A question!
- Thread starter rougerum
- Start date
The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
ladywithspinninghead
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Who are we to judge what is good or bad art?!? Especially within such limited guidelines...
You're only at 89 posts? I see your name everywhere!!
You're only at 89 posts? I see your name everywhere!!
ladywithspinninghead
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
No, I guess I'm not seeing your point...I'm quite intoxicated...I'm not seeing any point, to be honest.
I'm not a poet so I can't even answer your question...
Are you having a good night, though? Can you tell me what your theory is without me having to give you a hypothetical answer?
I'm not a poet so I can't even answer your question...
Are you having a good night, though? Can you tell me what your theory is without me having to give you a hypothetical answer?
Loafer
The Fly
lady, right now you make me want to get drunk too!
and rougerum, how can this little rule of thumb categorize all good poets? I dont believe in shit like that. But please explain.
and rougerum, how can this little rule of thumb categorize all good poets? I dont believe in shit like that. But please explain.
Loafer
The Fly
all right. Ill do your little test.
Right now I have this idea for a poetry thing, but see, Ive just now gotten into writing poetry and I can say that I probably wouldnt put any of the stuff I have written into the book/idea/thing i have simply because I know I am getting better all the time and the attempts that Ive made so far do not seem to be TRUE poems, but more like efforts at writing poems, they are trying too hard. When I reach a comfortable point, where the poetry speaks to my heart and my mind and just seems to fit naturally on the page....that is when I would think about including the poetry in this idea I have, an idea that i eventually want to publish! So, i suppose the answer is yes, but that is only for me.
There of course, tons of exceptions and I dont believe anything can be categorized as good or bad based on one little equation or question or whatever.
Im sure there are tons of examples where someone's earlier, more raw and open type writings are much better than their later ones.
Right now I have this idea for a poetry thing, but see, Ive just now gotten into writing poetry and I can say that I probably wouldnt put any of the stuff I have written into the book/idea/thing i have simply because I know I am getting better all the time and the attempts that Ive made so far do not seem to be TRUE poems, but more like efforts at writing poems, they are trying too hard. When I reach a comfortable point, where the poetry speaks to my heart and my mind and just seems to fit naturally on the page....that is when I would think about including the poetry in this idea I have, an idea that i eventually want to publish! So, i suppose the answer is yes, but that is only for me.
There of course, tons of exceptions and I dont believe anything can be categorized as good or bad based on one little equation or question or whatever.
Im sure there are tons of examples where someone's earlier, more raw and open type writings are much better than their later ones.
ladywithspinninghead
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
Come on Rougerum, we're waiting!! (I'm bored...entertain me!!)
p.s.: Didn't Ted Hughes publish his earlier stuff? or was that his wife's (what was her name again?)? so I wonder where he falls into...(I kind of like his stuff)
p.s.: Didn't Ted Hughes publish his earlier stuff? or was that his wife's (what was her name again?)? so I wonder where he falls into...(I kind of like his stuff)
Loafer
The Fly
ah you're right!
its all very confusing!!!!!! I guess thats why i write poems, i gotta try to make sense of something goddamnit!
or maybe it just means that it doesnt matter...
[This message has been edited by Loafer (edited 11-19-2000).]
or maybe it just means that it doesnt matter...
[This message has been edited by Loafer (edited 11-19-2000).]
The Wanderer
Kid A
usually bad poets don't get their works published at all...
and some good poets don't care if they are published or not, (ie, Emily Dickinson)
some poets revise their stuff, while others puke on it, some have others puke on it after they show it...
it's actually a pointless question, and a pointless response
and some good poets don't care if they are published or not, (ie, Emily Dickinson)
some poets revise their stuff, while others puke on it, some have others puke on it after they show it...
it's actually a pointless question, and a pointless response
AllIWantIs
The Fly
It means you write from what's inside of you and share it with the world.
The one's who gain fame and fortune from it do so because thousands of others can relate with those thoughts/feelings.
If others didn't relate to a poets writings then that poet wouldn't become so popular.
But that doesn't mean the unpopular ones aren't poets, they just aren't understood as easily as others.
