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Old 04-13-2005, 07:10 PM   #76
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ahh... what amazes me even more is all of the people see it so plainly, and have evidence to support faith... and are quite fanatical about it...

and an all of the people who are so dang sure there is no God, no Jesus, and ARE SO SURE -- that their level of confidence comes across quite arrogant...


AND THEN THERE IS THE ALL OF THE PEOPLE THAT DON'T GIVE A SHIT.

between these 3 camps, people have to learn to trust group 1 or 2 and that's a very hard thing for group 3 to do.

If you were God... which group is your group?
group 3
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Old 04-13-2005, 07:13 PM   #77
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Originally posted by MadelynIris
ahh... what amazes me even more is all of the people see it so plainly, and have evidence to support faith... and are quite fanatical about it...

and an all of the people who are so dang sure there is no God, no Jesus, and ARE SO SURE -- that their level of confidence comes across quite arrogant...


AND THEN THERE IS THE ALL OF THE PEOPLE THAT DON'T GIVE A SHIT.

between these 3 camps, people have to learn to trust group 1 or 2 and that's a very hard thing for group 3 to do.

If you were God... which group is your group?

if i were god, my group would be "group 4" -- those thoughtful, honest agnostics who have used the brains i've given them to seriously question everything and have arrived at the conclusion that to confidently assert either my existence or my non-existence is foolish, and that all you can know is that you can't know, and that's why we call it *FAITH* -- which is believe in the face of doubt, and should be naturally tempered by humility -- and that i wouldn't blame anyone a single bit who found the lack of compelling evidence either way to be insufficient grounds for faith. and i'd love them all the more for it. i gave them brains and logic and rationality for a reason -- they damn well better use it, and arrive at their own honest, hard-fought conclusions.
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Old 04-13-2005, 07:18 PM   #78
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Ah - but 'established' logic hasn't always paid off for the human race. It's been flawed time and time again.

Sure we make scientific progress - and base our logic on what fits together at any moment in our history - but when we try to step out too far, we get pulled back in 50 to 75 years later.

Can we be so arrogant to actually say, that answer to life, the universe and everything is 42?

Again, I don't think we know what the question is actually, and we can't be so arrogant to claim that we do.
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Old 04-13-2005, 07:25 PM   #79
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Can we be so arrogant to actually say, that answer to life, the universe and everything is 42?


as good or better an answer
than what some call their absolute truth

(i am talking about extreemists here and not 80s)
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Old 04-13-2005, 07:53 PM   #80
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Ah - but 'established' logic hasn't always paid off for the human race. It's been flawed time and time again.

Sure we make scientific progress - and base our logic on what fits together at any moment in our history - but when we try to step out too far, we get pulled back in 50 to 75 years later.

Can we be so arrogant to actually say, that answer to life, the universe and everything is 42?

Again, I don't think we know what the question is actually, and we can't be so arrogant to claim that we do.


our understanding of the world is created by factors that are beyond our control and not of our choosing. one must live now, and not everyone has the luxury of sitting back and contemplating the infinite. God knows this. God knows that we do the best we can when we can.

and if God is compassion, or at least compassionate, then this is exactly what we should be doing, even from his perspective.
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Old 04-13-2005, 10:06 PM   #81
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Keep in mind, some of these prophecies were made 1,000 years before Jesus walked this earth. The ones concerning crucifixion were made more than 500 years before crucifixion was ever used as a form of capital punishment!
The OT texts date to around 500-600 B.C., when the Jews emerged from exile in the Persian Empire. Even then, our OT canon is the Pharisees' canon. I'd be interested to see the Sadducees' canon to compare and contrast. Unfortunately, I don't think it even exists anymore.

I believe the Persian Empire used crucifixion as well, and the Roman Empire, actually, learned from them. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong.

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Old 04-13-2005, 10:11 PM   #82
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Yeah Melon, that sounds about right. According to this, the Persians were the first to use it.

