a loving God and the Tsunami

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joyfulgirl said:
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So how then can a natural disaster such as the tsunami, and all the suffering it has caused, be viewed as anything but terrible? Well, first of all, since the soul is immortal, nobody really died. The ones who lived through the ordeal suffer, no doubt, but when viewed from the whole (and by whole, I mean the general bigger picture, the specifics of which none of us can know) you see it is God’s plan playing out once again in perfection. While it looks terrible to the mind, it is in fact unconditional love playing out once again because these souls have to burn this karma off and in their next incarnation, they will have much better circumstances and their journey continues on. In viewing from the whole I would have to say that we have all been through such terrible things, and more may await us, but one of the gifts is that the veil drops between each incarnation so that we don’t remember these things although occasionally we get glimpses in dreams, or in attitudes that we seemed to have been born with, etc.

We see the law of karma playing out in all of life—in science, in physics—where there is a cause there is an effect. I agree with Irvine that I don’t really understand how Christians make sense of these kinds of things, often one minute quoting popular Biblical verses such as we reap what we sow and an eye for an eye, while simultaneously denying the existance of karma (which by definition is reaping what you sow and an eye for an eye) and their unwillingness to apply these principles as God’s law even when the appearance of things suggests some kind of injustice to seemingly innocent people, or making separations between God and nature. This does not mean that I don’t feel pain when I look at the images on TV and hear the stories of what people are going through. It does not mean that I shrug and go, "Oh well, they had it comin' to them." This is a subject that one must approach with great sensitivity. But I do find comfort in knowing that it is temporary and that these people paid, and are paying, HUGE karmic debts, and we don’t even know the grace and mercy that was bestowed in doling out this karma, or the gifts they have earned in bravely facing their karmas. According to the teachings of karma and reincarnation, this world is where we come to learn lessons, pay debts, and return to God. It's ugly down here for the most part and these kinds of horrible things have existed since the beginning of time. I don't agree with people who say the world is getting worse; it's pretty much always been like this.

Obviously there is much, much more to karma than this. It is a vast, vast subject and one I have been reluctant to get into because I find that most people have already rejected it before they know anything about it and only want to talk about it so they can dismiss it loudly. It's almost like people get angry hearing that they are ultimately reponsible for their lives, which I present as an idea that does not negate the existence of God but which is part of God's plan, and for me there is great liberation and comfort in that idea.

Thanks for your post.
While I'm a Christian, I have no problem with the message of reincarnation, I go to a mainstream church but as of now really have been researching to the gnostic form of Christianity, most which welcome the idea. My inability to believe this and other things were the traditional "God's will" has lead to me to expand my interest.
One could also say that the suffering survivors are also paying off a karmic debt. Not that I would in any way suggest they shouldn't be helped, that's may be part of our debt.
 
joyfulgirl, you wrote the post I was wishing I could write. It was thoughtful, detailed, simple, and complete. Very well done.


joyfulgirl said:
I have been reluctant to get into because I find that most people have already rejected it before they know anything about it and only want to talk about it so they can dismiss it loudly.

This is why I hesitated to do it, and we'll see what happens here.
 
Well of course everything you do is significant to yourself and those around you...and leading a good life can make a difference in someone's life, make someone's life a little better, and that's important. I guess my point is that things like this happen and are out of our control and will always happen throughout the centuries...it's tragic, it's RANDOM, and that's why I don't believe it's the work of some sort of God...punishing people...

It sickens me when people suggest that it was somehow their doing, these poor people, often very religious, in fishing villages, that they somehow deserved this.

On a somewhat related note...if religious people truly believe in "Heaven" then why is death tragic at all? And it's nothing to do with "I'm glad that person is in a better place, I'll just miss them" because if people only cry for selfish reasons, why do they say "She was so young" or "He never got to live a full life"? Something I also wonder about...

