Bojack Horseman

[IWasBored]

archer's kind of worn itself out by now, but it's still funny enough. i've had way too many people tell me to watch steven universe that i should probably stop ignoring it already. but anyway, i came in here to say yeah, bojack horseman is pretty damn good.

 

[The Sad Punk]

LeMel your av.

Crazy good season, eps 4 and 11 deserve all the praise they've gotten. I just love how this show can balance complete absurdity with some of the realest shit out there - done to perfection in the final episode.

So many good visual gags and references in this show (Bojack's Franz Marc painting!), and really just the perfect mix of nostalgia, humour and existentialism for whatever generation this is.

 

[LemonMelon]

I want to be an architect.

Two weeks ago I played Downer Ending for a friend of mine. Got a text from him today saying that he binged the entire series and can't wait for season 4.

That episode is fucking awesome.

 

[cobl04]

Maybe they should have thrown in The Decemberists. "I am nothing of a builder, but here I dreamt I was an architect..."

 

[LemonMelon]

Quickly becoming my favorite line in the show's entire run. Words to live by.

 

[LemonMelon]

It's back.

And it's stupendous.

 

[DaveC]

i watched the first six episodes last night, it hasn't lost a step. the first episode and the todd episode were my favourite so far.

my girlfriend and i have lately been watching breaking bad (her first time through), her mind was adorably blown to pieces when she suddenly realized after 2.5 seasons of BB and 3 of BH that todd and jesse are voiced by the same guy.

 

[cobl04]

I started last night, and yes, a great start. I adored the Ski Race, such a funny way of parodying the real-world events. I hope Woodchuck stays in it, as he's voiced by Captain Holt from Brooklyn Nine-Nine, (which I cannot fucking wait to return).

The second ep was pretty tremendous, it's amazing how effectively they get you having feels, the fly that was helping him rebuild the house was so great, loved their interactions. It was fucking infuriating and really sad the way that Bojack just up and left, but that's Bojack, it was entirely consistent with his character.

Hearing the penultimate episode of this season is soul-destroying.

 

[DaveC]

[tweet]910896431933689857[/tweet]

 

[LemonMelon]

Such a good season and I can't wait for more.

 

[DaveC]

his cell phone provider is "hay-t&t" i love how much attention is paid to the tiny background details in this show.

 

[cobl04]

What did people think?? Let's get some more discussion going. Season had a much narrower focus/arc than previous ones, which I think hampered it a little, but it was still tremendous. Certainly a different feel to it after the devastating last few eps of season three. The penultimate ep had everyone flipping out, and rightly so... those black squiggly lines were very powerful. I think the fly / house fixing ep might still be my favourite of the season though.

Think it really needs a second watch-through.

 

[LemonMelon]

The Old Sugarman Place, Stupid Piece of Shit, Ruthie, Time's Arrow and What Time Is It Right Now were all masterful episodes, as good as anything this show has given us and that accounts for almost half the season. The rest was more humorous and manic than usual, somewhat scatterbrained sure, and not all of the subplots worked out masterfully (the dentist clown thing received too much screen time in Lovin That Cali Lifestyle), but it's always extremely funny and entertaining.

Stupid Piece of Shit fucking broke me. I teared up before the opening credits. That sort of hateful self-talk is the same kind that I regularly inflict on myself and it was painful to hear it spoken through a character I love. The ending was absolutely brutal.

On the other hand, the season also left me on an emotional high. I love Hollyhock and thought her character arc brought out the best in Bojack, offering him an opportunity for real growth, so the fact that their relationship wasn't royally fucked up was very refreshing.

I'm looking forward to seeing Princess Carolyn "produce her baby" (one of the show's best puns) next season. She deserves a win. But please bring Judah back. Thanks.

 

[cobl04]

Been ad hoc rewatching as my partner goes back through first three seasons. I'd forgotten how stunning the ending to season three is, Bojack putting the foot down then getting out and seeing the free horses run with Nina Simone's incredible cover of Stars playing, it's so fucking moving.

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

new season dropped today. i know what i'll be doing this afternoon.

 

[LemonMelon]

I'm so ready.

Trying to pace myself at 3 episodes a day so I can really absorb them and savor the season before it's gone for another year.

 

[LemonMelon]

I was a bit cold on this season at first, but it won me over by the end. It's perhaps the cleverest, most layered and complex season they've ever made. And it's damn funny too. Every episode is admirably written and animated and a couple of them are series classics (Free Churro, The Showstopper).