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http://www.sherriszeman.com/pieta_li...rucifixion.htm

CRUCIFIXION
Etymology
Crucifixion, from Latin. The noun of the verb cruci fīgĕre (meaning "to fasten" or "to affix" to a "cross"), later written as one word, crucifīgĕre, then as cruci fixus and subsequently again as one word crucifixus, meaning "one fixed to a cross." Δ

History
Though most commonly associated in the Western world with the Roman execution of Jesus of Nazareth (also referred to as "Jesus Christ"), the practice of crucifixion was widespread in the ancient world and existed at least eight centuries before the execution of Jesus. Δ

According to Greek author Herotodus (485-425 BCE), the Persians were the first to use crucifixion, possibly adapting it from the Assyrians, a Mesopotamian people whose ruthless and savage conquest of the Near East around 700 BCE made them one of the most feared of the ancient empires. Δ

The Assyrians impaled many of their victims on wooden stakes, from which Herotodus believes the practice of crucifixion developed. The Assyrians lost their power in 612 BCE when they were defeated by the Babylonians, who were themselves conquered by the Persians less than a century later in 539 BCE. Δ

When Alexander the Great of Macedonia conquered the Persian Empire, reclaiming Greece as well as expanding his empire throughout Mesopotamia, India, and Egypt (336-323 BCE), he not only Hellenized his vast territories by promoting the Greek language, culture, and customs, but he himself adopted some of the customs of his conquered peoples, most notable, crucifixion. Δ

After Alexander's siege and victory over Tyre, a Phoenician city on the Mediterranean, Alexander crucified its 2,000 survivors as an example to deter future resistance. Δ

After Alexander's untimely death at a young age, the Romans conquered the Greeks and Carthaginians. It is extremely probable that crucifixion as a method of capital punishment was adopted, adapted, and perfected by the Romans. Δ

Crucifixion was practiced in the Roman Empire until approximately 320 CE when Emperor Constantine, who had converted to Christianity himself after a prophetic dream and made Christianity the official state religion of the Empire, banned crucifixion out of respect to his new god, Jesus. Δ

According to Roman writer Marcus Tullius Cicero (106-43 BCE), crucifixion was "the extreme and ultimate punishment," the "cruelest and most disgusting penalty," reserved exclusively for slaves, violent criminals, rebels, and non-Roman citizens. Additionally, it was meted out only for specific and serious capital crimes, such as treason, rebellion, and murder. Δ

In the captured provinces, the Romans used public crucifixions much as did Alexander the Great — to deter uprisings and to maintain control over the conquered populace. In 71 BCE, after the slave rebellion led by the legendary Spartacus, Roman governor Crassus crucified Spartacus and 6,000 of his followers along the Appian Way, the main road leading to Rome. Δ

Crucifixion as a method of capital punishment and as a deterrence to rebellion was introduced into Palestine when it was conquered by the Romans. When the Jews rebelled against Rome in 70 CE, the Roman general Titus crucified 500 Jews a day. Δ

Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, who later became a Roman citizen and who called crucifixion "the most pitiable of deaths," reported on this incident in his book Jewish Wars, stating that outside the walls of Jerusalem "there was enough room for the crosses [but] not enough crosses for the [victims]." Δ

Method
The cross used in Roman crucifixions, though depicted in Christian art as shaped like the English lower-case letter t, was more likely shaped like the Greek letter tau, which resembles the English capital letter T. Δ

The upright piece of wood, called the stipes (meaning "stem, log, post, tree trunk"), was permanently set into the ground. Due to the heavy weight of the crosspiece with the victim attached, the stipes was probably only about six feet tall — if even that high — allowing the guards to more easily hoist the condemned with ropes up onto the stipes. Δ

The crosspiece, called the patibulum (meaning "of or pertaining to the gallows" as well as "the horizontal section of the cross"), was mockingly derived by the Romans from the word patible, meaning "able to suffer." Thus the condemned man, who was forced to carry the 20-30 kilo [75-150 pound] patibulum to the fixed location of the stipes, was often referred to as the patibullus, meaning "one who is able to suffer." Δ

