Who here is not a Christian? Describe your own beliefs

[A_Wanderer]

Yeah living for the now may be humble but I would still rather be master of my fate all the way into the future.

 

[martha]

Truth? Prove it.

Of course people can't prove these things because they cannot be proven or disproven, they are completely unfalsifiable and should not be taken as givens.

That's the difference between Faith and philosophy.

So all "souls" that exist, have existed or ever will exist are already out there "in the ether"? What happened before life existed? What are "souls" made out of? Can we measure a soul to prove it's existence or is it just like Chi or most other mystical bullshit?

Not in the "ether," but in God. "Mystical bullshit," to which you are so hostile, cannot be measured, quantified, or argued.

Higher planes of existence, are they higher dimensions or pieces of human conciousness?

They are planes of God-consciousness.

 

[martha]

I would still rather be master of my fate all the way into the future.

Karma does allow this to some extent.

 

[For Honor]

This is meant for people who are not Christian to provide accounts for their faiths or beliefs that are not Christian. I in no way, shape, or fashion, aim to keep Christians out (as I am kind of one myself). I just wish to have good discussions about other faiths - and i will not try to convert. Again, that's not what this is about.

The more definitions I try to position myself in or around or against, the more futile I see them.

I am a christian, I am not a christian.
I do believe in god, I do not believe in god.

Does god exist?

"......"



All of these questions/statements are ..... inherently flawed. No, that's not really the right way to say it. Just.....

.......


On earth, you cannot create a vacume.
On earth, you cannot have absolute zero, (essentially).

Now, apply that sort of notion to the original post, and what I've written here, and that, in reference and in vagueness, is my position on subjects like this.


=======


but if you want a simple, shooting the bull sort of answer from me, here it is:

I am learning how to live unlimited. I try to discover, and learn, and keep my eyes open to everything - myself, the world around me... and the more I see, the less differences, boundries, barriers, etc. there are.

I'm still a kid, there is a lot I don't know. But I am happy to live my life, and I like exploring it. There are so many aspects of personality, experience, situation, life, everything....... there is so much.... and it is very comforting to know that right and wrong are just still, primal human concepts to describe thing ( inquire about FH's ideas on the inadequacy of words, language). However, I also understand that words are the best we got right now, and it certainly does make information circulation easier...

but it's not absolute.


One of the biggest problems I see these days is people thinking inside the box, but even more so.... but I'll stop my post here, for fear not many will read it.


It would take me about a week to describe everything I believe in, to be honest. And there is just no way I can do that over the internet. Words just don't do it, not like this, not typed letters and computer screens. I suppose that is a lesson I've learened over the last 2 years, heh heh heh....

 

[For Honor]

^addendum to my earlier post

I was baptised a Christian. My stepmom is a devout christian, but like many has a certain underside that she would rather not let the church hear about, etc. "typical"


anyhow....


I honestly find attending masses to be quite enjoyable these days, as opposed to earlier in my life, when I could not stand them at all. I see, when I look in the right way at them, the real truths behind waht is being said, and taught.

Even though a lot of it is clouded by simplistic human pettyness, though that really is to be expected.

I've got a whole lotta pride, mind you, but honestly..... I don't think it matters what "religion" you follow - you can can start a religion of staring at doorknobs, and you can find just as much there as anywhere else, because it is up to you, or at least others in presentation, to advance yourself and understand the truths in your universe.

But I think, too, that people should also consider the real, external universe, and seek to find the connection between yours, and the external, reality one, and ultimately, the connection, and further, the understanding that the barrier, or difference, was never ther in the first place.

Like in HERO, where the warriors ultimate goal is to lay down his sword.

So, in all reality (heh heh heh), there are many interpretations of "the father, the son, and the holy ghost".

How can 3 things be one?


One more thing,,,, this reminds me of a zen speaks comic I saw a while back.....


"Two people were walking in the rain, and one person didn't get wet. How can this be?"

very much along those lines.......

 

[BonosSaint]

^addendum to my earlier post

I've got a whole lotta pride, mind you, but honestly..... I don't think it matters what "religion" you follow - you can can start a religion of staring at doorknobs, and you can find just as much there as anywhere else, because it is up to you, or at least others in presentation, to advance yourself and understand the truths in your universe.

But I think, too, that people should also consider the real, external universe, and seek to find the connection between yours, and the external, reality one, and ultimately, the connection, and further, the understanding that the barrier, or difference, was never ther in the first place.