The one's who gain fame and fortune from it do so because thousands of others can relate with those thoughts/feelings.
If others didn't relate to a poets writings then that poet wouldn't become so popular.
But that doesn't mean the unpopular ones aren't poets, they just aren't understood as easily as others.
hermes
Acrobat
Poetry is a river of shite, written for self indulgence. That's why I love to write it. It's made to make one feel better whether through catharsis or popularity or whatever else.
I don't think I am sober enough to correctly answer your question, which seems to be a tradition in this post, I'll just say
I think I only like one or two pieces I've written that are over a week old. I hate almost all my work the minute I write it, yet aam oddly proud of it. But I write for myself and noone else. I only read a few poets, Like Bukowski and Nerophine, and I read them religiously. The rest I can read but can do without. Poetry like all art is made for the self, if other people hop on board that's just an after effect.
------------------
He coughed and shook his crumpled wings, closed his eyes and moved his lips, "It's time we should be going."
I don't think I am sober enough to correctly answer your question, which seems to be a tradition in this post, I'll just say
I think I only like one or two pieces I've written that are over a week old. I hate almost all my work the minute I write it, yet aam oddly proud of it. But I write for myself and noone else. I only read a few poets, Like Bukowski and Nerophine, and I read them religiously. The rest I can read but can do without. Poetry like all art is made for the self, if other people hop on board that's just an after effect.
------------------
He coughed and shook his crumpled wings, closed his eyes and moved his lips, "It's time we should be going."
ladywithspinninghead
Rock n' Roll Doggie Band-aid
LOL Hermes!! That was funny...
"a river of shite, written for self-indulgence"...I knew there was a reason I never got into poetry!! ha ha
p.s.: Hermes, I'm now sober btw...
p.s.s.: Rougerum, sorry I didn't understand what you were trying to say the first time...
"a river of shite, written for self-indulgence"...I knew there was a reason I never got into poetry!! ha ha
p.s.: Hermes, I'm now sober btw...
p.s.s.: Rougerum, sorry I didn't understand what you were trying to say the first time...
AllIWantIs
The Fly
I think I understand rougerum is saying good poets are the ones who quietly express their feelings on paper without any thought of gaining any exposure from their work.
I agree, being a good poet has nothing to do with popularity, but the black and white standard of what makes a poet good in the eyes of society is not what I agree with either.
Some people write poetry that impresses me while others don't appeal to my tastes.
This is a form of art that cannot be measured by a specific individual or group that claims to be an authority on art.
I agree, being a good poet has nothing to do with popularity, but the black and white standard of what makes a poet good in the eyes of society is not what I agree with either.
Some people write poetry that impresses me while others don't appeal to my tastes.
This is a form of art that cannot be measured by a specific individual or group that claims to be an authority on art.
Rougerum, if you had made a film, by yourself about whatever subject you chose (yourself, another's experience, a flock of birds in flight etc) would you keep it to yourself no matter how awful you think it is? Would you show it to one or two mates to guage their response? Would you submit it to a free forum like this so that you can get a response without the flack from those who know you? Enter it into a film festival hoping you get noticed? Or would you put that film away or burn it?
Another point IMHO is that artists have always been whores to their greater needs whether its the need for acceptance, spiritual or sexual relief, a masochistic need for a public trashing or simply the need to feed oneself (portraits in case of painters, mainstream cinema in case of directors). When writing for the self, therefore the poet is writing to satisfy a need, that need is dependent on the individual (though in analysis this often has to be seperated from that person's actual identity). Whether a poem is published or read to someone else or thrown away, has no importance because once written it means there was the need for its existance. Non published poetry may not "exist" yet even when discarded it had fulfilled a need, that need obviously, it has transpired was not for the poem to exist in the river of shite as hermes put it but rather to fulfil the poets needs whatever they may be.
ie put simply: who cares ?
?don?t try too hard to think... don?t think at all?