To increase the victim's degradation and humiliation, the victim was often forced to carry the patibulum naked through the most populated sections of the city. Even if he were not submitted to that degradation, he would have been crucified naked. As all the stipes were located in public locations outside city walls, the victim's nudity added psychological torment and shame — in an honor/shame-based culture — to his physical torture and suffering. Δ

Some of the condemned were also forced to wear a titulum, a sign around their necks stating the nature of their crime. Whether the titulum remained around the victim's neck during the actual crucifixion is unknown. Δ

The patibulum was notched in the center where it rested on the stipes, which allowed the combined weight of the patibulum and the condemned's body to secure the patibulum to the stipes. Δ

A board was sometimes nailed to the upright stipes, just under the buttocks of the condemned. This board, called a sedile (meaning "seat"), provided just enough support for the crucified victim to "rest" by lowering his torso's weight onto it. In doing so, however, the victim's torture was dramatically increased since his lowered weight on the sedile stretched his arms unnaturally upward, making it excruciatingly difficult, if not impossible, to breathe, and casing spasmodic contractions and rigid cramps of the muscles. Δ

The condemned man's arms could be tied to the patibulum or fastened with iron nails through his wrists or forearms. Contrary to the popular depiction of Jesus' crucifixion in Christian art (which did not appear until medieval times), it would have been impossible for nailed hands to bears the weight of the body. The hands would have ripped free of the nail, up though the fingers. Δ

If the victim was nailed to the patibulum through the wrist, he would suffer additional torture since the middle nerve, which controls the movement of the thumb, is located in this area. This trauma to the middle nerve would force the thumb toward the center of the palm and result in excruciating nerve pain in the hands, wrists, and forearms. Δ

Both tying or nailing the victim's arms to the patibulum would produce a torturous, prolonged death. It seems that the Romans either tied or nailed their victims' arms depending on the number of victims to be crucified at any one time, and on the humor, mood, or sadistic nature of the individual guards handling each crucifixion. Δ

After the victim's demise and eventual removal from the cross, the patibulum was taken off the stipes for re-use and to prevent theft. Δ

Archeological Evidence of First Century Roman Crucifixion Practices
Archeological evidence on the remains of two crucified skeletons from the first century CE indicate that the Romans used numerous methods to attach the victim's legs to the stipes. In any method, however, there is no evidence of a footrest or of the condemned's being nailed through his feet. Both of the discovered crucified skeletons still contained the iron spike that had fastened their legs to the stipes, and both were nailed through the ankles or heel bones rather than through the feet. Δ

One victim, whose arms had apparently been tied to the patibulum since they bore no signs of nail-induced trauma, had had his ankles nailed on either side of the stipes. A piece of olive wood had been placed between his ankle and the nail, apparently to prevent the victim from pulling his legs free of the nail. This victim's legs were straight, straddling the stipes, and immobilized. Δ

The remains of the second crucified skeleton, belonging to a man named Jehohanan, had had his legs pressed together, bent at the knees, and unnaturally twisted to one side so that his calves were touching the back of his thighs and were parallel to the patibulum. An iron nail was driven through his heels into the stipes just below the sedile in the location of his buttocks. Δ

This contorted position, in itself, would have caused agonizing muscle cramps and torturous spasms in the legs, eventually spreading throughout the entire body. In either position of the nailed legs — straight and straddling the stipes, or twisted, bent, and affixed to the stipes beneath the buttocks — the victim would be unable to relieve the excruciating muscle spasms since he would be unable to change the position of his body. Δ

In addition, contrary to the archeological remains of the victim whose arms were tied to the cross, or to other victims who were fastened by nails through the wrists, Jehohanan's skeleton reveals a friction groove in the lower third of his radial bone, indicating that his arms were nailed to the patibulum through the two bones in his forearms (his wrists and hands showed no evidence of trauma). Δ