The problem for me comes down to the inconsistent pacing of the season, as well as a broad lack of gut-punch emotion. I liked Gina's character a lot, but I couldn't find the same level of connection with her that I had with Sara Lynn or Hollyhock. I hope they wrap the show up with a masterful season 6 so it ends on top and doesn't get stale. It hasn't yet, but it will eventually.

This post sounds a bit negative, but I could go in depth about any of these 12 episodes and explain what I loved about it. They've really worked every moment of this season to perfection with incredible direction, social commentary and improved animation. I'm just not really feeling how it functions as a whole the way I did with season 4.

 

[bono_212]

That's kinda how I feel about this season as well. If you were to ask me about the season as a whole, I think you'd come away feeling that I was very negative about the entire experience, but if you ask me about each episode individually, you'd definitely get the sense I really like each one, which I do. It's a bizarre season of a bizarre show and I felt like every episode was incredibly solid, but as a whole, something was missing. And I think part of that may be because almost every episode felt like a rehash of an episode they've done before, outside of maybe episode 09 and 10 and the finale.

But I came out of this season also

Spoiler

Really hating Diane. Like, are we supposed to be on her side, or is she just the most out-of-touch character of them all for missing just how much of a terrible person she is while trying to fix everyone else's lives? Cause she's terrible. Absolutely the worst. I've gotten over how awful she was to Bojack in season one over the years, but it allllll came back in these last few episodes. It also sucked that everyone who was trying to "help" Bojack was trying to do so for selfish reasons (Gina: Didn't want the show to get canceled; Diane: Didn't want to be associated with a fuckup; PC: Wanted her "baby" to thrive), and even when Diane gets him to go to rehab, it's like, and I bet she feels SOOOOOO self-satisfied about it too. Even if it's what Bojack needs. Ugh, anyways, /rant

 

[DaveC]

That's kinda how I feel about this season as well. If you were to ask me about the season as a whole, I think you'd come away feeling that I was very negative about the entire experience, but if you ask me about each episode individually, you'd definitely get the sense I really like each one, which I do. It's a bizarre season of a bizarre show and I felt like every episode was incredibly solid, but as a whole, something was missing. And I think part of that may be because almost every episode felt like a rehash of an episode they've done before, outside of maybe episode 09 and 10 and the finale.

But I came out of this season also

Spoiler

Really hating Diane. Like, are we supposed to be on her side, or is she just the most out-of-touch character of them all for missing just how much of a terrible person she is while trying to fix everyone else's lives? Cause she's terrible. Absolutely the worst. I've gotten over how awful she was to Bojack in season one over the years, but it allllll came back in these last few episodes. It also sucked that everyone who was trying to "help" Bojack was trying to do so for selfish reasons (Gina: Didn't want the show to get canceled; Diane: Didn't want to be associated with a fuckup; PC: Wanted her "baby" to thrive), and even when Diane gets him to go to rehab, it's like, and I bet she feels SOOOOOO self-satisfied about it too. Even if it's what Bojack needs. Ugh, anyways, /rant

i just finished this season last night - i loved it. it didn't quite have the emotional gut-punch that the ending of season 3 did, but not every season has to put the viewer through the ringer IMO. i liked that it felt a little different, personally. i'm going to re-watch it over the weekend (most likely) to catch a lot of the stuff i missed the first go, and i'll probably have firmer opinions about it after that. but i didn't feel at all like it was a step backwards like you guys seem to.

i also think they should only do another season, maybe two maximum - the last thing i want to see is bojack heading down archer's path. i think the show's writing team is clever enough to know when to stop, but tbh i'm not sure how they do that without killing off bojack, though.

Spoiler

i think diane's arc this season makes perfect sense for her character. she's totally the type of narcissist who thinks they can solve everyone else's problems while ignoring or poorly managing her own. she's always been selfish and impulsive (marrying someone like mr peanutbutter, taking off to cordovia despite the problems it caused with her marriage and with bojack) and despite outwardly trying to show otherwise she always makes every decision (often subconsciously) about what she wants or needs regardless of how it affects those around her, and then tries to insert herself into the cleaning up of the mess to help herself look and feel better.

i'm with you, diane was irritating and selfish and making questionable choices in this season, but in a season where her personal life is literally falling apart around her i think she was very much true to character in these episodes.

 

[LemonMelon]

There was nothing out of character for Diane or anyone else this season; the writers have an excellent grasp on the characters at this point and rarely slip up as far as their actions are concerned. Diane was a jackass this season, but I don't hate her character, because it becomes clear to her by the end that she's on the wrong path and needs to make some changes. Hopefully she does.

The thing with Diane, and just about anyone else on this show, is that we're not meant to "root" for them, which is hammered home several times by Diane herself. There are no good guys or bad guys, just guys who can enact positive change in the world if they look outside themselves. I think the only thing we should root for is that these characters pull away from their self-absorption and do the right thing for their friends. There were flashes of that this season from much of the cast, including Bojack.