(edit: this was in response to Dreadsox's post, btw)
 
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I'm sorry martha...I admit I didn't read your post or joyfulgirl's and I will...I don't mean to be closed-minded, but I'm sure you can imagine the idea seems so...cruel...at first mention that it's hard for your brain to even try to understand.

But I'll read joyfulgirl's post...

:sad: :huh:
 
martha said:
joyfulgirl, you wrote the post I was wishing I could write. It was thoughtful, detailed, simple, and complete. Very well done.

I agree joyfulgirl - your post was very well done. :up:

I believe something happens to our spirits when we die. I believe in God, I believe we could go to heaven - I also believe we could be reincarnated. I don't know enough about karma to make an educated opinion. I find it comforting to know somehow there is more, but not concerned at this time as to the exact details. Who really knows anyhow? :shrug:

I also believe that where you go all boils down to how full your heart is. All of us should live our lives taking care of each other.. carry each other.. one. (I started this sentence without the lyrics, but it clicked in so I'll leave it.)

It is comforting to know that all of the lives lost aren't really lost as their souls are immortal. Whether they are in heaven with God or being reborn again soon. It seems to me that all of us left behind feel the greatest pain.
 
Just interested, anyone here believe, like Alvin Plantinga, in 'natural evil' (that Nature herself has fallen from grace)?

joyfulgirl: that was enlightening. I have some questions. Assuming that most of the people in the affected areas of the tsunami suffered greatly, how does one explain the coincidence that everyone living in the area happened to have the same 'huge karmic debt' to pay?

foray
 
VertigoGal said:
Well of course everything you do is significant to yourself and those around you...and leading a good life can make a difference in someone's life, make someone's life a little better, and that's important. I guess my point is that things like this happen and are out of our control and will always happen throughout the centuries...it's tragic, it's RANDOM, and that's why I don't believe it's the work of some sort of God...punishing people...

It sickens me when people suggest that it was somehow their doing, these poor people, often very religious, in fishing villages, that they somehow deserved this.

On a somewhat related note...if religious people truly believe in "Heaven" then why is death tragic at all? And it's nothing to do with "I'm glad that person is in a better place, I'll just miss them" because if people only cry for selfish reasons, why do they say "She was so young" or "He never got to live a full life"? Something I also wonder about...

(edit: this was in response to Dreadsox's post, btw)

What part of my post...I am very confused, because I never said that the people somehow deserved it.

EDIT:

I am also confused, I am not worried about significance for myself. Someone made a comment about human beings being insignificant to God, and that was my response.
 
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martha said:


At the risk of needing a tissue for my ass, this is fence-sitting. So God exists, but you don't believe in Him?

Martha HATES the Humpty Dumpty complex.:wink:
 
Dreadsox...

Oh nevermind!:der:

I had posted something about how we were all pretty insignificant in the whole scheme of things, and thought your response about how we ARE significant in each other's lives was directed at ME...nevermind!

So the beginning of my post was in reply to yours, the rest was general, not directed at you at all...

Sorry for the confusion!
 
joyfulgirl, how can the death of 120,000 people, 40% of whom are children, be part of "perfection" or some sort of "unconditional love"?? I fail to see how a father or mother who watched their child slip from their grasp to be swallowed by the sea would find comfort in the idea that their little child is responsible for the "sins" of others. Or that they will be much happier in their next life. They will, I can only imagine, desperately want them back in this life...
 
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u2lassie said:
joyfulgirl, how can the death of 120,000 people, 40% of whom are children, be part of "perfection" or some sort of "unconditional love"?? I fail to see how a father or mother who watched their child slip from their grasp to be swallowed by the sea would find comfort in the idea that their little child is responsible for the "sins" of others. Or that they will be much happier in their next life. They will, I can only imagine, desperately want them back in this life...

