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Old 04-22-2006, 05:38 PM   #151
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Originally posted by martha
Sometimes.

Oh, and I'm sure you probably then use abortion as a form of birth control. BABY KILLER

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Old 04-22-2006, 05:53 PM   #152
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Originally posted by martha
...where is the federally funded health care for children whose families can't afford it? Where is the federally funded birth control to prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place? Where is the legislation preventing pollutants from poisoning children? Where is the legislation allowing adoptions to take place within loving families of all kinds?


These things are continually opposed by the same noisy bunch who thinks that my uterus is under their control.

The rich stay healthy and the sick stay poor.


And to address the original question, I've never faced this decision and hope I never will - but if I did, I'd much rather know that there was a safe, sterile location with trained, capable staff available to me rather than a back alley and a hanger.
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Old 04-22-2006, 06:39 PM   #153
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Originally posted by enggirl
AND this also assumes that everyone believes that an embryo is a "life."
The legal definition of death is cessation of brain waves so life is presence of them...a baby's brain waves start at day 28 (when the mother is only two weeks past her first missed period).The heart has already been beating for 4 days by then (an ultrasound shows the four chambers of the heart and the valves opening and closing - so cool!). That little creature has 46 chomosomes in each cell (except RBCs, just like you) and it's growing rapidly - it's human and it's alive.

Since abortion in most states is legal all nine months, could you kill a baby one minute before it's born? Or one minute after it's born? It's only a two minute difference.

Could you look a young child in the eye who was the result of a failed abortion and tell them they didn't deserve to live? Could you pick up a machete and start hacking their arms and legs off? What if *your* mother tried to abort you? Would you be willing to have people trying to kill you even now because you were inconvenient?

Show me a person whose life isn't inconvenient (as opposed to just obnoxious <raises hand>).

Here's a major reason why there's so much controversy: the average abortion costs about $1000 (goes up from there) and takes only a few minutes of the doctor's time. America averages 4004 abortions a day every day (= ~$4,000,000 a day = $28 million a week = $1.12 billion a month = over $13 billion a year). It's an industry. And abortion clinics don't have to meet the same standards of hygiene as a regular clinic. Cheap to run and incredible income. The botched abortions can be loaded into ambulances out the back door.

Hold back the innocents being carried off to slaughter.
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Old 04-22-2006, 07:44 PM   #154
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Originally posted by Rini


The legal definition of death is cessation of brain waves so life is presence of them...a baby's brain waves start at day 28 (when the mother is only two weeks past her first missed period).The heart has already been beating for 4 days by then (an ultrasound shows the four chambers of the heart and the valves opening and closing - so cool!). That little creature has 46 chomosomes in each cell (except RBCs, just like you) and it's growing rapidly - it's human and it's alive.

Since abortion in most states is legal all nine months, could you kill a baby one minute before it's born? Or one minute after it's born? It's only a two minute difference.

Could you look a young child in the eye who was the result of a failed abortion and tell them they didn't deserve to live? Could you pick up a machete and start hacking their arms and legs off? What if *your* mother tried to abort you? Would you be willing to have people trying to kill you even now because you were inconvenient?

Show me a person whose life isn't inconvenient (as opposed to just obnoxious <raises hand>).

Here's a major reason why there's so much controversy: the average abortion costs about $1000 (goes up from there) and takes only a few minutes of the doctor's time. America averages 4004 abortions a day every day (= ~$4,000,000 a day = $28 million a week = $1.12 billion a month = over $13 billion a year). It's an industry. And abortion clinics don't have to meet the same standards of hygiene as a regular clinic. Cheap to run and incredible income. The botched abortions can be loaded into ambulances out the back door.

Hold back the innocents being carried off to slaughter.
I really haven't the slightest clue as to where you found that definition of life. If you want to say that the fetus is alive, the fetus, by definition, is a parasite.
The definition of life moves far beyond brainwaves. The ability to reproduce is another key factor in determining life. Obviously, the fetus (or parasite) cannot reproduce.
Instead of me defining life, how about we let the experts do that. This is the conventional thought of what "life" is comprised of. Taken from textbooks and lecture notes.

Organization - Living things are comprised of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
Metabolism - Metabolism produces energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (synthesis) and decomposing organic matter (catalysis). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
Growth - Growth results from a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.
Adaptation - Adaptation is the accommodation of a living organism to its environment. It is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the individual's heredity.
Response to stimuli - A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism when touched to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion: the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun or an animal chasing its prey.
Reproduction - The division of one cell to form two new cells is reproduction. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth.