Another point IMHO is that artists have always been whores to their greater needs whether its the need for acceptance, spiritual or sexual relief, a masochistic need for a public trashing or simply the need to feed oneself (portraits in case of painters, mainstream cinema in case of directors). When writing for the self, therefore the poet is writing to satisfy a need, that need is dependent on the individual (though in analysis this often has to be seperated from that person's actual identity). Whether a poem is published or read to someone else or thrown away, has no importance because once written it means there was the need for its existance. Non published poetry may not "exist" yet even when discarded it had fulfilled a need, that need obviously, it has transpired was not for the poem to exist in the river of shite as hermes put it but rather to fulfil the poets needs whatever they may be.
ie put simply: who cares ?
?don?t try too hard to think... don?t think at all?
The Wanderer
Kid A
this is all very stupid...
this argument against poets publishing their work reeks of the same stench I smell when pseudo-critics start bashing artists for "selling out"
are you really serious? U2 and Radiohead must suck ass as rock bands because they don't release every single song they write... by this logic one can say every poet or artist of any kind that you are aware of is crap because of the simple fact that you KNOW they exist!!!
maybe I suck or whatever but I don't always write poetry for me, I write it from my perspective and my perception of the world... sometimes I dedicate it to someone or something that inspired me... so if I want that person to see it you're saying that's crap?
so if U2 wants people to hear and "like" their music then they're not writing their music for themselves???
this argument against poets publishing their work reeks of the same stench I smell when pseudo-critics start bashing artists for "selling out"
are you really serious? U2 and Radiohead must suck ass as rock bands because they don't release every single song they write... by this logic one can say every poet or artist of any kind that you are aware of is crap because of the simple fact that you KNOW they exist!!!
maybe I suck or whatever but I don't always write poetry for me, I write it from my perspective and my perception of the world... sometimes I dedicate it to someone or something that inspired me... so if I want that person to see it you're saying that's crap?
so if U2 wants people to hear and "like" their music then they're not writing their music for themselves???
I'm basically with you Wanderer on this. It's a cop out saying that published stuff is going to be inferior to that kept in the safe.
After rereading all my bs (it was intended as such BTW) your point about u2 releasing stuff illustrates my point about 'need'.
Some of the best stuff I've listened to in a while were some of the Salome outtakes. These weren't published or finished but can still hold their own reasonably well. They served a distinct purpose (the need): a draft for future creations. The quality of work (or how 'real' the poet and his work are) isn't dependent on whether it's kept for oneself or publication because it's all subjective.
eg. A poetry book is found after a person died. People read it. How well that poetry is appreciated is left up to them.
Put simply it's subjective!
Good night y'all.
But that's subjective too coz it's 1:45 am where I live.
After rereading all my bs (it was intended as such BTW) your point about u2 releasing stuff illustrates my point about 'need'.
Some of the best stuff I've listened to in a while were some of the Salome outtakes. These weren't published or finished but can still hold their own reasonably well. They served a distinct purpose (the need): a draft for future creations. The quality of work (or how 'real' the poet and his work are) isn't dependent on whether it's kept for oneself or publication because it's all subjective.
eg. A poetry book is found after a person died. People read it. How well that poetry is appreciated is left up to them.
Put simply it's subjective!
Good night y'all.
But that's subjective too coz it's 1:45 am where I live.
Frogbat, I think poetry is the only real thing made to for just yourself. Stories and film do not belong with poetry.
You guys are still missing the point, do you think poetry is meant to be that thing for yourself. A lot of people do this beleive it or not, They write poems for themsleves as a way of wenting emotion of some sort. Maybe the best poet ever does this. We don't know and maybe the greastest poet ever that does does not need the material sucess he could get. He needs only the self satisfaction. I am asking if you believe that this way is poetry and you can say NO, alright, do you get it now?
~rougerum
You guys are still missing the point, do you think poetry is meant to be that thing for yourself. A lot of people do this beleive it or not, They write poems for themsleves as a way of wenting emotion of some sort. Maybe the best poet ever does this. We don't know and maybe the greastest poet ever that does does not need the material sucess he could get. He needs only the self satisfaction. I am asking if you believe that this way is poetry and you can say NO, alright, do you get it now?
