Zack, prisoner at "ex-gay" camp, to come home this weekend

[melon]

But that's my point. You can't guarantee anything about Ben, because you don't know his story. How do you know he didn't enroll himself; Is there something in there that I missed?

Call it a hunch. Human nature is way too predictable.

The fact is that even you don't know who he is or who is parents are, so you are conjecturing as much as I.

Melon

 

[Irvine511]

As for the "work" comment, you are now attempting to redefine what you originally said. You originally said:

"poor girl that marries Ben -- must make you feel really good to know that your husband has to try really hard to find you sexually attractive."

The way that statement is worded makes it seem as if it applies to meeting a girl and having to work at finding her attractive. It doesn't seem to mean that the work was the camp itself.

you don't think that the "work" done at the camp was "working" at finding girls attractive "enough"?

the camp is supposed to give him skills (shame, prayer) that will help him from lapsing into his authentic self. one must work to learn skills just as one must work to utilize skills when they are needed.

and every time Ben's wife wants to have sex, he's going to have to use those skills.

poor ben. poor future mrs. ben.

one of the great joys of sexuality, for me and i assume many others, is it's unpredictability and spontenaity. when attraction isn't immediate and must be indoctrinated, this kills most of the joy.

and i don't mean orgasm joy. i mean the joy of being fully human.

 

[pax]

I can't believe we're actually arguing over whether or not it's okay to send a CHILD to a camp that tells him or her that there's something intrinsically wrong with him or her, something that ALL good science and psychology out there today says is impossible to change.

There's faith in what the will of God and the human spirit can accomplish...and then there's crap like this.

 

[Irvine511]

I can't believe we're actually arguing over whether or not it's okay to send a CHILD to a camp that tells him or her that there's something intrinsically wrong with him or her, something that ALL good science and psychology out there today says is impossible to change.

There's faith in what the will of God and the human spirit can accomplish...and then there's crap like this.

yes.

which is why i am suspicious to the point of disdainful when people point to the bible to justify such behavior towards their children.

i can't believe it's worse to be gay than it is to tell your child that, in the deepest and rawest and most primal of places (how we are wired to love), that they're somehow sick, and can be cured.

 

[anitram]

But that's my point. You can't guarantee anything about Ben, because you don't know his story. How do you know he didn't enroll himself; Is there something in there that I missed?

He didn't.

The story was on Paula Zahn last night. His parents said they had "had enough" of this gay nonsense, packed him up in an RV and took him up there. He had no desire to go himself.

 

[80sU2isBest]

Call it a hunch. Human nature is way too predictable.

The fact is that even you don't know who he is or who is parents are, so you are conjecturing as much as I.

Melon

I'm not conjecturing anything. I didn't guarantee that he signed himself in. I just asked you how you could be sure he didn't. Also, I'm not saying how he feels about anything, except what he has himself indicated by his own words.

 

[80sU2isBest]

you don't think that the "work" done at the camp was "working" at finding girls attractive "enough"?

But that's not what you said. You specifically referred to his future wife.

 

[80sU2isBest]

He didn't.

The story was on Paula Zahn last night. His parents said they had "had enough" of this gay nonsense, packed him up in an RV and took him up there. He had no desire to go himself.

Ben or Zack?

If it's Ben, and you saw it, then you can say that he didn't want5 to go, because he said so himself.

But my point before I knew that was that people who don't know him couldn't base any assumption on anything other than what he said.

 

[MCF74]

Kudos to the great discussion going on here! For what it's worth, I'm gay and live with another man in a happy, committed relationship that looks to last forever. Oh, and I'm a Christian, too. Seems like a lot of people don't know how to be "real" Christians and the leaders of camps like this, as well as Zack's parents, are a great example of this.

I saw someone's signature line "Don't let the bastards grind you down". Indeed. Interesting that I was just listening to that song on my iPod. Take care everyone!

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I can't believe we're actually arguing over whether or not it's okay to send a CHILD to a camp that tells him or her that there's something intrinsically wrong with him or her, something that ALL good science and psychology out there today says is impossible to change.

There's faith in what the will of God and the human spirit can accomplish...and then there's crap like this.

i can't believe it's worse to be gay than it is to tell your child that, in the deepest and rawest and most primal of places (how we are wired to love), that they're somehow sick, and can be cured.

to both of you-110% in agreement.

Angela

 

[Irvine511]

But that's not what you said. You specifically referred to his future wife.

what makes you think he's going to have to "work" any less at finding his future wife attractive? she will be a girl, won't she?

honestly 80s, you get bogged down into such details that you totally lose sight of the discussion.

 

[Irvine511]

Kudos to the great discussion going on here! For what it's worth, I'm gay and live with another man in a happy, committed relationship that looks to last forever. Oh, and I'm a Christian, too. Seems like a lot of people don't know how to be "real" Christians and the leaders of camps like this, as well as Zack's parents, are a great example of this.