Recently, a woman who is the result of a failed abortion came into town to debate abortion. Could I look her in the eye and say she shouldn't have been born? Of course, from a strictly logical point of view, it makes sense. Technically, she shouldn't have been born. Had she not have been born, her feelings couldn't have been hurt, as fetus's do not have emotional systems.
However, living human beings do. It would be hurtful to hear that "you shouldn't have been born. And that's the thing, there is a difference between her and a fetus. You can't make hurt a fetus's feelings.

Asking someone if they would go up to this woman and slice off her arms and legs etc. is a horrible argument. You are attempting to pull at the strings of someone's "heart." No, you can't just go up to someone and hack away. That's murder. Why is it murder? Because that person is alive. However, simple human beings, who have not studied arguments, are swayed but such an argument. Why? Because they are living humans who have emotions. Could you do this to a fetus? I think not.
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Old 04-22-2006, 08:26 PM   #155
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Originally posted by Rini
And abortion clinics don't have to meet the same standards of hygiene as a regular clinic. .... The botched abortions can be loaded into ambulances out the back door.
Prove this. And not with some bullshit from some anti-choice website.

Do you know that when abortion was illegal, every single woman of childbearing age who went to an emergency room with a certain set of symptons was automatically assumed to have undergone a butcher job of an illegal abortion? And most of those assumptions were correct? Septic shock, hemorraging, torn internal organs. But stuff like that doesn't interest "pro-life" people. They only give a damn about fetuses, not living breathing, already born women.

Nope. All they see is a little tiny collection of cells. The woman who is living and breathing is only a vessel for the "child" she may deliver. She has no other use than that.
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Old 04-22-2006, 08:57 PM   #156
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Originally posted by Rini
Since abortion in most states is legal all nine months
As I suspected, this is disingenous and over-simplified, and under a certain light, just plain wrong.

But I'll let you defend your own lie.
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Old 04-22-2006, 09:13 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rini




Since abortion in most states is legal all nine months, could you kill a baby one minute before it's born? Or one minute after it's born? It's only a two minute difference.

I would check those facts out for real if i were you, you would probably find that termination of pregnancy is usually administered before 12 weeks, it can however be done before 20 weeks.

If the procedure had to be done past 20 weeks, it would have been done after very careful consideration and lots of factors would have been carefully looked over . You would also find that the reasons were probably health related, there are endless reasons to why that might occur.
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Old 04-22-2006, 09:42 PM   #158
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Originally posted by Rini



What if *your* mother tried to abort you? Would you be willing to have people trying to kill you even now because you were inconvenient?

Ah, but you see, my mother DID try to abort me. It was 1970--3 years before Roe v. Wade. I won't go into details but, as you see, it didn't work. And you know what? I'm STILL totally pro-choice. I look at my mom's life and think of all the hell she went through and know for a fact that the choices she made were done because she had to make them...not because it was "convenient" and not because she was dumb or irresponsible or blase about anything.
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Old 04-22-2006, 09:52 PM   #159
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Originally posted by Rini


Here's a major reason why there's so much controversy: the average abortion costs about $1000 (goes up from there) and takes only a few minutes of the doctor's time. America averages 4004 abortions a day every day (= ~$4,000,000 a day = $28 million a week = $1.12 billion a month = over $13 billion a year). It's an industry. And abortion clinics don't have to meet the same standards of hygiene as a regular clinic. Cheap to run and incredible income. The botched abortions can be loaded into ambulances out the back door.

OH, and um...bullshit. It isn't McDonald's. This isn't a lucrative thing for a doctor to do, like plastic surgery. No one is protesting plastic surgery clinics, or threatening to bomb them, or stalking the doctors and clinic staff. People aren't lined up around the block to go get their D&Cs. And hygiene? Do you know anything about the human vagina and uterus? Seroiusly--you intorduce the tiniest bit of "stuff" and you can kiss it goodbye. Infections take like *that* in there--hygeine is of the utmost importance. It is only since Roe v. Wade that abortions became safer. To turn back the law now would be to see a spike in abortion-related deaths.

Just because you have this idea that an abortion doctor is a "butcher" because of your personal sensibilites regarding abortion, that does not mean that these aren't doctors and don't treat their patients with the utmost care. Hell, some of them have to drive and even fly into certain states each week to perform the procedures. If it was so lucrative, wouldn't there be doctors lined up around the block wanting to open their own abortion clinics?