~rougerum
AllIWantIs
The Fly
By what standards?
Michael Griffiths
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Rougerum,
I totally disagree with your opinion that poetry is somehow a mysteriously different art form than music and film or stories. I think I wouldn't be jumping the gun by accusing you of being BLACK AND WHITE, here. What's your definition of peotry, Rougerum? Is it writing down words on a page, specifically to do with introspection? Is it an act that must be done with no one else in the room; for that matter, no other "thing" in your view? Of course not. Poetry is more than the act of introspection and writing in verse or open end or whatever other "type" of peotry. Poetry doesn't even have to be written down. A sudden glance from someone, a certain look in their eye, can be poetry in of in itself. A message in a film can be poetry. A precise musical chord that strikes your emotions in a certain way, can be poery. The combination of Bono's voice with Edge's guitar in the morning, can be poetry, as it lightly slides effortlessly down the spiral of Larry's drum kit and Adam's bass lines. This explination can be a piece of poetry -- but I guess now that I've shared it, it isn't true poetry, according to your definition. Learn to think outside of the box, Roug!
------------------
The Tempest
I totally disagree with your opinion that poetry is somehow a mysteriously different art form than music and film or stories. I think I wouldn't be jumping the gun by accusing you of being BLACK AND WHITE, here. What's your definition of peotry, Rougerum? Is it writing down words on a page, specifically to do with introspection? Is it an act that must be done with no one else in the room; for that matter, no other "thing" in your view? Of course not. Poetry is more than the act of introspection and writing in verse or open end or whatever other "type" of peotry. Poetry doesn't even have to be written down. A sudden glance from someone, a certain look in their eye, can be poetry in of in itself. A message in a film can be poetry. A precise musical chord that strikes your emotions in a certain way, can be poery. The combination of Bono's voice with Edge's guitar in the morning, can be poetry, as it lightly slides effortlessly down the spiral of Larry's drum kit and Adam's bass lines. This explination can be a piece of poetry -- but I guess now that I've shared it, it isn't true poetry, according to your definition. Learn to think outside of the box, Roug!
------------------
The Tempest
AllIWantIs
The Fly
By the way rougerum... what possesed you to attempt getting a straight yes or no answer from a group of poets?
From these posts alone, I see many poets!
From these posts alone, I see many poets!
AllIWantIs
The Fly
A true poet would not throw any of their work away because if they did, they'd be throwing away a piece of themselves.
What's my answer?
What's my answer?
zooropamanda
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
I don't know about a straight yes or no....
Im too into words for that hehe
I dont know what you will determine is good or bad from what I think, but Im going to tell you what writing does for me and why I do it.
Yes, I write for me.
I write to help me get out what I may hold within in other ways.
It gives me a window into a world that I would have kept shut.
A world that belongs deep inside and am too afraid to share with others.
That is why it comes out in this form, it stops me from going nuts!
However, I will admit although shy on the outside, I like to be an entertainer. Yes, I like the thought that someone may read something I have written and relate to it.
I go to a film, read a book, look at art, or read poetry, and from that I gain something. I have a reaction, a feeling towards whatever it is.
I think thats what many artists want their audiences to do.
So in my amateur ramblings, even if they are just here on a message board, the thought that someone read my thoughts and gained some sort of feeling from it makes me feel good about that.
But that really is an after thought.
As far as where it begins is writing for me.
I think you would find most writers write for themselves and any that dont first and foremost, in my opinion, don't really get what its all about.
Go ahead flame me for being so egotistical, I can take it.
Im too into words for that hehe
I dont know what you will determine is good or bad from what I think, but Im going to tell you what writing does for me and why I do it.
Yes, I write for me.
I write to help me get out what I may hold within in other ways.
It gives me a window into a world that I would have kept shut.
A world that belongs deep inside and am too afraid to share with others.
That is why it comes out in this form, it stops me from going nuts!
However, I will admit although shy on the outside, I like to be an entertainer. Yes, I like the thought that someone may read something I have written and relate to it.
I go to a film, read a book, look at art, or read poetry, and from that I gain something. I have a reaction, a feeling towards whatever it is.