I read your post joyfulgirl, but I'm still gonna have to agree with u2lassie. I understand your beliefs/logic, like I "understand" any religion, but I can't believe it to be true and I also can't understand how these parents should be comforted in knowing their babies paid off some "karmic debt.":huh:
 
I must admit that I have not had the time to read this thread and have no interest in "taking sides" in this discussion, but please allow me to say a few simple things (since last Sunday, I find too many words get in my way of trying to comprehend what our world has witnessed).

1) All our discussion here will not change anything regarding the tsunami. The people who are gone will not return and those left behind will have to try hard not to be traumatized the rest of their lives by their experience

2) I can not convince anyone here of the existence or nonexistence of God, nor will I try to do so. Suffice to say that the people of these countries are very traditional people and undoubtedly had a belief in some Higher Power.

In the midst of despair and uncertainty, Faith and Hope and Generosity is the only thing people have to hold on to. I will not diminish anyone's ability to hold on to Hope and to some higher purpose to all this destruction that we, as mere mortals, can't comprehend.

3) tsunamis are NATURAL disasters - they are not caused by humans or by God. Anyone who would use this natural catastrophe as an excuse not to get involved in helping these people recover is an unfortunate individual.

From what I have seen, though, there are very few of these individuals around. I would ignore them and concentrate on what you can do to be helpful to our world.

I hope these thoughts make sense and do not irritate anyone. I have no stomach for debate lately - I'm too focused on what I can do to be helpful to others.

God have mercy on the living - the departed are already in eternal peace. :angel:
 
foray said:


joyfulgirl: that was enlightening. I have some questions. Assuming that most of the people in the affected areas of the tsunami suffered greatly, how does one explain the coincidence that everyone living in the area happened to have the same 'huge karmic debt' to pay?

foray

The same as how millions of Americans have the same karma of being an American, the same as how an entire species can have the same karma of becoming extinct, I mean we're talking unimaginable cycles of time and numbers of souls. I guess this goes back to Angie's question about individual karma vs. collective karma. It's all happening at once and perfectly orchestrated. This, according to the law of karma and reincarnation.
 
u2lassie said:
joyfulgirl, how can the death of 120,000 people, 40% of whom are children, be part of "perfection" or some sort of "unconditional love"?? I fail to see how a father or mother who watched their child slip from their grasp to be swallowed by the sea would find comfort in the idea that their little child is responsible for the "sins" of others. Or that they will be much happier in their next life. They will, I can only imagine, desperately want them back in this life...

I never said these people should feel comforted by the idea of karma. I said that I am comforted by it, and even when I have experienced personal tragedies in my life I have felt comforted by my beliefs just as others are comforted by different beliefs. I believe that all of life in all of its ugliness, beauty, pain, sorrow and joys, are all a part of God's design and that it is all love regardless of what it looks like to us mere mortals because we cannot see the beauty of the bigger picture.
 
VertigoGal said:


I read your post joyfulgirl, but I'm still gonna have to agree with u2lassie. I understand your beliefs/logic, like I "understand" any religion, but I can't believe it to be true and I also can't understand how these parents should be comforted in knowing their babies paid off some "karmic debt.":huh:

You don't have to believe it and as I said above, I'm not saying these parents should be comforted by these beliefs. They should feel exactly what they're feeling--the shock, the excruciating pain, the I can't even imagine what, whatever it is, that's what they should be feeling.
 
martha said:




This is why I hesitated to do it, and we'll see what happens here.

Well, I figured what the heck. I expected to come back in here with people spitting at me but so far so good!
 
joyfulgirl said:


The same as how millions of Americans have the same karma of being an American, the same as how an entire species can have the same karma of becoming extinct, I mean we're talking unimaginable cycles of time and numbers of souls. I guess this goes back to Angie's question about individual karma vs. collective karma. It's all happening at once and perfectly orchestrated. This, according to the law of karma and reincarnation.

