What qualities hurt society? - Page 4 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-13-2005, 09:32 PM   #46
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en
i think you're missing the part about the possible collapse of economic society as a result of the advanced accumulation of capital into the hands of an increasingly small minority?
No, I'm not missing it. I'm saying it ain't gonna happen any time soon, that's what I'm saying.

Marxists waiting for the collapse of capitalism is a bit like Christians awaiting the return of their Saviour. Both would be better advised finding more profitable uses of their time, in my view.
__________________

__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:39 PM   #47
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by echo0001


Selfishness and or greed are leading obstacles to charity.

"Why should my hard earned money/tax dollars go to support (Pick one: poor people, sick people, unemployed people)?"
So now taxes are a form of charity?
__________________

__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:41 PM   #48
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Se7en's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: all around in the dark - everywhere
Posts: 3,531
Local Time: 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
But these romantic idealised workers lack the leadership; don't they invariably require the educated class to lead them? It is no coincidence that most political revolutions are lead by educated and well off political idealists.


especially in today's world, the workers are not as stupid as people enjoy making them out to be. i see no reason why they can't lead themselves in a democratic form. look at bolivia. their workers effectively shut the country down with no clear leadership from an "educated class." you're sounding more like lenin or any other more authoritarian communist than marx.

Quote:
Freedom. The control over my own life. In capitalist systems it is to a degree enabled by wealth ~ but wealth can be attained; in theory any individual could strike it rich, many will not, many will remain in a soggy middle but there is no institutionalised restrictions. In a communist society could I attain a state of freedom, could I retire and move to a sunny place or travel the world wherever I want to. See individual rights are nothing to do with humanity, they are to do with the individual. The treatment of people as a monolithic block, "the worker" and the "bourgeois". The people who own business are portrayed as robber barons out of the 19th Century and the many small business owners are ignored. A nation of shopkeepers is what keeps the workers employed.
i don't see why you wouldn't be able to travel wherever you wanted to. what is stopping you? marx wrote a great deal about man being able to come to a better understanding of self once his existance is no longer reduced to the amount of capital he is forced to sell his labor for. it's true that in totalitarian dictatorships, the individual is reduced to party fodder, but marx had a much greater vision.

Quote:
So it is voluntary for those that go along with it but it must be forced upon those that oppose it. Here is the fundamental problem with this system, it is opressive to those that refuse to go along with it.
isn't that a characteristic of ANY system? capitalism is oppressive to me because i would prefer to not have to sell my labor to survive, yet i am forced to. and i can't afford health insurance and my parents have to help pay for my car insurance along the way. sucks don't it?
__________________
Se7en is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:47 PM   #49
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en
capitalism is oppressive to me because i would prefer to not have to sell my labor to survive, yet i am forced to.
"Never work" - Ne travaillez jamais - Anonymous graffiti, Paris 1968


__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:48 PM   #50
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Se7en's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: all around in the dark - everywhere
Posts: 3,531
Local Time: 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


No, I'm not missing it. I'm saying it ain't gonna happen any time soon, that's what I'm saying.

Marxists waiting for the collapse of capitalism is a bit like Christians awaiting the return of their Saviour. Both would be better advised finding more profitable uses of their time, in my view.
because all marxists do is sit around and wait for capitalism to collapse? they don't get involved with labor movements or fight extreme nationalism, racism, and sexism? i also don't expect capitalism to collapse anytime in the near future, but any crisis in the system may be something that could be taken advantage of. who's to say? we'll see. i think that if in another century or so, we still see the world progressing in the same direction of free trade and capitalism with no crisis in sight, i will concede and say that marx was way off...i'll be dead, but that's beside the point.
__________________
Se7en is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:49 PM   #51
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Se7en's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: all around in the dark - everywhere
Posts: 3,531
Local Time: 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


"Never work" - Ne travaillez jamais - Anonymous graffiti, Paris 1968


wishing to no longer be a part of a wage slavery system is quite different than never wanting to work.
__________________
Se7en is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:54 PM   #52
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en
i don't see why you wouldn't be able to travel wherever you wanted to. what is stopping you? marx wrote a great deal about man being able to come to a better understanding of self once his existance is no longer reduced to the amount of capital he is forced to sell his labor for. it's true that in totalitarian dictatorships, the individual is reduced to party fodder, but marx had a much greater vision.
I am a pawn of the state; I am not reduced to the ammount of capital that I sell I am reduced to being a resource of the state who's labour goes to the state and in return I would recieve what I need to survive. It is slavery.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:56 PM   #53
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Se7en's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: all around in the dark - everywhere
Posts: 3,531
Local Time: 12:16 PM
what state?
__________________
Se7en is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 09:58 PM   #54
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en


wishing to no longer be a part of a wage slavery system is quite different than never wanting to work.
Who would take out the garbage? who would clean the urinals? who gets to run the factories? who gets to make films? Not everybody can do the great jobs, who decides who gets what?

Being outside the "wage slavery" system is untenable; if there is no reason or reward in working then what is the point? a society like that produces less for its citizens than one where people are working for reward.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 10:00 PM   #55
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 03:16 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en
what state?
The one that makes sure that things are running smoothly enough; government is something that nations have used to organise and it has worked quite effectively. Organises things like census and taxation, would run and monitor all those industries once they get confiscated from capitalists, runs the education systems.

Or you are advocating anarcho-communism which is an entirely different system. One which still suffers from the problems of production. It is dificult to maintain living standards when there are not enough things being made. Would we have to go back to basics for your system?

Does "true communism" require mankind to go back to an agrarian society?
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 10:04 PM   #56
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Who would take out the garbage? who would clean the urinals? who gets to run the factories? who gets to make films? Not everybody can do the great jobs, who decides who gets what?
Indeed, this is EXACTLY why I think communism is closer to Christianity than it is to capitalism - because it depends upon so much on sacrificing oneself to the greater good, etc.

Human nature isn't that selfless, unfortunately.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 10:05 PM   #57
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
Does "true communism" require mankind to go back to an agrarian society?
Ha, and I said earlier on that Marx was a traditionalist.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 10:06 PM   #58
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by pax
The things that will destroy us are: politics without principle; pleasure without conscience; wealth without work; knowledge without character; business without morality; science without humanity; and worship without sacrifice.
--Gandhi
That's a good quote.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 10:07 PM   #59
ONE
love, blood, life
 
financeguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Ireland
Posts: 10,122
Local Time: 06:16 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Se7en
i also don't expect capitalism to collapse anytime in the near future, but any crisis in the system may be something that could be taken advantage of. who's to say? .
There was a pretty major crisis back in '29, and it still didn't herald in Marx's utopia.
__________________
financeguy is offline  
Old 06-13-2005, 10:07 PM   #60
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Saracene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia, some time after tea
Posts: 6,325
Local Time: 05:16 PM
- Ignorance
- Short-sightedness
- All-powerful state with all-powerful Big Man
- Excessive nationalism
- Unwillingness to change and examine itself
__________________

__________________
Saracene is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:16 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com