For what it's worth, this season is growing on me as I reflect back on it. It's just so experimental and complex, and I love how insistent and aggressive the writers have become about using their collective voice to say something meaningful about addiction, Hollywood power dynamics, gender inequality and, yes, using your favorite broken television characters to fetishize your own weaknesses. It often felt like the writers were speaking directly to the audience. I don't think we're going to get another season like this one, so layered with Charlie Kaufman-esque meta-narrative, issue episodes and constant format-breaking. So I guess I should appreciate it while it's here; there are very few shows on television doing anything close to this.

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

But I came out of this season also

Spoiler

Really hating Diane. Like, are we supposed to be on her side, or is she just the most out-of-touch character of them all for missing just how much of a terrible person she is while trying to fix everyone else's lives? Cause she's terrible. Absolutely the worst. I've gotten over how awful she was to Bojack in season one over the years, but it allllll came back in these last few episodes. It also sucked that everyone who was trying to "help" Bojack was trying to do so for selfish reasons (Gina: Didn't want the show to get canceled; Diane: Didn't want to be associated with a fuckup; PC: Wanted her "baby" to thrive), and even when Diane gets him to go to rehab, it's like, and I bet she feels SOOOOOO self-satisfied about it too. Even if it's what Bojack needs. Ugh, anyways, /rant

Spoiler

i know what you mean. as others have said i think it fits with the narrative of how diane's been in previous seasons, but this season in particular she was basically impossible to root for. i think at the end of the season, she finally got how her overly idealistic and naive points-of-view did her and everyone she knew a disservice. if people know that no matter what they do they're going to be seen as bad in your eyes, you stop trying to make them think you're a good person. you know, like this person's gonna think i'm a fuckup no matter what, might as well just try to be a fuckup.

 

[cobl04]

Haven't read through the above posts yet as I want to be as free as possible in my take towards it. I'm about five episodes in and just loving it so far. Few observations so far...

- I've liked the focus on some other characters. Like seeing Diane and Mr Peanutbutter take different approaches to their impending divorce, and a glimpse into Princess Carolyn's upbringing and how her personality has been built out of necessity; she's had to go it alone for so long. And Todd has become comfortably the best character on the show for me. His story feels really genuine and done in a sensitive manner, and he's just a genuinely lovely person, so all the stuff he falls into is really cute and engaging. He is a beacon on a show without many.

- Elements that make the show extremely fun to watch completely independent of any of the context: identifying guest voices like Stephanie Beatriz, Whoopi Goldberg. And the piles upon piles upon piles of small jokes that are able to be made because it's a cartoon with anthropomorphic animals. Like when Diane is trying to catch a flight, the board behind her has the status of all the flights as per normal except for Istanbul, Turkey which says STUFFED. Or in on of the scenes at the restaurant a human family in the background is eating a pig's head for dinner and a pig is sitting on a nearby table giving them dirty looks.

- I appreciate the grounding narrative structure that this season has, centred around Philbert. The social commentary of it all, the added interesting characters in Flip and Gina, is really nice, I thoroughly enjoyed Bojack the Feminist.

 

[cobl04]

Not sure if it's been discussed above, but seeing a lot of over-the-top praise for the eulogy episode. Important for the story, and an impressive, admirable and well-done concept episode, but I'll never watch it again, it was hard to sit through once. Contrast that with other bottle episodes the show has done, like last season's astonishing underwater episode or the trapped underground episode. Or BB's Fly The final joke was fucking hilarious, though.

 

[LemonMelon]

That was the best episode of the season because it made me feel something. The biggest weakness of the season, for me, was a lack of emotional engagement relative to past seasons in favor of very impressive, ambitious plotting and direction. It was an intellectually stimulating and hilarious season, but it didn't hit me in the gut the way I'm used to. The second half of Free Churro hurt though, in the best way possible. Fucking fantastic voice acting from Arnett as well.

 

[cobl04]

Finished the season last night, we watched the last three episodes. Fucking astonishing stuff. The penultimate episode (as has been the case for most Bojack) was just something else. Not funny, not hopeful, not warm, it was probably the darkest the show has ever been. It kind of felt like a Breaking Bad moment for me... and it was interesting to hear my partner say she can't see how this show can end without Bojack dying. We all got to that point with Walt.

Read the other posts in this thread now and I can't really understand where any of you are coming from. Leaving aside the impressive production qualities, writing, animation and so on that LM mentions, how did this season not reach you emotionally?

