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Old 11-08-2002, 04:18 PM   #16
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Originally posted by STING2
Please don't tell me you think they had justification for their actions on 9/11.
No I do not think there is any justification for 9-11.

Like most observers of that event I found it horrifying.

I am still uncomfortable watching images and video of that event, knowing thousands of lives are perishing before my eyes. And the tremendous loss that loved ones will have to live with the rest of their lives.
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Old 11-10-2002, 12:14 PM   #17
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There is nothing, and I do mean nothing, more dangerous in this world than an extremist - someone who believes in something so blindly, so desperately, that they are willing to kill for it, and not compromise.

More often than not, this species is at the heart of every problem, these are the ones who turn a movement into a blood-bath, a revolution into a holocaust. What's even worse, once they turn to extemism, there is usually no turning back, nothing enters their minds, and that includes our concept of morality, our concept of what is fair; this is the crucial difference between, for instance, the American revolutionaries fighting against British rule and the IRA.

People have beliefs, but how far are they willing to go to stand by them? Ravage lands, of course. Fight a war in the open air against those who oppress, most certainly. But what of the innocents, those who have nothing to do with the oppression - there is a limit and boundary, and there is such a thing as going too far.

No matter what you believe, no matter how much you may not like the idea of Northen Ireland belonging to the UK and no matter how much 'patriotism' you may feel for your country, the fact is targetting innocent civilians is going too far, especially when most of these innocent civilians don't even give a damn about your political argument or whether you like being called Irish or British - they want no part of it and aren't interested in blood spilt, they wish to go on with their lives.

Were there terrorists in the American Revolution? I imagine there must have been. Was it a terrorist movement? No. It was not. It consisted of battles fought in the plain open air, army against army, and this is how it should have been. But for every American revolutionary that raped or brutally murdered an innocent party, and there is one in every revolution, it must be said that the person crossed the line; there is such a thing as morality within war, just because murder becomes justified in the light of noble cause, it does not mean that crimes are to be unnoticed. I use the American Revolution as a mere example, for their have ALWAYS been crimes within wars, people crossing the line of morality in a war fought for nobler and higher purporses.

There is a distinction between a fighter, and a terrorist, and I do take offence of hearing the words 'IRA' and 'needed' being used in the same sentence. How were they needed? Has their existence done anything whatsoever constructive in establishing peace? Are we better off with them or without them? To use President Bush's apparently most liked way of beginning a sentence, 'make no mistake about it'; the IRA are needed as much as the ETA are in Spain, as much as hostage-taking at a theatre in Russia, as much as the New York skyline, not to mention the entire nation, being permanently scarred, as much as thousands of innocents dying.

The IRA are needed as much as a bullet to the head.

Ant.
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Old 11-10-2002, 03:56 PM   #18
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Interesting post Anthony although the Revolutionary War is not really a good analogy for the conflict in Northern Ireland in terms of terrorism.
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Old 11-10-2002, 04:03 PM   #19
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No, its not STING2, thats why its not an analogy; its an example illustrating how different such movements are. I have yet to see a battle fought out on the plains in Northern Ireland as they were in the American Revolution.

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Old 11-10-2002, 04:17 PM   #20
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Sorry I miss read you there. Actually there were a few battles that were fought in or near cities in the Revolutionary War. But back then, the largest city Boston only had 30,000 residents tops compared to the Boston and metro area today that has 5 million. Back then we were a nation of rural comunities, small farm villiages.
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Old 11-10-2002, 04:20 PM   #21
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True, but you do agree that they were, if compared, totally different campaigns, were they not? I mean, the distinction between 'freedom-fighting' and 'terrorism' can be seen here, agreed?

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Old 11-10-2002, 08:03 PM   #22
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Allright i would like to start off by saying i dont think what the IRA does is 100% correct, nor do i think they are the only reason there is a rep. of IRL.

The main factor the Republic came about is the IRA, led by Micheal Collins, Eamon De Valera. In 1919 the IRA and Sinn Fein was established and became very popular in Ireland. In the years to come the IRA were very violent towards britsh officals and police. In my opinion without the IRA and Sinn Fein the reublic would not have been established.

Now have the IRA done alot of things i don not agree with? Yes. Have the Britsh army and gov't done many things that i dont agree with? Yes. I could make the same arguement about the Britsh army using terrorist methods to rid Ireland of the IRA.

The real question comes down to if you think that the IRA is a army fighting for freedom from a occupying gov't. I personally think they are. I see the same thing happening in Israel. Do the Israelies have the same right to occupy Palestineines? The Palestinies dont have fiddlers chance to beat Israel in army conmbat so they turn to bombings and terrorist activities. This is an option that they must take in order to free themselves from occupation.