And if we want to talk money, let's talk about money. How much to raise a child you don't want? How much of our taxes go to welfare for kids whose mothers didn't have easy or cheap access to birth control? It is so much cheaper to pay for sex ed (and not that abstinence only bullshit Bush is trying to push on everyone--sex is a fact of life and everyone needs to face it maturely already) and birth control than to pay for extra mouths to feed. Ridiculously enough, it was only within the past few years that most insurance companies started to cover birth control pills. Viagra? Covered. The Pill? Naaaah...not so fast.
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Old 04-22-2006, 09:58 PM   #160
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Originally posted by blueyedpoet


I really haven't the slightest clue as to where you found that definition of life. If you want to say that the fetus is alive, the fetus, by definition, is a parasite.


It's the logical step: if the stopping of brainwaves signifies death, then the going of brainwaves is pre-death therefore life. Only live things can suffer death.
It's a parasite just like you and I are for the first 16-22 years of our lives. Some people are emancipated earlier but it's not the norm in Western civilization. If your family or the government is paying your bills, you're a parasite. Unless you want to just call it being family. Old, helpless people need their families, too, to take care of them. If you live long, you'll get old, too. Think about it.
BTW, I'll answer your points, but what's the main thing on your mind? I don't know if it's abortion...

Quote:
The definition of life moves far beyond brainwaves.
But it's still included. Rocks don't have brainwaves. Living humans do, and that was my point.

Quote:
The ability to reproduce is another key factor in determining life. Obviously, the fetus (or parasite) cannot reproduce.
No where will you find a definition of life that necessitates reproduction from immature living things. There are some animals (some salamanders, for instance) who reproduce in a larval stage, but it's older larvae. That fetus has the potential of reproduction at maturity, and that's part of the definition of life. So the fetus fits inside this definition.

Quote:
Instead of me defining life, how about we let the experts do that.
Now you're ducking. Our whole educational system is set up to slowly build you to expert status, if you keep at it long enough. Some people don't need expert status, but they'll learn some things that are basic to what is understood by experts. It's part of our culture to debate, and some facts are known, and some are twisted and need exposure for what they are.

Quote:
This is the conventional thought of what "life" is comprised of. Taken from textbooks and lecture notes.

Organization - Living things are comprised of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
People start out as one cell and grow to many cells.

Quote:
Metabolism - Metabolism produces energy by converting nonliving material into cellular components (synthesis) and decomposing organic matter (catalysis). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
Fetal humans synthesize food from the mother through the umbilical cord as the source of growth. They excrete metabolites through their blood system. They maintain homeostasis.

Quote:
Growth - Growth results from a higher rate of synthesis than catalysis. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter.
A fetus grows the most rapidly they ever will their entire 70-80 year life span potential.

Quote:
Adaptation - Adaptation is the accommodation of a living organism to its environment. It is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the individual's heredity.
In this case, the environment is perfectly suited for the baby's existance. They have to adapt after birth like crazy. Premature babies adapt and they're still basically so many weeks from conception.

Quote:
Response to stimuli - A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism when touched to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion: the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun or an animal chasing its prey.
Ever heard of a video called the "Silent Scream"? It's an ultrasound of a baby being aborted. You can see the baby pushing the abortionist's instrument away, and as part of its body is ripped off, the mouth opens and the face grimaces in what can only be an expression of severe pain.

Quote:
Reproduction - The division of one cell to form two new cells is reproduction. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth.
Already checked this one off above.

Quote:
Recently, a woman who is the result of a failed abortion came into town to debate abortion. Could I look her in the eye and say she shouldn't have been born? Of course, from a strictly logical point of view, it makes sense.
Logic? Explain - what logic is that? What logic says people shouldn't live?

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Technically, she shouldn't have been born.
Technically? What are you talking about? Look up technically in your dictionary and explain what you mean.

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Had she not have been born, her feelings couldn't have been hurt, as fetus's do not have emotional systems.
I challenge you to quote scientifically qualified sources to support this. And define what you mean by "emotional system," preferably from your text and lecture notes.

Quote:
However, living human beings do. It would be hurtful to hear that "you shouldn't have been born. And that's the thing, there is a difference between her and a fetus. You can't make hurt a fetus's feelings.
How would you know? They can't tell you, and baby's tear ducts don't start working until after they're born.
If a fetus's feelings aren't knowingly hurt, does this mean they deserve to be cut up alive? Support this outrageous statement.

Quote:
Asking someone if they would go up to this woman and slice off her arms and legs etc. is a horrible argument. You are attempting to pull at the strings of someone's "heart." No, you can't just go up to someone and hack away. That's murder. Why is it murder? Because that person is alive.
Bingo.

