up an important point. Most of this fear and hand-wringing over low birth rates aren't because the world is in danger of under-population (hardly!) but because whites are reproducing in lower numbers than non-whites. Quite frankly, in a probably childish and perverse way, I look forward to having children with my black boyfriend if only to muddy up the gene pool even more.

Not entirely racism, in cases where there is common culture the shift in racial demographic is no barrier whatsoever but the issue is that there will be a dramatic cultural shift in western countries if you have Muslim minorities becoming large minorities over the next 50 years to majorities over the next century that do not have any interest to integrate, reading stories where a majority of British Muslims (or Muslims who live in Britain) want to see Sharia be introduced and for blasphemy to be made a crime is worrying, especially when it's not the immigrants rather the second and third generation who embrace stricter religious views as a means of identity.

If (and hopefully not) we see a growing influence on the political landscape by a devoutly religious minority then it will become more expedient to pander to them and ebb away certain freedoms for votes, if it ever came to a stage of having majority of believers who have no interests in changing for society then it would be fucked - I am a fan of freedom of religion, universal rights and a wide array of liberties - all of which get threatened by the religious. The world is better off Godless.

This argument is irrelevent to America except for the examples of seeing religious majority areas voting in for things that violate the constitution such as prophibition, those 10 commandments and creationism in schools.

 

[Sylvia127]

Melon! Two Words: Birth Video.

Not even for Larry Mullen would I have a child. Though I'd be soreley tempted if he were charming enough.

ON choosing not to have children:

I am rather like Adam on that score. Don't like 'em, don't want 'em, keep 'em away from me.

I mean, I have a vague, distant sort of affection for my nieces and nephews and various other children I know personally. But, to be honest, I barely know the names of my nieces and nephews, and I cannot for the life of me remember ages or which is which. Sad, isn't it?

The only kid I even know well is my now..17 (I think!) year old cousin, and I didn't even bother with him much until he was old enough to roughhouse with.

Birth Video

I saw that same video! Still makes me shudder.
I am not contributing to the over-population of the planet-but yeah-my cousins have had enough children to make up for me-I do know their names, some birthdays, not all. Enjoy them...but send them home kind of thing.

 

[Golightly Grrl]

I am rather like Adam on that score. Don't like 'em, don't want 'em, keep 'em away from me.

Reason 2538 for me to like Adam.

Remember when President Bush vetoed the stem cell bill and surrounded himself with "snowflake babies." Well, the only thing these kids had in common with snowflakes was they were all white.

Yes, I do read thinly-veiled racism or bigotry in these "people aren't having enough babies" articles. I'm glad I'm not the only one.

And apparently, according to this woman, people don't have kids because they don't want to grow up. Only by having children, are we truly mature. Barf.
http://www.aish.com/societyWork/society/I_Wont_Grow_Up.asp

The "Peter Pan Syndrome" gets pushed to frightening extremes.

I frequently meet bachelors in their mid-40's who are thinking that maybe it is time to get married and settle down ... maybe.

I frequently meet men and women in their late 20's who have run out of graduate school options -- how many degrees can you collect? -- who have traveled the world and who are thinking that maybe it's time to pursue a career and earn an income ... maybe.

And I frequently meet women in their late 30's who think that maybe it's time to have a child ... maybe.

They are suffering from what I call "The Peter Pan Syndrome" -- the idealization of perpetual childhood and the refusal to grow up.

In a society governed by no fixed rules, choosing "adulthood" is left to the whims and caprices of the individual. And many people put that choice off indefinitely. In fact, some people put it off forever. Sometimes they even disguise it as an intellectual theory. That's when it's really frightening.

CHEATING THE CHILDLESS?

I recently saw a book profiled in the New York Review of Books, "The Baby Boon: How Family-Friendly America Cheats the Childless" by Elinor Burkett, which takes up the "cause" of those who choose to be childless.