Cause of Death
The exact physiological cause of death in crucifixion is not known. According to Roman writer Livy and to Jewish historian Josephus, all victims of Roman crucifixion were scourged beforehand, either at the site of the stipes or at the place of judgment. The whips were made of leather thongs embedded with sharp pieces of iron or bone, lacerating the condemned's skin and underlying subcutaneous tissues, causing great muscle damage, arterial blood loss, and additional bodily fluid loss. Δ

The victim was scourged on his back, shoulders, neck, and (sometimes) head (which sometimes caused the thongs to cut the victim's face). In addition to weakening the victim, the flogging increased his pain during the crucifixion, both as he was forced to carry the massive weight of the patibulum on his ravaged shoulders and neck, and his raw back would constantly rub against the stipes. Δ

No doubt many victims, depending on their physical stamina as well as on the duration and intensity of their scourging, died due to blood loss and severe dehydration caused by loss of bodily fluids. Δ

Originally, it was believed that all victims of crucifixion died of gradual asphyxiation. Subsequent observations and controlled experiments in the twentieth century have made this assumption untenable. Asphyxiation is the cause of death only in certain situations, dependent upon the victim's body position and freedom of movement. Δ

Crucifixion does not prevent inhalation: it restricts exhalation, causing a toxic build-up of carbon dioxide in the blood. Δ

Exhalation involves the muscles of the diaphragm (under the lungs) as well as the intercostalis muscles between the ribs. The more upright the position of the victim's arms, the more difficult it is for these muscles to function properly. Δ

Furthermore, if the victim is unable to use his legs to push his body upward, to relieve the pressure on these muscles, death can occur from asphyxiation within a matter of minutes. Δ

In the Nazi concentration camp of Dacchau during World War II, prisoners of war reported that victims suspended by their wrists died within minutes if their feet were weighted or made stationary, and within hours if the victims' feet were mobile and unweighted, allowing the victims to raise and lower their bodies to permit proper respiration. Death eventually came to the latter group as a result of extreme physical exhaustion and resulting asphyxiation. Δ

As reported in F. T. Zugibe's "Death by Crucifixion" in the Canadian Society of Forensic Science (volume 17, issue 1, pages 1-13), a series of carefully monitored and controlled studies on student volunteers demonstrated that if the students were affixed to the crossbeams with their arms fully outstretched, as Jesus is depicted in Christian art, the students reported no difficulty breathing. Δ

If the condemned victim were attached to the cross in this manner then, Zugibe theorizes that death would eventually result not from asphyxiation but from hypovolemic shock, a "condition characterized by low blood pressure and reduced blood flow to the cells and tissues, leading to irreversible cell and organ injury, and eventually to death." Δ

In this manner, death could be delayed (and torture prolonged) for days. In fact, Zugibe argues that under these conditions, if the sedile were provided so that the victim could have minimal support for his buttocks, death would be even further delayed (though the physical suffering, of course, would not). Δ

Death could also have been caused by blood poisoning since the rusty iron nails or spikes were reused multiple times. The flogging wounds, exposed and scraped against raw, un-sterile, and perhaps splintered wood, could have eventually become gangrenous — again, causing blood poisoning. Δ

Dehydration, starvation, and exposure to the elements could also have been physiological causes of death, varying for each individual. Δ

It has been reported in various sources that, in an act of clemency to hasten the victim's death, the victim's legs were often broken to prevent their raising their bodies to a position that allowed more regular exhalation. Δ

Also, the victim was often offered a soporific drink, making him less sensible to the pain of the crucifixion if not actually causing unconsciousness. Both of these acts of clemency would have caused death to occur within minutes. Δ

Despite the claim by Flavius Josephus that one of his friends survived crucifixion after three days on the cross, we cannot assume that very many victims survived. For one thing, Josephus' other two friends, crucified at the same time, did, indeed, expire, and Josephus provides no description of the method in which his surviving friend was affixed to the cross that would have explained his completely unexpected and highly unusual survival (though Josephus does report that his friend was quite ill and incapacitated for a long period of time after he was removed from the cross). Δ