That was an interesting post and I find a lot of truth in that.

 

[For Honor]

..... I don't think it matters what "religion" you follow - you can can start a religion of staring at doorknobs, and you can find just as much there as anywhere else, because it is up to you, or at least others in presentation, to advance yourself and understand the truths in your universe.

futhermore (and then that's it for a while, I promise)


I believe it is, inherently the presentation that is flawed in most religions. You can have someone explain the bible and get nothing, but someone could explain a doorknob and get very much, I believe. Or should I say, I know.

I think one of the upsides of zen and buddhism is that it promotes finding things out in your own way, which is incredibly important. But even that must be kept in check with everything else, like a good balance of powers in the govenment of oneself, thoughts, interatctions, everthing, etc.

I think the ideal "religion" is a guide, and not a guidebook. Also, the more I grow and experience life, the more I believe in direct communication, as I said before, expressing my dislike of the written worn and language in general.

However, if the *obeserver* is competent and able enough, I think it can be observed from most anything , be it a mass or a doorknob, or most certainly nature, or even robots, than the observer can learn.

I think one of the real goals of religion should be getting someone to this point. Because we are not born that way, no way. I do not believe that. We are born just like all the other animals, maybe even worse off because of our mind. But that is our gift, obviously, so we have to learn how to use it.

But yes..... religion, I believe, and other education should work on getting a person to the point where they begin to see the relations, the connections, in everything, or in broader terms, to be able to understand things better. It should not be to close one's mind and say "this is the way", not in the traditional sense of there being one definition.

But in the more evolved sense of "this is the way", and understanding that you could be refereing to any one thing at all AND every thing at once.



However........ and this is key


What I have said here, and in every other post I write, is merely a reflection oy myself, of my personality. I can't really say what other people should do, just what I believe would be best, in my opinion.

So, like I said, it would really take me a long time to desrcibe everything......... but also as you can see it is very tempting to try to explain it.


I wonder sometimes, frequently really..... if explaining, especially here, is worth it at all. Is it... inherently flawed to begin with...

but I figure it's better to try than not too, even if it isn't worth it in the end. There's a small possiblity that it may actually do something, heh.......

 

[For Honor]

That was an interesting post and I find a lot of truth in that.

I forgot about our philosophy thread from a while ago. I should digit up; I've made some new progresses, maybe.


but I don't know.;.........


maybe it will give me something to do over the hollidays, which may or may not be exceedinglyboring, especially tomorrow. I'll think about it......

 

[intedomine]

This seems flawed to me. Not only should I only care, but in reality, I do only care about others because I care for me. What moral teaching teaches to care just for yourself? Egoism.
I don't murder because: a) it's not my style, b) i know it's wrong.
Neither of those two reasons include: c) because i don't want to be murdered.

If this is egoism then so be it.... what does matter is that it does give me some form of moral guidance. I am not going to commit a paedophlic act or murder someone or rape someone, and that is all that my moral sense asks of me...

The only world I know is the one that revolves around me. Everything I know, feel and understand is based on experience.

I see a human being and they are similar to me in many different ways. I can only assume that they are capable of feeling pain, (even though WE KNOW that people feel pain), and this is enough for me to not inflict pain on anyone....


This form of moral guidance works for me and, effectively, it is working for others as well, because this moral guidance is preventing me from inflicting pain on anyone else....

It works just as well, and if not better, than religion...

 

[blueyedpoet]

If this is egoism then so be it.... what does matter is that it does give me some form of moral guidance. I am not going to commit a paedophlic act or murder someone or rape someone, and that is all that my moral sense asks of me...

The only world I know is the one that revolves around me. Everything I know, feel and understand is based on experience.

I see a human being and they are similar to me in many different ways. I can only assume that they are capable of feeling pain, (even though WE KNOW that people feel pain), and this is enough for me to not inflict pain on anyone....


This form of moral guidance works for me and, effectively, it is working for others as well, because this moral guidance is preventing me from inflicting pain on anyone else....

It works just as well, and if not better, than religion...

It seems as if I've kind of misread your point. From what you're saying here it sounds as if you adhere to the golden rule: do unto others what you have done to you (sic).