It's surprising that people would affirmatively elect not to experience life's most intense love and pleasure. It reminded me of the famous Newsweek cover at the height of yuppiedom: A young couple was shown fondling their wine collection. "These are our children" was the message they conveyed.

It's true the wine bottles don't talk back. They don't run hysterically up the stairs in a fit of adolescent pique. But they also don't smile, give to others, engage you in meaningful conversations, promote important values in the world.

"The Baby Boon" is not content to stop there. Ms. Burkett is outraged by child-based benefits available to parents that aren't available to non-parents. (Does anyone seriously think that society's interest in dogs, goldfish and clean apartments is comparable to its interest in the welfare of children?) But what she really wants is a completely childfree existence.

Ms. Burkett wants adult-only shopping, dining and swimming. She wants children banned from supermarkets at certain hours. Nothing should get between her and her Cheerios. (But I'm showing my pro-child bias; what cereal does the childfree adult prefer?)

The reviewer of the book, with no small amount of irony, points out that no less an "elevated" culture that the Germans have a word for those who do not like children -- "kinderfeindlichkeit." I think sad and lonely would be much simpler.

TRUE MEANING OF RESPONSIBILITY

Jewish law states that you can't be a judge if you don't have children. Only through our children do we learn real compassion. (Anyone who's spent a few hours in the emergency room with a sick child can testify to this!) Only through our children do we become full adults and learn the true meaning of responsibility. (I feel deeply for those couples who desperately want to have children but cannot.)

Children have so much to learn from adults of all ages. Adults, and particularly the elderly, find their lives enriched by the presence of children. Children inspire hope and optimism. They speak of the future. There is nothing like the enthusiasm of the young to ward off the depression of old age.

Of course, there are times when I'd like a little peace and quiet -- like between 2 a.m. and 3 a.m. -- and an occasional dinner without my children and time alone with my husband is also nice. But if I go to a restaurant where there are children, it doesn't destroy my evening.

When people ask us why we chose to have large family, my husband responds "Would you be satisfied with one Rembrandt if you could have two?" All our human desires to create, love and find meaning in our lives are best expressed through building the next generation.

Can the author be serious in suggesting that staying childless has given her a better life? Is there any building, business or project that will make a more significant impact on the world? Will her life be more meaningful because she can buy cornflakes with no children in sight?

PETER PAN SYNDROME

This is the Peter Pan syndrome taken to its most logical extreme.

Why this desire to never grow up?

I think it's because we mistakenly believe that there is greater pleasure available in a carefree life than in one of obligations. Club Med isn't about responsibilities. Retirement isn't about responsibilities. We are told to live for vacations, weekends, retirement and a good bottle of beer.

The idealism of childhood is further perpetuated by the advertising industry that plays on our nostalgia for a time when everything came easily. (Was it really like that?) There are businesses now to sell you every toy you remember from your youth. There are web sites that will find for you every candy bar you remember from your past. But is that really the taste you want now? And does it taste the same?

The Jewish perspective is that responsibilities are not a burden but a pleasure, that only through hard work do we experience true satisfaction. It's not the flavor of childhood we really want. It's the sweet taste of living up to obligations, of adhering to our commitments.

Yes, going to work can be a pain. But it's an accomplishment. And there is tremendous pleasure in that accomplishment. Marriage can be effortful -- more effortful than being single -- but the rewards are greater as well. Only through the effort do we achieve the intimacy and oneness that we all desire and cherish. Children are a huge responsibility -- you'll be much more tired physically and emotionally with them than without them -- but one smile eases a lot of pain, one beautiful soul is worth all the effort and more. (That was my mantra last week when seven of my beautiful souls had the stomach flu all at once in the middle of the night!)

With responsibility comes joy; not just joy in the achievement but joy in knowing you lived up to your responsibilities.

I didn't say it's not difficult. It is. But the rewards of accomplishment are a lot more fulfilling than the perks of independence.

