Why are you what you are, politically? - Page 14 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-19-2007, 12:28 PM   #196
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


Well, set aside that the Declaration also contains references to "the laws of nature and nature's God", "protection of Divine Providence", and "the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions."

Let's say, for a moment, that America was indeed founded on the Deist's values of secular Enlightenment as argued here.



as you've proved above, we don't have to say it. they did just say it. it is clearly not any sort of Christian god. it's the acknolwedgement of a common creator. there's no religion there. some spirituality, maybe.

you've, again, demonstrated my point.




[q]So what are we to make then, for example, of Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address and his use of "this nation, under God", or his 2nd inaugural address (inscribed in stone at his memorial) with 14 references to God and direct quotations from Genesis, Psalms and Matthew? Or, his 1863 proclamation setting aside the last Thursday of November as a day of thanksgiving?[/q]


i wasn't aware that Lincoln was a founding father. argue one thing, or argue another; but don't conflate the two.





Quote:
Wait. Sorry, did I say heterosexual? I suppose while the business at hand is to revise American history to minimize the fundamental role that religion has played from our country's founding...heck, we might as well make Lincoln gay too.


Lincoln wasn't gay in the modern sense of the word, but it is highly likely that he loved -- and made love -- to other men.
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 06-19-2007, 12:32 PM   #197
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 05:40 PM
Maycocksean,

Thanks for your posts. I've read them and appreciate the thought you've given them. All I can say is I believe there to be an ongoing intellectual and societal struggle between two world-views. Between the Judeo-Christian philosophy and materialism or secular values. (Islam is a 3rd) I believe the Judeo-Christian model to be better for mankind. The better to deal with questions of morality and the better to confront true evil in the world.

Europe has shown us the results of embracing secularism. There the eroding of Christianity led to Nazism and Communism in the last century and they find themselves now economically stagnate, aging, unable to defend themselves militarily, intellectually or culturally, and morally unprepared to meet the challenges presented by Islamic immigration.

So here, in the United States, what is a Christian to do? Suppress our moral conscience, or openly support public policy in line with Judeo-Christian morals? Argue the issues at hand solely in secular terms, or use religious language and arguments? Fight for justice, or accept injustice?
Accept the wisdom of John Adams "Our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." Or follow in the footsteps of Europe?

Civilization has never seen a greater success than the American experiment. Public religion and faith, while only one of many, have been a vital thread in that great tapestry...let's not remove it.

Push the button Frank. I'm done.
__________________

__________________
INDY500 is offline  
Old 06-19-2007, 12:50 PM   #198
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 06:40 PM
yeah, i know this wasn't addressed to me, but i wanna chime in anyway ...


Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
[B]
Thanks for your posts. I've read them and appreciate the thought you've given them. All I can say is I believe there to be an ongoing intellectual and societal struggle between two world-views. Between the Judeo-Christian philosophy and materialism or secular values. (Islam is a 3rd) I believe the Judeo-Christian model to be better for mankind. The better to deal with questions of morality and the better to confront true evil in the world.
why do we have to be so Manichean about these things? why do they have to compete? why can we only have one or the other?

to me, this is a fundamentalist -- or, even Islamist, or Christianist -- outlook.

i'm perfectly fine with pluralism, which is only enabled by secularism.


[q]Europe has shown us the results of embracing secularism. There the eroding of Christianity led to Nazism and Communism in the last century and they find themselves now economically stagnate, aging, unable to defend themselves militarily, intellectually or culturally, and morally unprepared to meet the challenges presented by Islamic immigration.[/q]


woah woah woah.

have you ever been to Eruope?

the nazis, the communists -- you know what was good about them? they knew when they were defeated. they had real, tangible, attainable goals, and when they failed to meet them, they surrendered, or collapsed.

i challenge you to find any religion that expresses earthly, achieveable goals, easily measured and quantified, and easily surrendered if those goals are impossible to achieve. this is the difference between fighting Nazi Germany and fighting Isalmofascism.

one is defeatable in a conventional sense, the other isn't. the difference? God as a motivator, as opposed to the State/earthly philosophy.



[q]Civilization has never seen a greater success than the American experiment. Public religion and faith, while only one of many, have been a vital thread in that great tapestry...let's not remove it.[/q]


i can't see how this is a quantifiable, or even remotely defensible, statement. if you're talking about GDP, then yes, nothing has ever surpassed the US. if you're talking about quality of life issues, about how societies care for their most vulnerable citizens, about "happy" citizens, about any other number of criteria, you'd be hard pressed to say America is always the best.

and let's not forget that much of our way of life came from Europe, it didn't materialize over here out of magic.

as some of our friends across the pond like to say, we (the UK) were Greece; and you (the US) are Rome.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 06-19-2007, 01:08 PM   #199
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Vincent Vega's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Berlin
Posts: 6,615
Local Time: 12:40 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500


Europe has shown us the results of embracing secularism. There the eroding of Christianity led to Nazism and Communism in the last century


Quote:
and they find themselves now economically stagnate, aging,
Are we?

