LuckyNumber7
Blue Crack Addict
Clearly there's no point in continuing here if you're adamant about talking about whether their attendance was considered good/bad.
But they can not sell tickets, that's the whole point. Your premise is that they sell tickets when they win. They don't sell tickets when they win. They won and still came up 26th in the Majors in attendance the year after that.Headache said he doesn't understand why they continue to put teams in transplant cities like Miami. I made the case that they are still conducive as a business to the league. Can they sell tickets? When they win, yeah, they can sell enough to operate and draw an income. There's no reason that small market teams should not be there if they are successful financially. That was my point.
But they can not sell tickets, that's the whole point. Your premise is that they sell tickets when they win. They don't sell tickets when they win. They won and still came up 26th in the Majors in attendance the year after that.
Your other premise is that they're a small market team. They're not a small market team. The Miami area has 5.5 million people. It's the 7th largest metropolitan area in the United States.
The Marlins only balance the books by not spending much money. It has nothing to do with selling themselves successfully, because they don't.
1. I do believe the Marlins are one of the franchises that cheats on capacity percentage by closing off sections of the stadium anyway, but capacity percentage is a reasonable statistic to look at, too.Just because they're not selling 40,000 tickets doesn't mean they're not selling tickets. If they're selling 22,000 tickets, they're selling plenty of tickets versus their payroll. You seem to think that league rank in attendance is the all-teller. Next you're going to tell me... capacity% is important?
And again, we're not arguing what is good attendance and what is not. It doesn't matter what you think is good or bad. Stop saying they 'aren't selling tickets' after winning if their is a near 40% increase in ticket sales. That's a completely illogical argument.
A small market team isn't determined by population of a metropolitan area. It's determined by their media market, of which Miami is 17, not 7. Furthermore, a small market is determined by the demand for the product. In the greater Miami area, there's not a huge demand for baseball. The baseball market is a small market.
Miami is in no way a small market. Neither is the d.c. area.
Every team in florida, with the possible exception of the dolphins, has had major attendance and financial issues. Every baseball team in washington dc has left eventually. The basketball and hockey teams also struggle. The only team that sustains financial success are the redskins. The nfl, they do okay for themselves... And even they can't save the jacksonville jaguars.
Even the teams in arizona have had spotty success for similar reasons.
I, like many baseball fans, have a serious problem with a franchise that balances the books by having firesales multiple times in less than twenty years.
As for your other arguments:
1. I do believe the Marlins are one of the franchises that cheats on capacity percentage by closing off sections of the stadium anyway, but capacity percentage is a reasonable statistic to look at, too.
2. League rank in attendance matters on a large scale. The difference between 23rd and 26th may not be big, but the difference between the top ten and the bottom ten is stark.
3. 22,000 is terrible attendance for a winning baseball team, period.
4. Saying the market for baseball is small is the whole point. There's a difference between a small market (Miami is not - there's a ton of people there who can drive to watch a game at any time) and a place that isn't willing to support a franchise (the evidence indicates this is true).
5. A 40% increase isn't that impressive, especially when their attendance was so awful beforehand. I mean, they won the fucking World Series and, basically, no one cared.
Of course they're financially operable, they've had seasons where they spend less than $30 million. But this discussion shouldn't be simply about whether or not they break even.
I don't understand why sport leagues continue to put teams in transplant cities... Usually doesn't work out too well
And @ Headache... it's a business. Can they sell seats/generate income?
That's not the perspective I'm looking at it from. I'm looking at it from the prospective of a winning team. If you're getting 22,000 for winning baseball, it's pathetic. There's no other way of putting it. The fanbase in Miami sucks.22,000 is terrible attendance, because you're looking at it from your perspective. Philly, who celebrates sellouts all season and is used to 40,000 + attendance. Because it's a huge baseball market with tons of interest. But what the hell? For about the 10th time, we're not arguing attendance here. You seem to just want to go back to that every time. They (The Florida Marlins) have only struggled at the lows in their franchise. They do not struggle.
So now they are a small market team? So... reverse back to the original point. Why do they keep putting teams in such situations? Implying that they cannot succeed here... when... they in fact are just a small market team succeeding like a small market team would. 22,000 is acceptable attendance for a small market team.
If I were to go back and highlight all of the times I've said this to you... I'm not debating what good attendance is and what bad attendance is.
Your 2nd point simply isnt true. They kicked up their attendance after winning the WS. By 6,000 fans. Just because they arent sitting up next to the Mets, Phillies, Red Sox, etc., or even around half way through the league, doesn't mean nobody cares. 22,000 for the Marlins, in a small baseball market, is the equivalent to getting upwards towards 40,000 for one of the large market teams.
Miami is not considered to be a small market. They are a medium sized market. The neilson numbers, which place them at 16th, are a little misleading, as they should contain the west palm beach market as well, but it does not. Combine these two markets, plus the high population? Yea... no way they are a small market. That's simply not true.
If you're trying to make that a case with West Palm Beach... do people commute from the Hamptons to Yankee Stadium regularly? I'd estimate they're just as close respectively.
If you're trying to make that a case with West Palm Beach... do people commute from the Hamptons to Yankee Stadium regularly? I'd estimate they're just as close respectively.
But let me make this clear... they're a medium sized market now... but no comment on PhilsFan claiming they're the 7th largest in the nation? I understand Miami is not a small media market... I might not be speaking in professional terms here but just as the Panthers are in a small hockey market in South Florida, the Marlins are in a small baseball market.
all of long island, including the hamptons, is part of the new york market, as is northern new jersey, westchester and southeast connecticut.
next?
population wise they are the 7th largest market in the states... as i said, media markets and census numbers don't always add up, cause they use different criteria. this skews some numbers. san francisco/oakland/san jose are considered one market.
people in pro sports leagues and in marketing look at more than just the straight neilson numbers. miami is a mid-sized market, probably closer to a large market than they are a small market.
you keep bringing up that they have a small demand for baseball and hockey. that has nothing to do with market size. that has to do with being a bad market. it's a bad market because of so many transplants.
the leagues over-estimated the market based upon the population and media size. there's a reason why there were no teams in florida for so long. florida is a bad market.
great area... would love to maybe retire there one day... terrible market for professional sports teams. again... 'cause of so many transplants.
Sorry. Present company excluded, Rays and Marlins fans stink it up. Bigtime.
Bad market, small demand, like PhilsFan said calling it a small baseball market is a nice way of saying it's a bad market. I never said it was a good market. But I did say it certainly works. I've been with you this entire time, I know that they have issues drawing fans because they are, in respects to sports, a transplant area.
Again though, it's not necessarily bad because it's worse than everywhere else. It still works just fine. It was not a bad option to expand to Florida... unless you really think the league is better off with less teams despite an equal value or lesser value?
next? You're acting as though the Marlins can draw attendance from West Palm. The only realistic area for attendance is southern Ft. Lauderdale and Northern Miami.
My guess is that once they're in the city in a year they will be able to develop a better STH base.