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Old 07-15-2002, 11:09 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by sulawesigirl4


umm, now honestly. Do you really truly think this attack on one "group" was called for? Quite frankly, I have seen my share of both conservative and liberal posters stooping to low levels, and singling out the opposite "side" (as you are doing in this case) simply shows your inability to rise above partisanship.
I really don't consider this an "attack" Sula. I really don't. From my perspective I'm simply calling it as I see it. With very few exceptions, those conservatives who frequently comment in this forum are truly arrogant and pretentious. I sincerely believe this. Granted, we are probably only talking about 7-10 members (and I suspect it may be fewer than this if multiple user names are considered) but the facts speak for themselves. More often than not, the moderate-liberal members of this forum are polite and remain above the fray. I believe this can be verified. If time permitted, I could run out countless examples of some prominent conservative forum members acting like spoiled little brats...the "I'm taking my ball home" mentality. I would be hard pressed to find many liberal forum members who resort to such actions.

I'm not suggessting this sort of "punch/counterpunch" doesn't occur on both sides...it is just far more rampant in the conservative ranks of this forum and it truly does mirror the majority of the Republicans in Congress...those "compasssionate" conservatives who are always touting the virtures of Christianity yet routinely forget the teachings of the very Savior whose name they routinely invoke. Extremely hypocritical.

As far as my "inability to rise above partisianship" goes...I've never been interested in rising above it. I hold strong convictions on the progressive left of the political spectrum (you know this)and make no apologies about this to any one. It's unlikely any rightwinger will change my mind...and vice versa. In fact, with exceptions, the majority of forum members who routinely comment in this forum are unabashedly partisian...and I have no problem with this. Partisianship really isn't the issue here...personal conduct is...and I feel that this clearly is a problem more prevalent with the rightwingers here than the left.

Maybe this is just all a case of a few bad apples leaving a blemish on the majority who know how to actually debate an issue and discuss ideas in an adult, civil manner. (Sula-you are gifted at this and I commend you for it!) But frankly, it sickens me that there are some here who cannot seem to resist the urge to take the focus off the discussion of ideas and issues and lead us down a path littered with sarcastic, preposterous remarks whose only intent is self-gratification. Reread a couple of comments before this one to see what I'm getting at. Is this what "Free Your Mind" is really all about? I think not.

I believe that some members here are less interested in talking about the subject matter and more interested in how many "points' they can score with their conservative bretheran, i.e. who can come up with the best one-liner of the night. Any respect I had for them is out the window...doesn't matter if the comment was directed at me or another forum member. Just gives me a little inkling into the type of individual they are.

Back to Salome's original question about "Free Your Mind". It is by and large a great forum to visit...with the exception of a few bad apples who lack the appropriate social skills necessary for a lively, engaging, and yes...."civil" debate...null and void of those sarcastic comments that only serve to pump up their "manly egos".
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Old 07-15-2002, 11:10 PM   #32
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<-------

Quote:
Originally posted by U2Bama
That scared me; I was afraid you were going to tell me "we are going to soon be compiling an actual list of Free Your Mind interferencers who should be deleted."
probably already been done
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Old 07-16-2002, 12:34 AM   #33
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To me, "free your mind" means giving up any and all preconceived notions, looking at each situation independently, and coming to a conclusion based on what you see and think and feel. You can't come up with an honest opinion without emotion in some cases, contrary to what some people think. *That's* a preconceived notion! If you had Belief X five minutes prior to getting yourself in a situation you may have to give up Belief X to make sense out of it. It might be too constraining and screw up your judgment. The idea is to not constrain yourself.
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Old 07-16-2002, 12:07 PM   #34
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thanks to eveyone who gave their opinion on this subject

as Sicy said, a list of rulles for FYM is being compiled

so also a "thank you" to those who have proven we need a special set of rules in here (however childish more rules may seem)
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Old 07-16-2002, 12:25 PM   #35
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Salome,

without reading the whole thread...Ill take the risk to answer...maybe

Emancipate yourself from mental slavery???

Okay, back to the shadows follower
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Old 07-16-2002, 01:33 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by Like someone to blame
I really don't consider this an "attack" Sula. I really don't. From my perspective I'm simply calling it as I see it. With very few exceptions, those conservatives who frequently comment in this forum are truly arrogant and pretentious. I sincerely believe this. Granted, we are probably only talking about 7-10 members (and I suspect it may be fewer than this if multiple user names are considered) but the facts speak for themselves. More often than not, the moderate-liberal members of this forum are polite and remain above the fray. I believe this can be verified. If time permitted, I could run out countless examples of some prominent conservative forum members acting like spoiled little brats...the "I'm taking my ball home" mentality. I would be hard pressed to find many liberal forum members who resort to such actions.

I'm not suggessting this sort of "punch/counterpunch" doesn't occur on both sides...it is just far more rampant in the conservative ranks of this forum and it truly does mirror the majority of the Republicans in Congress...those "compasssionate" conservatives who are always touting the virtures of Christianity yet routinely forget the teachings of the very Savior whose name they routinely invoke. Extremely hypocritical.
Wow. Looks like somebody's hiding behind his internet persona as an excuse to launch attacks against those who disagree with him.