The IRA is no longer a needed establisment in Ireland. Sinn Fein does their fighting for them. Gerry Adams recently said he can see in the forseeable future a life without the IRA. But how could far could Sinn Fein and the repbulican movement come without the IRA. They forced many negotiations and broke many off. But with the message that was being sent was that 'we will not lay down and take occupation without putting up a fight'. This is a very important thing the British gov't understands, now. many Britsih politicians thought that if they steeped up the offensive they could just kill the movement but that was wishful thinking as they found out.

When you believe in your heart that you are being treated badly occupied then to pick up arms and fight againist that is the human instinct. To fight againist what you think is wrong. If you think about it many of the countries that were under British Rule were freed by violent and harsh fighting. The IRA and the irish ppl seen this and used it in their thinking. How could you say to me that you honestly think that N.I. really belongs to the Brits. Yes if there was to be a united Ireland the Prodestants would not be happy but i believe the republicans would never get a deal in which unionists were taken into consideration. I think republicans would have to make a lot of consseions to make it work. I also think they are at that point in which they would make those concesions.

I am by no streach of the imagination an full fledged IRA supporter but i do think as history shows they were a vital part of getting the 26 counties. They have not be succesful in claiming the other 6 but that is now in the hands of Sinn Fein. And i hope one day there will be a united Ireland.
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Old 11-10-2002, 10:46 PM   #23
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Agreed
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Old 11-10-2002, 11:27 PM   #24
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Bonoman,

Fighting injustice is fine, but terrorism is not. Terrorism is the targeting of civilians. The IRA killed far more civilians than they did soldiers. But a more important question is was violence necessary to produce the results we see today. African Americans achieved civil rights without firing a shot in anger as did Ghandi in India. Its not to say that violence is never a legitimate option, but there are sometimes more effective ways to achieve ones goals, especially when dealing with a democracy like the United Kingdom which is susceptible to non-violent action. Also, if a form of violence is necessary in fighting a dictatorship, that does not give one the right to indiscriminately kill people who have nothing to do with the oppression.

I certainly support those who fought for civil rights in Northern Ireland through non-violent action. But I believe the terrorism made the peace process more difficult and simply prolonged the conflict and the poverty level in Northern Ireland.

I certainly don't support the Palestinians terrorist actions which simply kill innocent people like the teens dancing at a club in Tel Aviv this past Spring. The Palestinians target every Israely women and child and attempt to set off bombs where the most innocent people can be killed. That is sick, and accomplishes no military or political objective. The only way the Palestinians will achieve an independent state, is through negotiation and non-violent action. Thats a fact whether they like it or not.

I question your belief that there is not a united Ireland. The 6 counties don't have a wall around them. As I said before back in January, with the exception of the currency and a few sites in Belfast and Derry, it did not feel any different than the Rep. of Ireland itself. The majority of the people of the Rep. of Ireland and Northern Ireland are not interested in seeing a union between the Rep. and the 6 counties. Its pointless to free people that are already free. There is nothing to free them from. Just currency and names and borders on a map.
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Old 11-11-2002, 11:28 PM   #25
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Just because now adays it doesnt seem to be as bad and NI has come into their own doesnt mean that its still not under British rule. There is a princapal here. The princapal is that there is a forigein country holding power over something that should be returned to us.

I know what you are saying when you say that its only the currency and a few sites in Belfast and Derry but its more to some ppl. Just recently the power sharing gov't was suspended. This is the decsion of the British gov't and they can do as they please. I dont think Britian really cares for NI as much as they do their own ppl. I do think if NI were to become one with Rep. they would prospere and would then be able to look after themselves and make their own decsions.

You know the best thing to come out of all the fighting is the music. I love rebel songs!!!
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Old 11-12-2002, 02:37 AM   #26
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Remember SBS is not a rebel song.

I think most people in Northen Ireland do not consider themselves ruled by anyone. Catholics get great jobs in Northern Ireland just as Protestants do. Both can leave and move and live and work in the Rep. Of Ireland or anywhere else in the world.

When you say the United Kingdom is a foreign country, you forget that the majority of the population of Northern Ireland claim the United Kingdom as their country. The Protestant majority of Northern Ireland that has lived there for generations has every right to remain apart of the United Kingdom. Ideally back in the 1920s, the 6 counties should have been partioned somehow to allow Catholics to live in the Rep. but let Protestants living there remain apart of the United Kingdom. You have to respect the Protestant majority in Northern Ireland who may view their land in Nothern Ireland as being apart of the United kingdom.
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Old 11-12-2002, 02:48 AM   #27
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SBS is a nothing song compared to any rebel song. I'm talking eire og, charlie and the bhoys, wolfetones, christy moore.

I hate it when people boil it down to just religion. I know religion seperates alot of ppl but i think this is not ultimitlly about religion its about freedom from a country that has been controling us for so long.

Religion plays a part but I dont think it should. I have to go to bed but will try to respond more in depth tommorow. good night
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Old 11-12-2002, 02:56 AM   #28
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I understand, but most people in Northern Ireland do not feel they are being controlled by a foreign country.
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