Perfectly orchestrated by whom, what? I guess that is a key question. Anyway, what you said about collective/individual karma reminds me of the biblical story of Lot. I suppose I will be thinking about this for years to come.

foray
 
foray said:


Perfectly orchestrated by whom, what? I guess that is a key question. Anyway, what you said about collective/individual karma reminds me of the biblical story of Lot. I suppose I will be thinking about this for years to come.

foray

Orchestrated by God, the Divine, the supreme being, whatever you want to call it. Thanks for reading and thinking about it. I'll have to reread the Lot story.
 
originally posted by joyfulgirl
When looking at a natural disaster through the lens of karma and reincarnation, the first thing one sees is that the ‘disaster’ is only a ‘disaster’ to the mind because the mind can only see a tiny little slice of an infinite pie. DaveC was right, in my opinion, that according to the law of karma people get what they have coming to them, and martha was also right, imo, in pointing out that that is an oversimplification. Both are true, because we’re not talking about these particular people—i.e., those affected by the tsunami—in their current incarnation as having done something horrible to deserve these horrible consequences. The law of karma and reincarnation views this over billions and trillions of lifetimes, where every thought, deed and action are recorded and carried on with a soul from lifetime to lifetime until the debts are paid. Only when they are paid does the cycle and death and rebirth end

So how then can a natural disaster such as the tsunami, and all the suffering it has caused, be viewed as anything but terrible? Well, first of all, since the soul is immortal, nobody really died. The ones who lived through the ordeal suffer, no doubt, but when viewed from the whole (and by whole, I mean the general bigger picture, the specifics of which none of us can know) you see it is God’s plan playing out once again in perfection. While it looks terrible to the mind, it is in fact unconditional love playing out once again because these souls have to burn this karma off and in their next incarnation, they will have much better circumstances and their journey continues on

We see the law of karma playing out in all of life—in science, in physics—where there is a cause there is an effect.

Thanks for your post. I read and reread it, but I still have a few questions:
By saying that everything we've done in this life and our previous lives, effects everything around us - as in what we give comes back to us - do you mean that bad karma caused the tsunami to happen?
Because you say that the law of karma is in all of life, science and physics included. Does that mean our bad deeds has some sort of magnetic force on the Earth?
I know that may sound silly, but I find it hard to understand that God would deliberately allow a natural disaster like this to happen so people could burn their karma off and move on to the next life. Why would He do it in such a manner and with such a high death toll? Why particularly a massive earthquake followed by a tsunami?
Also, since you say everything is effected by the law of karma, does that literally mean the whole earth, right down to its core? This is what I've heard about the law of karma - that everything in the universe is effected by it, nothing is left out and everything is connected
 
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nbcrusader said:


So, you reject the notion of god because no matter how you define god, your god does not does not meet your expectations (dare I say demands) of what god should be or how god should act?

The sad reality is that we don't need to travel far from our own homes to find hurt and suffereing.


i reject a God that would kill 150,000 people, 40% of whom are children, in order to somehow test us. if he does not meet my expectations, if he performs horrible act that go against whatever sene of morality i have, then yes: i will reject him, because it is the right thing to do. my faith cannot be blind, i cannot and will not surrender my rationality and sense of right and wrong simply because i was told to do so or because some make logically indefensible arguments about God knowing best/beyond our comprehension stuff.

one question still kicking around here, and as it relates to Dread, is whether or not God is behind natural disasters. there are two answers:

1. if God created the world, then he created a world where natural disasters were sewn into the fabric of the design itself, and those that suffer the flaws are His children. any court of law would find the designer of flammable pajamas or exploding coffee makers guilty for the people they maim with their faulty products, the same holds true of God. it appears as if we've got a Pinto of a world here.

2. the world was created by Nature, and Nature is definitionally amoral, and operates completely upon its own terms and we simply exist on top of that. there is no why, no test, no reasons, no explanations. it simply *is* -- and all we can do is deal.

finally, i only have to go to the end of my block to find some crackheads. they suffer, but not through flaws in the design of the earth but through societal flaws which are way, way too myriad to get into here. the inner city poor i live near have been failed by society on so many levels, and that i think we can all take some sort of responsibility for. the shifting of the earth's plates, however, is something entirely different.