Sure there are times that I wish I could come home to someone else placing dinner on the table with homemade cookies at my reach. And then I snap out of it, because I don't really want that.

I want to make my own choices. I want to be able to take pleasure in my successes and grow from my failures. And I want to taste the satisfaction of knowing that I exerted myself in trying to build a meaningful life.

Let's send Peter Pan back to NeverNeverLand.

Author Biography:
Emuna Braverman has a law degree from the University of Toronto and a Masters in Psychology from Pepperdine University. She lives with her husband and nine children in Los Angeles where they both work for Aish HaTorah. When she isn't writing for the internet or taking care of her family, Emuna teaches classes on Judaism, organizes gourmet kosher cooking groups and hosts many shabbos guests.

 

[BonosSaint]

Why would somebody's character and worth be judged based on willingness and ability to have children?

If someone is judged by the willingness to take on responsibility for something other than himself/herself, the ability to love unconditionally, the ability to create a personal community both dependent on and responsible for each other, taking care of those least able to take care of themselves, there are many ways of doing this, including raising children.

Is there a special joy in raising children? I don't know. I don't have any. But I know what it is to place somebody's happiness above my own. I know what it is to sacrifice and to compromise. I know what it feels like to nurse someone back to health and to worry about them. I know what it is to not walk away from commitment.

I won't say right now why I don't have any children. It doesn't matter. But in all the ways that count, I'm a grownup.

 

[Muggsy]

This lady is talking just from her own happy experience. Certainly she's not considering the increasing number of parents who mistreat their children, neglect them, abuse them, trow them to the streets to beg for money, expose them to disease and starvation, force them to work, abandon them... does A dad who rapes her daughter now better about compasion, just because he is her father?? is having babies that you can't feed a experience of love and intense pleasure???

 

[Devlin]

Heh. I'm not a grownup. I admit that. Having babies won't help and WILL damage the babies.

Of course, if she wants to pay for their emotional and physical harm, then fine.

 

[Liesje]

Another thought I had when reading the original article was that any kind of "punishment" of childless people (economic or otherwise) is destined to just bring more meddling in people's private lives. How do you determine who is willfully childless and who is childless because of medical reasons. Is that the government's job to determine and control? Would a childless couple have to submit to medical testing in order to get out of the tax penalty? The whole idea is just ludicrous and actually really scary, imho.

Reminds me of Ceaucescu's Romania *shudder*.....

 

[martha]

Reminds me of Ceaucescu's Romania *shudder*.....

That's what I've been thinking about as well.

And the Romanians shot that fucker at dawn one Christmas day.

 

[Liesje]

That's what I've been thinking about as well.

And the Romanians shot that fucker at dawn one Christmas day.

....and if I recall correctly, it included raffling off this task among 300 volunteers.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

If someone is judged by the willingness to take on responsibility for something other than himself/herself, the ability to love unconditionally, the ability to create a personal community both dependent on and responsible for each other, taking care of those least able to take care of themselves, there are many ways of doing this, including raising children.

So true. And it has nothing to do with a "playboy mentality"-the bottom line sort if is, what is the equivalent term for "old maid"-confirmed bachelor? Gee, somehow doesn't have the same demeaning ring to it.Some people actually do still use that term. If you're a woman who isn't married and is childless, well gee you must be some hideously unattractive "loser" or something. Or some selfish career driven person. Did you make that as your life choice or are you just not appealing to men? Granted it is much different than it used to be, but that attitude still exists. Are men who are older and single and have no kids considered to be that way because they're just not hot enough? Maybe in some cases, but as a general rule my experience says no. Of course men have the physical advantage of being able to father children at a much later age.

In my view the most selfish thing is to have kids and/or get married because society and/or your family expects it. Once you are involving another person and kids in that decision, it becomes very selfish to make a huge decision like that for that reason. Just my opinion.

If having kids is a sign of being a full fledged grown up, well that's odd because I know many people who are parents who are quite immature.