I'm wondering if it's because you're all seeking a happy ending, that you're all after the redemption arc. Because I would argue this season was extremely emotional. It didn't give me the ~feels~ in the same way that previous episodes and seasons have (Sara Lynn's death, the desert scene with Nina Simone, 'but you gotta do it every day' are the three that immediately come to mind) but its emotion was different. It was a much harder edge. I am super impressed with the writers really committing to some tough, hard shit. It's not what we've been trained to expect from TV shows, and that's why I think this season was all the more impressive. We didn't get the neat bows, instead we got something that feels very close to real life, which for a fucking cartoon with anthropomorphic animals is insane. Real life isn't neat little bows. It's a beloved TV star who destroys everything around him with his toxicity and it might not end up well. There was a shift in the penultimate episode that I physically felt, one I don't think will be easy to turn around.

Also I'm a bit stunned to read the commentary above on Diane. How the fuck is Diane the bad guy? Why do are we having sympathy and hope for Bojack when he's objectively horrific but we're shitting on Diane because she's not faultless? This is exactly what happened with Skyler on BB. We fell so in love with Walt/Bojack that we found the flawed person trying to make the best of a bad situation (Diane/Skyler) to be the object of our ire. I can't fathom how anyone could have found her annoying; she went above and beyond for Bojack this season, despite the fact that he's treated her like absolute shit the entire time.

That also reminds me of the only storyline I've outright hated on this show - Diane's psychologist. Diane was getting her shit together, only to be betrayed by breathtakingly horrible act of unprofessionalism by her psychologist. That little storyline was utterly terrible, but, it being in the show, it adds to my sympathy and support for Diane.

All this aside, though, glad we can all agree that the show is still amazing. I agree with Dave, I'd like to see season 6 be the end of things. 7 at the latest. There are a hell of a lot of loose ends at the end of this season.

And my final thought is just a message of love to Todd, who lights up this show every time he is on screen. The sex robot becoming the CEO of the company was extraordinarily funny and well-done.

 

[LemonMelon]

The lack of emotion that I felt this season had nothing whatsoever with wanting a happy ending...I mean, I adored season 3 and that was even more hopeless than what we received this year.

I just didn't think the central arc was structured especially well. There were so many fits and starts along the way through the first 7-8 episodes, jumping through time, placing emphasis on various characters, experimenting with story structure, etc. that I found it difficult to get a grip on the primary Philbert arc. It felt somewhat rushed and I never felt the chemistry between Bojack and the actress, even though she was quite nice and funny. I loved the La La Land parody scene with her.

In the end, I got that the last two episodes were supposed to be emotional, but they never quite struck a chord the way they usually do. Part of it is the aforementioned and part of it has to do with my expectations. At this point, I understand the structure of a Bojack season and I knew what was coming, but I didn't feel ready for it.

Thing is, those are pretty much my only complaints with the season. They're firing on all cylinders comedically, the characters are still very much themselves, the animation has never been better and they keep finding ways to surprise with their direction and visual storytelling. It just wasn't as harmonious an ending as usual.

 

[cobl04]

But I don't think Bojack deserves a harmonious ending. He's a prick. It didn't strike the same chord with me, either, as I wrote above, but I think the writers deserve praise for that, not any (minor) disappointment. I think it's amazing that they've taken it in this direction rather than the harmonious direction we were all expecting.

 

[LemonMelon]

"Harmonious" as in "all the elements of the season wrapped up in a harmonious way." I really don't expect a happy ending out of this show anymore. [emoji38]

 

[cobl04]

Ahh I see. That I can agree with, it was quite hard to follow at times and there are SO many unanswered questions at this finale (whereas there's a few earlier finales which I felt could have conceivably been the end of the show), but it didn't really take away from the season too much for me.

The AV Club's recaps have been excellent this season and I highly recommend reading.

https://www.avclub.com/times-up-for-bojack-horsemans-fifth-season-and-the-tim-1829050546

 

[iron yuppie]

Not sure if it's been discussed above, but seeing a lot of over-the-top praise for the eulogy episode. Important for the story, and an impressive, admirable and well-done concept episode, but I'll never watch it again, it was hard to sit through once.

I just watched this episode and feel compelled to comment on it. I have watched the show from the beginning and wanted so bad to like it, but this episode in particular drove home what I had been sensing for a long time: the show desperately, desperately wants to say something profound about depression and mental health, but simply doesn't know what that thing is. And in all the hyperbolic reviews of this episode, critics are contorting themselves trying to present that fundamental aimlessness as profundity. The show wants to be revelatory in a Mad Men style, but it simply isn't. I wish I didn't feel that way, because the ambition is to be admired, but I can't escape it.