I saw someone's signature line "Don't let the bastards grind you down". Indeed. Interesting that I was just listening to that song on my iPod. Take care everyone!

and you, sir, are what we need more of: role models.

good luck to you and your partner, and thank you for sharing.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

and you, sir, are what we need more of: role models.

good luck to you and your partner, and thank you for sharing.

And I'll ditto this as well. Glad you've found that special someone, MCF74 .

Angela

 

[80sU2isBest]

honestly 80s, you get bogged down into such details that you totally lose sight of the discussion.

How did I lose sight of the discussion? You made some assumptions about Ben that weren't based on anything he actually said and I pointed it out.

 

[Irvine511]

How did I lose sight of the discussion? You made some assumptions about Ben that weren't based on anything he actually said and I pointed it out.

i made assumptions on Ben based on what he said, what i saw, and what my experience has been. everything that Ben has said, many, many gay men have heard before, and possibly said themselves. and i'm also well aware that i'm reading into this, making an analysis, and possibly even making an assumption or two. such is the nature of discourse and conversation.

you're being argumentative on the basis of word choice -- do you have a point? or are you just going to continue to nit-pick things that are probably attributable to the casual nature of this forum?

 

[80sU2isBest]

i made assumptions on Ben based on what he said, what i saw, and what my experience has been. everything that Ben has said, many, many gay men have heard before, and possibly said themselves. and i'm also well aware that i'm reading into this, making an analysis, and possibly even making an assumption or two. such is the nature of discourse and conversation.

you're being argumentative on the basis of word choice -- do you have a point? or are you just going to continue to nit-pick things that are probably attributable to the casual nature of this forum?

It's not nit-picking, Irvine. You said "Poor Ben", as if you know that he's not happy, despite his very own words. For me to point out that those assumptions are not based on known facts is not nit-picking.

You say you base these assumptions based partly on your own experience. But it's not really the same experience, unless you have been to one of these camps.

You stafted out with the assumption that these camps never work, and because of that assumption, you made another assumption - that "poor Ben" is fooling himself, or not saying how he truly feels. The whole foundation for your "poor Ben" remarks is shaky, at best.

 

[Irvine511]

It's not nit-picking, Irvine. You said "Poor Ben", as if you know that he's not happy, despite his very own words. For me to point out that those assumptions are not based on known facts is not nit-picking.

You say you base these assumptions based partly on your own experience. But it's not really the same experience, unless you have been to one of these camps.

You stafted out with the assumption that these camps never work, and because of that assumption, you made another assumption - that "poor Ben" is fooling himself, or not saying how he truly feels. The whole foundation for your "poor Ben" remarks is shaky, at best.

so much work over two words: poor Ben.

i stand by them. it can't be easy to be a gay 18 year old and have your parents put you in a camp and, after 8 months of work, to be able to say that you like girls "enough" to consider being in a relationship.

i feel like i can say with some authority -- though, you're right, i have not met him, but my goodness 80s, can't we have a discussion without you getting your panties in a bunch over the most minor of points? -- that gay people are unimaginably happier (as anyone would be) living life honestly and out of the closet and the best thing for his parents to do would be to love and support him and NOT tell him that there was something wrong with him?

am i really out of line for thinking that Ben deserves my sympathy? am i really wrong to think that Ben's desire not to be gay comes from parents and churches telling him he's diseased and must be cured? am i really wrong to think that Ben is a worthwhile person who deserves to be loved for who he is and not shamed for what he isn't?

Ben is *precisely* the type of kid i want to help out through volunteer counseling.

i'd want Ben to know that he doesn't have to be ashamed of himself, that God loves him, and deep down his parents love his big gay heart and soul more than he could possibly imagine, supid "ex-gay" camps aside.

 

[80sU2isBest]

so much work over two words: poor Ben.

It's not those two words, Irvine, and I think you know that. It's the attitude behind those words: that "poor Ben" can't possibly know how he feels about it, because you know how life for a gay person really is, and you also know that these camps can't possibly work.

Let's turn it around, shall we?

If I were making assumptions about Zach, if I said that he only THOUGHT that the camp didn't work, despite his claims to the contrary, what would be your reaction to that?

 

[Irvine511]

It's not those two words, Irvine, and I think you know that. It's the attitude behind those words: that "poor Ben" can't possibly know how he feels about it, because you know how life for a gay person really is, and you also know that these camps can't possibly work.

Let's turn it around, shall we?

If I were making assumptions about Zach, if I said that he only THOUGHT that the camp didn't work, despite his claims to the contrary, what would be your reaction to that?

no. i am not patronizing Ben. i feel sympathy for Ben. because i've been 18 and gay too. and, no, after 8 months of brainwashing camp i don't think Ben is necessarily the best judge of how he feels. in a few years, i think he'll have it sorted out.

you're also confusing Ben and Zach.

get the sorted, and then ask me a question.