And ask yourself why a person can't just murder another person (take several years if you have to - this is key to civilization).

Quote:
However, simple human beings, who have not studied arguments, are swayed but such an argument. Why? Because they are living humans who have emotions. Could you do this to a fetus? I think not.
Sometimes "emotions" are really conscience.
Cutting arms and legs off a living being only bothers simple people? So sophisticated people don't mind cutting arms and legs off a child because the mother tried to kill it and wasn't sucessful? You've just insulted the humanity of nearly every person on this list.

No where else in the civilized world do we murder people because they are inconvenient.
Now let me make one point (having responded to yours): there is an abortion-recovery movement for women who have had abortions and have had their lives ruined by it. They're depressed (suicide rate of women who aborted is way above women who haven't), guilty, and some look at kids and think, "My kid would have been this old now...if he/she were still alive." It's a living hell for some of them, even if it doesn't hit them for 5-15 years. So why do women kill themselves or live in regret over a "just a fetus"? The numbers are statistically significant.
I had a friend who was a pro-abortion doctor (endocrinologist)whose wife was discovered mid-pregnancy to have advanced cancer. They delivered the baby at 6 months so they could start her on chemotherapy. They both died, and my friend never got over the loss. He said holding his dead six month "fetus" in his arms made him instantly pro-life.
That's not an emotional argument for simple minds - he was a doctor with 12 years of college and it changed his life when confronted with the reality.
She was human, you see, and she was his daughter.
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Old 04-22-2006, 10:19 PM   #161
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Originally posted by martha


Prove this. And not with some bullshit from some anti-choice website.

OK.
I'm off to bed now but I will dig up the proof and present it for you in a reasonable way.

And why not some bull shit from some "anti-choice" website? Is a fact not a fact if you disagree with the source? If a fact can be substantiated and it's legitimate on its own, then a reputable source is merely a conduit.
Or are you willing to get all your info from pro-life sources only to meet me half way?
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Old 04-22-2006, 10:30 PM   #162
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there is an abortion-recovery movement for women who have had abortions and have had their lives ruined by it. They're depressed (suicide rate of women who aborted is way above women who haven't), guilty, and some look at kids and think, "My kid would have been this old now...if he/she were still alive." It's a living hell for some of them]
There is something I should have added here...there is hope for these women. Peace is possible. The fact of the lost child never goes away, but there is life without guilt.
I'm not condemning people who've had abortions as being horrible...abortion is horrible but surmountable. I'm not throwing stones at anyone, but have a tenderness for hurting people. I'm not perfect, either, and no one is throwing stones at me (if they do, my shoulders are broad).
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Old 04-22-2006, 10:31 PM   #163
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Originally posted by enggirl



It is so much cheaper to pay for sex ed (and not that abstinence only bullshit Bush is trying to push on everyone--sex is a fact of life and everyone needs to face it maturely already) and birth control than to pay for extra mouths to feed.
This is a fantastic statement and I just wanted to bump it up to the glorious place in the heavens it deserves.

As Tony Bruno would say... Beeeauuutiful. Hahaha.

Just last week I heard that murder was a fact of life... embezzlement was bound to happen... and "It wasn't my fault that she thought that swallowing was not contagious".

What a fucking country we live in.

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Old 04-22-2006, 10:43 PM   #164
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Originally posted by Rini
Here's a major reason why there's so much controversy: the average abortion costs about $1000 (goes up from there) and takes only a few minutes of the doctor's time. America averages 4004 abortions a day every day (= ~$4,000,000 a day = $28 million a week = $1.12 billion a month = over $13 billion a year). It's an industry. And abortion clinics don't have to meet the same standards of hygiene as a regular clinic. Cheap to run and incredible income. The botched abortions can be loaded into ambulances out the back door.
i have been holding back from posting in this thread for three days. partly because it physically hurts me to read the things that people such as yourself say every time this topic surfaces here in FYM, and partly because miss martha is such an awesome, incredible woman that whether she realizes it or not she has been speaking with many of our voices and fighting with many of our hearts.

but after reading your post, Rini, i felt compelled to make a few corrections. the average abortion costs far, far less than a thousand dollars. go ahead, call your local clinic and ask them what it costs to terminate a pregnancy. after you do, please come back here and post the real figure. then, do me another favor, and go visit an actual clinic. and after you do that, why don't you come back here, apologize for your ignorance, and edit what has to be one of the most uniformed and uneducated posts i have ever read in one of these threads.
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Old 04-22-2006, 10:47 PM   #165
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Since abortion in most states is legal all nine months
this is also a false "fact"
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