Good thing you're not a conservative!

Look:

You berate conservatives for making personal attacks.

You then personally attack conservatives, calling them hypocrites and betrayers of their faith - arrogant and pretentious "brats" - while claiming to NOT making an attack.

That makes YOU a hypocrite and a liar - and not very good at either.


(The NERVE! How the hell can you simultaneously call us hypocritical brats AND claim to be "above the fray"?)


I can speak for no one else, but I admit that I am not the most consistent Christian on planet Earth - that I let my temper get the best of me, and that that temper is occasionally tied to my own personal pride rather than an upholding of the truth.

But that, first of all, does not make Christianity itself wrong. I know you weren't suggesting that, but I want to make clear to non-believers that the disharmony between Christian teachings and my life are evidence of MY short-comings, not Christianity.

Second, even if I should hold my tongue on some comments, that does not make the comments I make any less TRUE. Some of the things said here ARE idiotic: the assertions that the Pledge of Allegiance is "clearly" unconstititutional, that George Washington was as bad (or worse) as Yassir Arafat, and that the liberals in this forum are "polite and above the fray" come immediately to mind.

(And, generally speaking, I try to be as precise as possible in my "name-calling." If I call someone ignorant, I usually mean in the literal sense - that they do not know what they are talking about.)

There are certain beliefs that can certainly be impugned here, beliefs that SHOULD be blasted to kingdom come, such as the belief that one race is inherently superior to another or that the Holocaust never happened. Why shouldn't we be free to blast other idiotic ideas that happen to come from the extreme left?

And while we're on the subject of Christianity, Jesus Christ Himself called people hypocrites, thieves, fools, and vipers.

How was this possible? How could the perfect Messiah call people names? Well, Christians believe Christ exhibited righteous anger, the "wrath of God" that is angered at things people SHOULD get angry about.

Certainly, we Christians must be VERY careful to allow only righteous anger into our hearts - to discern between affronts to our own pride and affronts to TRUTH. But anger in itself is not always a bad thing.

Bubba


PS - I actually go by "Bubba" in real life, and I never use other identities in this forum; there is very little hiding behind internet personas on the part of THIS angry conservative.

How 'bout you?


PPS - Salome, a list of rules is a commendable idea, but I ask for two things:

1) The ability to continue to call things as they are. If a comment is racist, misinformed or anti-American, we should have the freedom to call it such.

2) Equal application of whatever rules are made. If conservatives are to be asked not to call others idiots, liberals MUST be asked to not call us hypocrites, fascists, etc.
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Old 07-16-2002, 02:40 PM   #37
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Well, Bubba, in true conservative fashion you managed to personally insult me 3 -4 times in your diatribe. Do you feel better now?

I personally DO remain above the fray because I choose not to personally insult your viewpoints...oh, I disagree with them most vigorously but I am confident in stating that I don't call other forum members "idiots" or other choice words simply because I don't agree with them. I admit to using language in some of my posts that may incite an angry response...but I refrain from personally attacking the other member in rebuttal. Nothing is gained from such actions. It is this notion of "personal attacks" that angers me most about some of the conservative members here. Look, I've nothing against anyone expressing their views here and of course there are going to be occasions where the passion one feels on an issue interjects itself into the dialogue but I simply have no use for the self-serving comments that are intended to illicit nothing more than a jolly good laugh from the posters' "buddies" in the forum.

Let me address your remarks about Christianity: Your post suggests that I am somehow a non-believer. This couldn't be further from the truth. In fact, I was saved (born again) at the age of 8 in the church that at the time was being pastored by (coincidentally) our very own forum member Spiral Staircase's father, Pastor Joe. This was an evangelical/baptist church. I'm now 30...and the Lord and my Christian beliefs are more important to me now than ever. My father is an elder in the church we attend now...an evangelical free church and needless to say I was raised in a wonderful Christian home...brought up on Biblical principles...the whole nine yards. I just find it laughable that there is this perception that if you are "saved" that somehow you are automatically lumped into the conservative right movement. To take it further...the perception exists that you are somehow "less" of a Christian or "not truly a believer" if you somehow disagree with the conservative right's agenda. My point is that these Christian conservatives routinely invoke our Savior's name...yet routinely embarrass it. As if "God is a Republican" or something crazy like that.

In many respects, while a self-described progressive liberal (and I'm not ashamed of this) I'm more conservative on the issue of separation of church/state than most conservatives. I truly believe the framers intended the two should not be merged...yet everyday conservatives in this country are blurring the lines between church and state...I am a strick separatist on this issue...I don't enjoy it when my pastor invokes his conservative political beliefs during his sermons...the pulpit is not the place for it. Nor is it appropriate in my opinion for a pastor who holds liberal beliefs to do the same. In any case...I thought you may be interested in this....

I don't advocate you or any other member from holding their tongue in a debate...just keep things on the up and up is all I ask. Inflammatory remarks will undoubtedly occur...as long as they are not personal I have no problem with them...I really don't.