 

[80sU2isBest]

no. i am not patronizing Ben. i feel sympathy for Ben. because i've been 18 and gay too. and, no, after 8 months of brainwashing camp i don't think Ben is necessarily the best judge of how he feels. in a few years, i think he'll have it sorted out.

So you are saying he probably doesn't know his true feelings on it, but you do.

you're also confusing Ben and Zach.

get the sorted, and then ask me a question.

I'm not getting the two campers confused. I had thought I read somewhere that Zach had been released from the camp and said that it didn't work.

But since that's not the case, and we don't know his reactions "post-camp" yet, I'll rephrase my question, to be about Ben:

What if Ben had said "It didn't work, I'm still having the same homosexual feelings as strongly as I ever did, and I know that I will never change", but I said that he only THOUGHT that the camp didn't work, and that he was actually now as straight as any other straight man, what would be your reaction to that? If I were making those assumptions, can you honestly tell me you wouldn't have debated with me on it?

 

[VertigoGal]

I can't believe this discussion is even going on. I was telling my dad about these camps and the first thing he said was, "what's the suicide rate?" It's so sick, teaching kids to suppress their natural feelings and emotions, using fear of eternal punishment to scare kids into "becoming straight." it hurts the kids and it hurts the women they'll get into a relationship with later on, one that's doomed to fail.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

and it hurts the women they'll get into a relationship with later on, one that's doomed to fail.

And yet the people who try and do this whole changing thing claim to support the sanctity of marriage. ...uh-huh, right.

Angela

 

[MCF74]

And yet the people who try and do this whole changing thing claim to support the sanctity of marriage. ...uh-huh, right.

A great point, Angela. Amazing, isn't it?

Michael

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

A great point, Angela. Amazing, isn't it?

Michael

Thanks, and oh, yes, it's astounding.

Angela

 

[melon]

Kudos to the great discussion going on here! For what it's worth, I'm gay and live with another man in a happy, committed relationship that looks to last forever. Oh, and I'm a Christian, too. Seems like a lot of people don't know how to be "real" Christians and the leaders of camps like this, as well as Zack's parents, are a great example of this.

Welcome to the forum. It's nice to have some diversity of opinion here.

Melon

 

[Irvine511]

So you are saying he probably doesn't know his true feelings on it, but you do.



What if Ben had said "It didn't work, I'm still having the same homosexual feelings as strongly as I ever did, and I know that I will never change", but I said that he only THOUGHT that the camp didn't work, and that he was actually now as straight as any other straight man, what would be your reaction to that? If I were making those assumptions, can you honestly tell me you wouldn't have debated with me on it?

i am saying that i have more experience than Ben, i've been there, and from what he says, he doesn't sound terribly "converted" to me -- in fact, it sounds like he feels better because he's made his parents happy, but that his homosexual desires have gone absolutely nowhere. he's simply able to control (i.e., repress) them better.

your question doesn't make any sense, unless you think that straight men have continual attraction to men, but are simply attracted "enough" to women to be able to have some kind of romantic relationship with them.

you're trying to filp this around, but it doesn't make any logical sense in that direction.

just like these camps don't make any logical sense. and they pretty much admit, or at least they did tonight in the Part 2 of the segment, that they don't create straight people, they merely help people "curb" behavior.

and by telling someone to repress what is as natural to them as your heterosexuality is to you is tantamount to saying: you're sick, you're wrong, you're immoral, you're diseased. God doesn't love you the way he made you (oh, sorry, God is *challenging* you).

and this is why, again, so many gay kids, especially from strongly religous households, kill themselves.

what a colossal waste of energy.

 

[VertigoGal]

what a colossal waste of energy.

yeah. I always wish that the people who put so much energy into this would go put all that energy into helping AIDS orphans or something.

 

[80sU2isBest]

your question doesn't make any sense, unless you think that straight men have continual attraction to men, but are simply attracted "enough" to women to be able to have some kind of romantic relationship with them.

you're trying to filp this around, but it doesn't make any logical sense in that direction.

It makes perfect sense in the context in which I am putting it, the context being that of someone making assumptions that are not based on the facts presented.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

yeah. I always wish that the people who put so much energy into this would go put all that energy into helping AIDS orphans or something.

Yeah, that'd be nice.

Angela

 

[indra]

I can't believe this discussion is even going on. I was telling my dad about these camps and the first thing he said was, "what's the suicide rate?" It's so sick, teaching kids to suppress their natural feelings and emotions, using fear of eternal punishment to scare kids into "becoming straight." it hurts the kids and it hurts the women they'll get into a relationship with later on, one that's doomed to fail.

Yep. And it does wonders for the egos/self images of the kids conceived in these marriages when they find at least one parent's reason for having them was "cover."