beli said:
Yes, please explain. Im am Athiest and I dont understand how someone can be an Athiest Jew ie believe in God and not believe in the existence of Gods at the same time
And, you lost me on the Greek Persian thing also.
Are you saying some Iranians call themselves Persians as that is the ethnic group to which they are from? Persian is not a religion though.
I would be happy to explain. Hello fellow atheist.
Basically, this whole argument boils down to the fact that there is some confusion about race, ethnicity and nationality. I don't mean on this thread specifically, but throughout the world. They are completely different things and entire university departments have been founded in an effort to define them properly. Which I'm going to attempt to do off the top of my head. I recommend that everyone check out the really interesting stuff that is going on in the world of "ethnic studies" instead.
First, ethnicity is not a race. Ethnicity means food, holidays, dialects, things that distinguish your group from another group that may or may not share your racial category. An ethnic group may or may not be linked to a particular religion as well. Basically, it's your cultural experience and affiliation. This is what I am referring to when I say my Greek and Persian friends identify with their ethnicity rather than their race, because it more faithfully describes their actual life experience. On a census, they would check the caucasian box for race, Persian or Greek for ethnicity, and Iranian/Greek or American for nationality depending on their citizenship status. These categories have nothing to do with religion, which requires an extra check box.
For example, my best friend (and rabid U2 fan by the way) is of Persian decent. Her family came from Iran. When asked "what she is", she says Persian, because she was born a US citizen and was never Iranian by nationality. (She could also say she is white, but this would just confuse most white Americans, who easily recognize her as being of Middle Eastern descent. So she chooses to say Persian.) Her affiliation with Persian culture does not reflect her nationality or religion in any way, because she is not Iranian or Muslim. When asked about her religious beliefs, she would answer differently than if she was asked about her ethnicity or race. My Greek friends are Greek Orthodox. Anyone of any nationality, race or creed can convert to the Greek Orthodox Church, so belonging to the church does not make you Greek in ethnicity or nationality. If my friends all of a sudden stopped affilliating with that church, they would still be Greek by ethnicity. The two things stand completely on their own.
So, by Jewish ethnicity I mean people who identify with the Jewish community/culture in which they were born and raised. Their friends and family are Jewish by descent or practice. How much they participate in the religion with which that community is affiliated is completely up to the individual. So a Jewish atheist would be someone who chooses to identify with their cultural heritage/community while not believing in God. My friend is one of these people, and there are plenty out there. Einstein was one, for example. And as a fellow atheist, I know exactly why they would identify themselves in this way. When you grow up religious but become atheist, you all of a sudden wonder how you are related to the community that raised you to be who you are. You either freak out, or learn to participate in the religious community in a polite and respectful way when it is called for. (i.e. I still open presents on Christmas, go to church when invited, and understand what Bono is singing about.) Becoming atheist is not easy, because a major identity crisis is involved. But I can still check the "white American" box, knowing that it pretty much means WASP (white anglo saxon protestant) and not have a major identity crisis about it. I really have no other way to describe my cultural experience, while someone raised Jewish may feel differently. They may wish to acknowledge their different cultural experience and they have every right to do so.
To answer arw9797's question, I did not pull all this out of nowhere. As an atheist, I've been aware of various atheist organizations for a long time. The reason why we do not hear of Christian or Muslim atheists is because Christianity and Islam are religions, not ethnic groups. This whole thing hinges on whether or not Jewish ethnicity exists. You apparently do not believe it exists, but many people do and they have a right to define themselves as they feel they should be defined.
When I said Morleigh was Jewish, I was under the impression that she belongs to that ethnic group. I have never heard any indication otherwise. I was going by biographical information and the fact that her last name is Steinberg. If she is not Jewish in ethnicity, I fully apologize for the assumption.
p.s. Do NOT google "atheist jews". All sorts of Nazi crap comes up. But here is a credible website reporting on the development of secular Jewish groups that may be of interest:
http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week609/feature.html