Besides, given the Romans' efficiency and their reason for crucifixion as a deterrence and punishment of rebellion in the conquered provinces, it seems likely that even a numerically insignificant number of survivors would have immediately caused the Romans to alter their methodology to ensure death of the crucified victims. Δ

No matter what the actual physiological cause of death by crucifixion, however, the victim's suffering would be severe and ghastly. Muscle crams, spasms, muscle rigidity and paralysis, fever from open and infected wounds, excruciating nerve pain from nails, blood loss, dehydration, blood poisoning, or gangrene — all combined with the psychological torment of the crucifixion and the public exposure of the genitalia and buttocks in an honor/shame-based society such as existed in Palestine during the Roman occupation, would have made crucifixion one of the most feared and ruthless forms of capital punishment. Δ

Post-Mortem Disposal of Victims' Bodies
Basically, the Romans did not bury the victims of crucifixion, and rarely did they allow even the wealthiest of families to remove the bodies of their dead loved ones. Δ

In order to increase the victim's and his family's humiliation, as well as to intensify crucifixion's deterrent effect, the dead bodies remained on the cross indefinitely. Δ

Wild beasts, dogs, and birds of prey often dismantled the carcasses until the cleaned bones fell from the cross. Sometimes, though, when the crosses needed to be reused, the disintegrating bodies were removed and hauled to the city's garbage dump, where they were deposited without ceremony, dignity, respect, or family witnesses.
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Old 04-14-2005, 10:18 AM   #83
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Case for Christ is a creative, well-written contribution to Christian apologetics. Moreover, Strobel is to be commended for summarizing the work of so many leading apologists for Evangelical Christianity in such a compact and easy-to-read format. Yet Strobel did not interview any critics of Evangelical apologetics. He sometimes refutes at great length objections not made by the critics (e.g., the claim that Jesus was mentally insane); more often, he doesn't address objections the critics do make (e.g., the unreliability of human memory, that non-Christian historians do not provide any independent confirmation for the deity of Jesus, etc.) Perhaps this will be a welcome feature to people who already believe Christianity but have no idea why they believe it. For those of us who are primarily interested in the truth, however, we want to hear both sides of the story.

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...r/strobel.html
So you haven't read it yourself and arrived at your own conclusion? Yes, Strobel interviewed Christian theologians and historians, but he did it as an atheist. He was a reporter with the Chicago Tribune who set out to disprove Christ and his claims and he used his journalism techniques in doing so. In this book he acted as the critic of Evangelical apologetics that your little review here claims was missing from the book.

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28 a.d. or so...4-6 b.c. or so...
What's your point here? The exact year maybe isn't known, but that doesn't mean Christ didn't exist. Is that what you're getting at? Even nonChristian historians would find that claim laughable.


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i watched a special on the flood this past summer and it did a very good job of debunking the notion of a worldwide flood scientifically while also tracing the lineage of the flood story back through the babylonian exile to the epic of gilgamesh.
It's no secret that flood stories have been found in places all over the world — America, Great Britain, India, China, Tibet, Kashmir, Polynesia, Greece and Australia. Almost all races have a tradition of a major catastrophe very similar to the Genesis account. Since all races descended from the sons of Noah, it should come as no surprise that they handed the same story to their children.
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Old 04-14-2005, 10:23 AM   #84
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Coemgen, you're doing a great job so far. And Irv, I also liked your last two posts.
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Old 04-14-2005, 04:25 PM   #85
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It's no secret that flood stories have been found in places all over the world — America, Great Britain, India, China, Tibet, Kashmir, Polynesia, Greece and Australia. Almost all races have a tradition of a major catastrophe very similar to the Genesis account. Since all races descended from the sons of Noah, it should come as no surprise that they handed the same story to their children.
There's no evidence of a "global flood" at all, and there should be geologic evidence of it. Alas, and unsurprisingly, there isn't. I'd have loved to see Noah try to collect polar bears and penguins, along with all the freshwater species of sea life that would have been immediately killed with a global deluge of salt water. Or how about all the "New World" species, considering the "New World" wasn't even "discovered" by the "Old World" until 1492 (ignoring the brief interlude with the Vikings 400 years prior).