I think thats what many artists want their audiences to do.
So in my amateur ramblings, even if they are just here on a message board, the thought that someone read my thoughts and gained some sort of feeling from it makes me feel good about that.
But that really is an after thought.
As far as where it begins is writing for me.
I think you would find most writers write for themselves and any that dont first and foremost, in my opinion, don't really get what its all about.
Go ahead flame me for being so egotistical, I can take it.
BabyGrace
Refugee
who cares about publishing...poetry is just to free the mind and anyway, I agree, ladywithspinninghead, we can't judge others' work really. in some art cases, tho, it might be true cause all these famous artists were really picky about what they showed to the public and look how good they were. and since poets are artists i guess maybe its true. i'm sorry, don't know how to ans your question, rougerum
------------------
You're taking steps that make you feel dizzy
Then you get to like the way it feels...
------------------
You're taking steps that make you feel dizzy
Then you get to like the way it feels...
You know what, I thought since you guys seemed to be all in poetry you would have knew that statement and what it meant, I even knew what the statement means.
It means do you look at poetry as being written mainly for the person that is writing it, should poets write for themselves. Or do you think poetry should be published and should lead to personal gain like fame and fortune. That is what the fucking statement means! Are the best poets the ones that write for only themselves and for no one else. Or are the best poets the ones that do publish their work and get the personal fame and fortune with it. It has to be one of those, anything leading into another category doesn't fit with the category it is meant to be in. Like if you say you write for yourslef but you also publish, that really isn't writing for yourself at all.
~rougerum
It means do you look at poetry as being written mainly for the person that is writing it, should poets write for themselves. Or do you think poetry should be published and should lead to personal gain like fame and fortune. That is what the fucking statement means! Are the best poets the ones that write for only themselves and for no one else. Or are the best poets the ones that do publish their work and get the personal fame and fortune with it. It has to be one of those, anything leading into another category doesn't fit with the category it is meant to be in. Like if you say you write for yourslef but you also publish, that really isn't writing for yourself at all.
~rougerum
hermes
Acrobat
to go back to the original question and to try to answer it in one word...
Yes
I believe it's true.
------------------
He coughed and shook his crumpled wings, closed his eyes and moved his lips, "It's time we should be going."
Yes
I believe it's true.
------------------
He coughed and shook his crumpled wings, closed his eyes and moved his lips, "It's time we should be going."
Michael Griffiths
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Rougerum,
You know, our discussion bring up an interesting point: Why is poetry a different art form than, say, film or music -- if it, indeed, is different? I personally don't think it can be classified as a seperate medium. To me, it is a part of everything: It's a running commentary on the everday occurances and reactions to those occurances. This commentary can be expressed through the written word on a page, or through the mediums of film and music or what have you. So, it seems anyway, that poetry isn't a seperate art form, but rather, an inherent ingredient in all forms of art. Thanks, Rougerum, for getting ME to think outside of "the box". I like these kinds of discussions!
------------------
The Tempest
You know, our discussion bring up an interesting point: Why is poetry a different art form than, say, film or music -- if it, indeed, is different? I personally don't think it can be classified as a seperate medium. To me, it is a part of everything: It's a running commentary on the everday occurances and reactions to those occurances. This commentary can be expressed through the written word on a page, or through the mediums of film and music or what have you. So, it seems anyway, that poetry isn't a seperate art form, but rather, an inherent ingredient in all forms of art. Thanks, Rougerum, for getting ME to think outside of "the box". I like these kinds of discussions!
------------------
The Tempest
Michael Griffiths
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Additionally, I don't think this commentary and reaction to the world and oneself, MUST be kept to oneself, in order for a person to be considered a bad or a good poet. Whether someone decides to publish a piece of poetry, doesn't mysteriously devalue that piece of writing, does it? Not in my books, anyway.
So my anwer to your question is that I don't believe that your suppositon to be necessarily true. So my answer is NO.
------------------
The Tempest
So my anwer to your question is that I don't believe that your suppositon to be necessarily true. So my answer is NO.
------------------
The Tempest