I find it interesting that so many religions actually accept this principle. Does it not make the individual the measure of all things? For instance, I realize that I would feel seriously violated if someone forced me to have sex with them. I ascertain from this that others would feel the same way as I. Therefore, it must be a wrong act. That really does make me the measure.

"Yeah living for the now may be humble but I would still rather be master of my fate all the way into the future."

I probably am guilty of not really reading more about how this comment came up, but I'm wondering what you actually mean?
I feel as if it is seriously illogical for people to act only to further their present interests? Here's why:
I presently have many desires and interests. These are mine. They belong to me. Me, I am a real being. In the future I will have desires and interests. They will belong to me. Me, I will be just as much of a real being then, as I am now. It is illogical to prefer my present desires and interests, as my future desires and interests will matter to me just as much.
Maybe I've delved into a totally different conversation.

 

[BigMacPhisto]

I'm an atheist through and through. And if anyone can call themselves a Christian after seeing all of this valid proof about why it's all a fraud:

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/

Then, well, you lack sense. I do believe in the soul though. Not as a spiritual entity, but as the person we develop in our formulative years and never really change from once we reach adulthood.

 

[nbcrusader]

How'd you get so smart in just 20 years??

 

[BigMacPhisto]

How'd you get so smart in just 20 years??

Why God gave me these gifts, of course!

 

[martha]

The only world I know is the one that revolves around me. Everything I know, feel and understand is based on experience.

And so if you've never had the experience...?

Then what?

 

[indra]

I believe the following:

No one can prove the existence of god (or supreme being, etc., etc.)

No one can disprove the existence of god (or supreme being, etc., etc.)

Hardcore atheism is every bit as obnoxious as hardcore, fundamentalist religion (of any persuasion).

No one belief system has "it" (whatever "it" eventually turns out to be) absolutely correct. None.



So given the above I have to classify myself as an agnostic. I tend to fall more towards the god (or whatever) does not exist, but it is interesting to ponder the idea that one or more does/do exist, so I do ponder the idea. I also have the feeling that if a god (or gods) does exist, it won't be at all what most people expect.

 

[blueyedpoet]

I believe the following:

No one can prove the existence of god (or supreme being, etc., etc.)

No one can disprove the existence of god (or supreme being, etc., etc.)

Hardcore atheism is every bit as obnoxious as hardcore, fundamentalist religion (of any persuasion).

No one belief system has "it" (whatever "it" eventually turns out to be) absolutely correct. None.



So given the above I have to classify myself as an agnostic. I tend to fall more towards the god (or whatever) does not exist, but it is interesting to ponder the idea that one or more does/do exist, so I do ponder the idea. I also have the feeling that if a god (or gods) does exist, it won't be at all what most people expect.

I really respect this position. While I happen to be some kind of theist; I've always, philosophically, admired agnosticism. I believe experiential proof is the only proof that can move individuals over the chasm of possible disbelief.
The author of that website falls into a Russell Regress when engaging in a conversation about the objective reality of morality.

 

[intedomine]

It seems as if I've kind of misread your point. From what you're saying here it sounds as if you adhere to the golden rule: do unto others what you have done to you (sic).

It is THE golden rule: No one religious organisation can claim to own it.....

I can only see it as common sense, and yet everyday it is violated by tossers all over the globe who claim to own the thing...


You were kinda bamboozling me when you start bringing future and present interests into the argument. Indeed, there are occasional circumstances where the golden rule must be broken or twisted in order to make things better in the future....


Yet I cannot concieve of a situation where an act like rape, could have a specifically positive effect, (for either the rapist or the victim) on what happens in the future...

 

[intedomine]

And so if you've never had the experience...?

Then what?

Experience, in this sense, is not a something which everyone must actually have actually experienced, but merely witnessed or acknowledged....

Pain is something you don't need to experience first had to understand....

 

[1stepcloser]

I'm an atheist through and through. And if anyone can call themselves a Christian after seeing all of this valid proof about why it's all a fraud:

http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/

Then, well, you lack sense. I do believe in the soul though. Not as a spiritual entity, but as the person we develop in our formulative years and never really change from once we reach adulthood.

That's a cool site

Some good points, that guy pretty much summed up how i feel about religeon ect.. but with a lot more research!

 

[A_Wanderer]

Theism and agnosticism cannot be falsified, atheism on the other hand can be falsified (if we found irrefutable proof of God then atheism is disproven). Without any evidence at all to support the existence of the divine atheism is the only logical conclusion.