Dread: you missed the point -- we are both insignificant and *incredibly* precious. its living with that confounding paradox that makes life so exquisitely painful in so many different ways. you're right, i am not insignificant to the kids i tutor online, but nor am i significant in the face of 1bn chinese people who will never know i exist. we are universes unto ourselves, none better nor worse than the other.
 
martha said:


At the risk of needing a tissue for my ass, this is fence-sitting. So God exists, but you don't believe in Him?


how is this fence sitting? this is nuance, this is being able to hold more than one thought in your head at the same time (the definition of an intelligent person, according to F. Scott Fitzgerald). Indra doesn't think there is a God, but knows he could be wrong. he's made a choice, but knows there are other valid options. sounds mature to me. :shrug:
 
joyfulgirl said:
I believe that all of life in all of its ugliness, beauty, pain, sorrow and joys, are all a part of God's design and that it is all love regardless of what it looks like to us mere mortals because we cannot see the beauty of the bigger picture.


that's a beautiful sentence, and one i really, really want to believe. but the randomness and ferociousness and sheer scale of this tragedy has really, really shaken me, and what used to seem beautiful -- like that sentence -- now seems little more than one of the million little lies we tell ourselves each and every day in order to simply get through.

okay, time to head to bed -- back to the grind tomorrow (and more images of dead babies).
 
Desperately trying not to sound flippant here...

Exactly how much innocent suffering is incompatible with the concept of God?
 
I'm going to take the liberty of answering these questions. I am only speaking for myself here, not joyfulgirl. Althjough we do agree on most things like this.

My answers may be hard top wrap your head around, particularly if you're a Christian. They have a hell of a time with this.

Pearl said:
- do you mean that bad karma caused the tsunami to happen?
No. I believe that God works though natural law much of the time.


Pearl said:
I know that may sound silly, but I find it hard to understand that God would deliberately allow a natural disaster like this to happen so people could burn their karma off and move on to the next life. Why would He do it in such a manner and with such a high death toll? Why particularly a massive earthquake followed by a tsunami? [/B]

It's a very complicated concept, one more suitable to face-to-face discussion, but for whatever reason, the poor souls who went through this had things to learn and/or karma to live through. There is such a thing as group karma as well, but I'm still not clear enough on that concept to even attempt to explain it here.

Pearl said:
Also, since you say everything is effected by the law of karma, does that literally mean the whole earth, right down to its core? This is what I've heard about the law of karma - that everything in the universe is effected by it, nothing is left out and everything is connected [/B]

Well, in my religion, technically, yes. If I explained here, heads would explode.
 
Irvine511 said:

how is this fence sitting? this is nuance, this is being able to hold more than one thought in your head at the same time (the definition of an intelligent person, according to F. Scott Fitzgerald). Indra doesn't think there is a God, but knows he could be wrong. he's made a choice, but knows there are other valid options. sounds mature to me. :shrug:

I guess I'm too stupid to understand this, but how can you not believe in something, but not deny its existence either?


I personally don't believe in a god, but I don't deny the possibility there is one (or more).
 
Irvine511 said:
if he does not meet my expectations, if he performs horrible act that go against whatever sene of morality i have, then yes: i will reject him, because it is the right thing to do.

My goodness. You will reject God because He doesn't meet your expectations.

Do you reject humans who don't meet your expectations, too? Are you in fact too perfect to ever have anyone teach you something? Are you so serenely moral that you are indeed beyond learning? What if your online students don't meet your expectations? Do you reject them?


I won't argue this with you, because you've decided that God is below you; that you are the arbiter of morality in the universe. You must understand all of it, or at least have it explained to you so you can approve of all that happens.
 
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