Quote:
unable to defend themselves militarily, intellectually or culturally, and morally unprepared to meet the challenges presented by Islamic immigration.
We founded the Nato and for fourty years everything was done to be prepared for a Soviet attack.
After the Cold war we unfortunately didn't see the need to be prepared for another kind of war, the one that is fought now. The US wasn't so, either. If one European country got attacked, the other countries would come to help, no worries. But we've developed a philosophy to do what we could to prevent any war from happening.

I didn't know we are too stupid, morally corrupted/weak and that our culture (Euorpean culture?) isn't prepared to meet the challenges of today. We also don't see Islam as a threat, only a small precentage of the people that have decided to become fundamentalists.

But thanks for the analysis.
__________________
Vincent Vega is offline  
Old 06-19-2007, 01:23 PM   #200
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Maycocksean,

Thanks for your posts. I've read them and appreciate the thought you've given them.
I appreciate that, Indy. I can tell I'm talking to a thinking man and that's why I persist in making my case.

So "unpush" the button, Frank. I'm not done yet!

Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

All I can say is I believe there to be an ongoing intellectual and societal struggle between two world-views. Between the Judeo-Christian philosophy and materialism or secular values. (Islam is a 3rd) I believe the Judeo-Christian model to be better for mankind. The better to deal with questions of morality and the better to confront true evil in the world.
I would agree that such a struggle is taking place as well, and I too feel that Christianity is the best thing going (otherwise I wouldn't be a Christian). However, I don't believe, based on reason or on the Biblical evidence, that such a battle should or can be won through political power. Ah, there's a great quote by Charles Colson (of all people, I'm not necessarily a huge fan but nonetheless):

"Where is the hope? I meet millions of people who feel demoralized by the decay around us. The hope that each of us has is not in who governs us, or what laws we pass, or what great things we do as a nation. Our hope is in the power of God working through the hearts of people. And that's where our hope is in this country. And that's where our hope is in life. "

Now I'm sure Colson would suggest I'm misreprsenting his stand on a lot of the issues at hand and I'm sure that I am, though that is not my intention. The point he is he "accidentally" summed up for me where I think our efforts should go as Christians in private and public life.

I would also add that while there are issues of great moral concern in our country today in many ways, our nation is moving away from paying mere lip service to the values on which our country was founded, values which we believe originated with God--it's been a long struggle from ending slavery to equal rights for women, the civil rights struggle and gay rights, but the bottom line is that for many years the "In God We Trust" business on the governmental level was a lot of hypocrisy anyway. Maybe, just maybe, it's a little less so today.

Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Europe has shown us the results of embracing secularism. There the eroding of Christianity led to Nazism and Communism in the last century and they find themselves now economically stagnate, aging, unable to defend themselves militarily, intellectually or culturally, and morally unprepared to meet the challenges presented by Islamic immigration.
Let's ignore for a moment that many Europeans might disagree with your assessment of the "utter failure" of their societies. I think it's a bit of a stretch to link all of Europe's problems over the past century to a lack of governmental religiosity. However, it IS indisputable that Europeans in general are quite secular and religion definitely seems to be one the wane there. As Christians, you and I would agree that is unfortunate. However, one might also argue (and several posters have) that Europes personal secularism is less the result of secular governments but more the result of years of state religion. . .religion that was frankly corrupted and bankrupted by it's co-mingling with the state, faith without potency, "having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof". I would argue that the robust American faith is largely the result of having a faith that has largely remained in the "private sector." Isn't it an argument of faith among conservatives that private sector does it better?

Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
So here, in the United States, what is a Christian to do? Suppress our moral conscience, or openly support public policy in line with Judeo-Christian morals? Argue the issues at hand solely in secular terms, or use religious language and arguments? Fight for justice, or accept injustice?
I don't think suppressing any of the above is necessary. All of the above is acceptable. Legislating any of the above is not.

Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Accept the wisdom of John Adams "Our Constitution was made for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for the government of any other." Or follow in the footsteps of Europe?

Perhaps Adams is right (though again the assumption Adams had was that morality and religion were inextricably linked, an assumption many do not share today). So then perhaps the goal should be to BE a moral and religious person and encourage others to do so, rather than slapping some cheap government lip service on the problem. I suggest we NOT follow in the footsteps of Europe. Let's keep religion out of the government.

Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Civilization has never seen a greater success than the American experiment. Public religion and faith, while only one of many, have been a vital thread in that great tapestry...let's not remove it.
I'm not suggesting public figures should take their religion underground. I am suggesting that we don't need to have it legislated or enshrined or made part of the law. Our country is based on liberty. . .on people freely choosing their faith or not without the government's stamp of approval. Let's not remove THAT.
__________________
maycocksean is offline  
Old 06-19-2007, 02:17 PM   #201
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,685
Local Time: 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by phillyfan26
So, because we have things that mention in God in government documents right now, that's the way it should be?