And where did that water go? After all, the water we have today is all the water we've had for the entire history of the planet, so if we had a large deluge of water, it would not simply have "disappeared." It would have to have collected somewhere, and the icecaps don't hold enough water make up for that flood.

There is, however, evidence that the Black Sea was created 5000 years ago with a sudden and quick breach of the Mediterranean Sea, flooding hundreds of miles permanently with 500 feet of water in a very short period of time. There was such a thing as "trade" back then, so it is conceivable that such a horrific story would travel globally, and, of course, be distorted into "flood myths."

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Old 04-14-2005, 04:32 PM   #86
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Originally posted by coemgen

Since all races descended from the sons of Noah, it should come as no surprise that they handed the same story to their children.
Was Noah African? The reason I ask is, anthropologists believe, actually are pretty confident, that the first humans emerged in that continent.
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Old 04-14-2005, 04:56 PM   #87
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Ever had this thought?

Three races of humans

*and all of us inbetween and tossed about*

Three expressions within the Trinity


No scripture to support, but the thought is interesting.
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Old 04-14-2005, 05:03 PM   #88
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Three races of humans
Black, white, "orientals" (Chinese/Japanese/Korean), Indians (from India), Native Americans, "Arabs" (Middle Easterners), and Pacific Islanders, to keep it simple. That's more than three.

Hispanics are a race created from white and Native Americans and "purified" through 500 years of breeding. Chances are, that's where all the races came from: mixing, combined with geographic isolation.

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Old 04-14-2005, 08:25 PM   #89
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So you haven't read it yourself and arrived at your own conclusion? Yes, Strobel interviewed Christian theologians and historians, but he did it as an atheist. He was a reporter with the Chicago Tribune who set out to disprove Christ and his claims and he used his journalism techniques in doing so. In this book he acted as the critic of Evangelical apologetics that your little review here claims was missing from the book.


YOU GOT ME!!! i haven't read it, obviously. i wanted to read a review of it however, and this is what i found. it seemed like a fair summary so i posted it. before i even read it, i have to wonder, if this is some amazing work of proof that jesus did indeed exist AND was also the divine son of god...why doesn't anyone care? why aren't biblical historians shouting from the rooftops that they have proof of jesus and his divinity? how is a reporter from the chicago tribune in any way qualified to critique christian apologetics? "oh, so you have a counter argument to the belief that jesus wasn't divine? well he must be divine."


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What's your point here? The exact year maybe isn't known, but that doesn't mean Christ didn't exist. Is that what you're getting at? Even nonChristian historians would find that claim laughable.
silly coemgen. you know what assumptions do to you and i, don't you?

my point is that there is no hard proof. no facts.

i don't doubt that jesus existed. why should i? i just doubt the representation of his life in the n.t.



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It's no secret that flood stories have been found in places all over the world — America, Great Britain, India, China, Tibet, Kashmir, Polynesia, Greece and Australia. Almost all races have a tradition of a major catastrophe very similar to the Genesis account. Since all races descended from the sons of Noah, it should come as no surprise that they handed the same story to their children.
actually it is surprising since there is no scientific eidence to support any of this. and as someone else mentioned, scientific evidence DOES suggest that the human race originated in africa.
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Old 04-14-2005, 08:28 PM   #90
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Originally posted by melon


And where did that water go? After all, the water we have today is all the water we've had for the entire history of the planet, so if we had a large deluge of water, it would not simply have "disappeared." It would have to have collected somewhere, and the icecaps don't hold enough water make up for that flood.
if you would have read the link the coemgen provided containing an explanation of the flood story, you would know that the world used to be relatively flat and that after the flood, god summoned the ocean basins into existance to collect all of the surface water. duh.
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