As far as "hiding" behind the very internet persona I criticize...I mean, all of us here do that to varying degrees...it's just part of being "connected" on the web. A clearer explanation of this may be that I just feel that it is easy to launch personal attacks in this format...much more difficult in person, face to face or in a room filled with casual observers. So to this extent, yes, I feel that some members here utilize the "behind the scenes" nature of the internet to take personal pot shots at others. I could tell you my "real" world name...but what difference/importance is that to you in the big picture? Short of providing you with my personal data sheet, an 8x12 photo, and inviting you to my next church supper you can argue that I'm still "hiding". I personally don't think I'm guilty of hiding...I've attended multiple U2 concerts...met a number of fellow forum members there...maintain e-mail contact with many...etc etc. Everyone that reads this forum knows where I stand on most of the issues (to the left) and understands that while I may engage in some pretty heavy rhetoric and hyperbole from time to time I generally avoid sarcastic remarks and the like. Not trying to say I'm better than anyone else...just trying to let you know that people here know more about me than you may think and that short of taking the steps I mentioned earlier I'm not sure how more "open" I could be.

Bubba, you are a worthy adversary on the other side of the issues...much like diamond and some of the others. I have no personal hatred towards you...I don't always like the manner and tone in which you respond to differing viewpoints...but I'm sure you don't always like mine either. You have demonstrated an ability to articulate on your thoughts here and I genuinely enjoy reading your comments because they are a)well thought out and b) passionate. Your thoughts are flawed in my opinion...but it doesn't make you an idiot. It just makes you wrong

Rob
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Old 07-16-2002, 02:46 PM   #38
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See.
Now thats the tone.
See how nice Robbie plays
Oops I meant Rob.
Hoo
Hah-
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Old 07-16-2002, 02:59 PM   #39
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bubba and like.. calm please.

Quote:
Originally posted by Salome
as Sicy said, a list of rulles for FYM is being compiled
The rules will be for all forums.
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Old 07-16-2002, 03:09 PM   #40
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Rob, you do NOT remain "above the fray." In that one post, you launched the following attacks (insults in red):

With very few exceptions, those conservatives who frequently comment in this forum are truly arrogant and pretentious.

If time permitted, I could run out countless examples of some prominent conservative forum members acting like spoiled little brats...the "I'm taking my ball home" mentality.


You then said we were "extremely hypocritical" and that we "litter" our posts with "sarcastic, preposterous remarks whose only intent is self-gratification." True, you never used the actual term "idiot," but those comments are AT LEAST as insulting.
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Old 07-16-2002, 03:28 PM   #41
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Big Grin hoo haaaaa

Quote:
Originally posted by diamond
Display your ignorance
Soooo true.

For me, I would see it as a place to find a good argument between Bubba and Melon with no point other than to argue.

A place to catch up on the latest Douchetastic stuff from Lemonite.

And, a place to read humor-filled reposnses from Bama (still one of the best posters on Interference.)
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Old 07-16-2002, 03:36 PM   #42
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Bubba:

I don't consider those statements to be "personal" in nature, i.e. I didn't attach a specific conservative member's name to the statements or suggest they were somehow ignorant...which IMHO makes it personal. I was speaking more to the fact that I felt the tone of their posts were arrogant and pretentious and that their responses mirrored those of "spoiled little brats".

I do believe that some posts are littered with "sarcastic" remarks whose only intent is "self-gratification". Was I a little heavy on the hyperbole? Admittedly so.

Most people like scoring points in favor of their views in any debate...you and I are no different. I've read your posts for many months now...you have the ability to score points based on the merits of the argument without needlessly having to get involved in the "attack dog" mentality that I believe is so prevalent here. You are a fierce competitor and I like that about you, Bubba-I just don't think you (or I or others) need to resort to making some of the remarks that you (and I or others) do to get our respective points across.

I can see how these statements may be construed as personal in nature, however, and I sincerely apologize to you if you felt that way. I will pledge to refrain from such over-the-top statements in the future...as long as we all understand that I'm not cowering from my beliefs...let's just say I'll try to be more "tactful" and "diplomatic"and dare I say "polite"...which really is all I've wanted some of the conservative members here to embark upon as well.

Rob
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Old 07-16-2002, 04:02 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by follower


Emancipate yourself from mental slavery???

follower, this is the best thing I've read in FYM since...well, maybe ever
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Old 07-16-2002, 04:33 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally posted by Like someone to blame
...but I refrain from personally attacking the other member in rebuttal. Nothing is gained from such actions. It is this notion of "personal attacks" that angers me most about some of the conservative members here. Look, I've nothing against anyone expressing their views here and of course there are going to be occasions where the passion one feels on an issue interjects itself into the dialogue but I simply have no use for the self-serving comments that are intended to illicit nothing more than a jolly good laugh from the posters' "buddies" in the forum.

I have issues with your post here. Your attacks on me yesterday and today are only because I silenced you on a different issue. You are carrying this over and around the forum and it need to cease.

Also you made personal attacks against me to which I provide proof:

stay tuned
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Old 07-16-2002, 04:34 PM   #45
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For The Record-
Once Robbie called me a fathead, but then he called me beloved in the same sentence.
So i was ok w that
But it was not in FYM.
It was about the Bos DVD,
Ok
goodbye-
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