Of course, status quo is INDY's favorite form of reasoning... That's all you need.
__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 06-19-2007, 02:22 PM   #202
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,685
Local Time: 05:40 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Europe has shown us the results of embracing secularism. There the eroding of Christianity led to Nazism and Communism in the last century and they find themselves now economically stagnate, aging, unable to defend themselves militarily, intellectually or culturally, and morally unprepared to meet the challenges presented by Islamic immigration.

Wow... I don't know what to say?! Maybe it's been awhile since you've taken a history lesson, or visited Europe, oh you know what it's useless the propaganda you've been fed is too far gone.

__________________
BVS is offline  
Old 06-19-2007, 02:38 PM   #203
LJT
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
LJT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Belfast
Posts: 5,039
Local Time: 12:40 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500
Europe has shown us the results of embracing secularism. There the eroding of Christianity led to Nazism and Communism in the last century and they find themselves now economically stagnate, aging, unable to defend themselves militarily, intellectually or culturally, and morally unprepared to meet the challenges presented by Islamic immigration.
I guess this answers my earlier question about what Conservative Americans think of Europe...

...frankly it's some of the most idiotic crap i've ever heard, and that is the best I can say about it. Step out of whatever bubble you are living in.
__________________
LJT is offline  
Old 06-19-2007, 02:42 PM   #204
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,294
Local Time: 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by INDY500

Europe has shown us the results of embracing secularism. There the eroding of Christianity led to Nazism and Communism in the last century and they find themselves now economically stagnate, aging, unable to defend themselves militarily, intellectually or culturally, and morally unprepared to meet the challenges presented by Islamic immigration.
Just ridiculous.

Europeans are now unintellectual? Says the guy who lives in a country where more than half the population believes in some kind of creationism and what, 3/4 can't identify the UK on a map? I mean, honestly.
__________________
anitram is online now  
Old 06-19-2007, 03:41 PM   #205
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by anitram


Just ridiculous.

Europeans are now unintellectual? Says the guy who lives in a country where more than half the population believes in some kind of creationism and what, 3/4 can't identify the UK on a map? I mean, honestly.


but don't you see? this is evidence of greater intellectual curiosity.

conservative Americans are fearless enough to dare to question the scientific status quo.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline  
Old 06-19-2007, 04:08 PM   #206
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
CTU2fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,366
Local Time: 07:40 PM
^ Yep, all those cutting-edge creationists. Neo-con-radicals, the lot of them.

So who orchestrated the massive hijack of my thread?
__________________
CTU2fan is offline  
Old 06-19-2007, 04:12 PM   #207
LJT
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
LJT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Belfast
Posts: 5,039
Local Time: 12:40 AM
Excuse me while I squirm my way out of the primordial ooze of Europe.

I do believe Ireland is ranked higher than the US for standard of living, greatest country in the world I say

But what do I know i'm just some dumb, amoral, uncultured hick.
__________________
LJT is offline  
Old 06-19-2007, 04:21 PM   #208
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 09:40 AM
Quote:
Europe has shown us the results of embracing secularism. There the eroding of Christianity led to Nazism and Communism in the last century and they find themselves now economically stagnate, aging, unable to defend themselves militarily, intellectually or culturally, and morally unprepared to meet the challenges presented by Islamic immigration.
Yeah since as an atheist one can't have a problem with backwards minded religiousity that wants to marry the state to religion and enforce the retrogressive and bigoted elements of the religion.

I am a pro-freedom atheist; the exception that disproves your rule.

Do you think it is a coincidence that Europe (the region that actually had to suffer state religion) is now so thoroughly post-Christian?
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-19-2007, 04:28 PM   #209
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 09:40 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




but don't you see? this is evidence of greater intellectual curiosity.

conservative Americans are fearless enough to dare to question the scientific status quo.
Anti-intellectualism is a defining part of what makes one cultured.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-19-2007, 04:34 PM   #210
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
CTU2fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 5,366
Local Time: 07:40 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by LJT
Excuse me while I squirm my way out of the primordial ooze of Europe.

I do believe Ireland is ranked higher than the US for standard of living, greatest country in the world I say

But what do I know i'm just some dumb, amoral, uncultured hick.
You know, all kidding aside, Americans are literally fed this dogma from the time they can speak...that we're "free-er", or that we're the only free country, or that America is the only place where you have opportunities blah blah blah. Now that propaganda is probably there by design, to keep us docile and satisfied with the status quo.

I love my country, really, but I don't think being American makes me better off than being Irish, or German, or Swiss, or whatever. And I cringe when I hear somebody repeat it, that we are, because there's sure to be someone ready to point out that most Americans can't tell where on a map Iraq is, reinforcing the stereotype that we're a bunch of morons.
__________________

__________________
CTU2fan is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:40 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com