What, besides War, would have stopped these monsters? - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-05-2003, 08:48 AM   #1
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 03:29 AM
What, besides War, would have stopped these monsters?

If you can read the following report, and other things that have been posted, and not say that Saddam's evil regime had to end, I don't understand. If you do think his regime had to end, but not with war, I'll have to ask what you would suggest. Don't tell me any of the following 3, because we've tried them and they don't work:

1)Assassination
2)Sanctions
3)Coup from the inside

Report: British Troops Find Makeshift Morgue in Southern Iraq

Saturday, April 05, 2003

British forces say they have found boxes containing hundreds of human remains in a warehouse in southern Iraq.

Britain's Press Association quotes a British military official as saying it appears the people had been dead for several years.

Associated Press Television video showed the boxes stacked five high on one side of the warehouse near Az Zubayr, and other boxes were lined up on the other side.

The video showed one skull which was missing front teeth and had a large hole in the nasal area. A British soldier held up folders containing lists written in Arabic.

Press Association reporter Vanessa Allen says British troops also discovered a catalogue of photographs of the dead. She says the photos indicated some had been shot in the head.
__________________

__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 09:21 AM   #2
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 01:29 AM

Mr 80s-
I hear you.

I dont get the protesters who usually scream for their own civil rights but ignore the need for Iraqi Human Rights.


Oh I forgot, its all about the oil
Yeah right.


DB9
__________________

__________________
diamond is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 09:28 AM   #3
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Tempe, Az USA
Posts: 12,856
Local Time: 01:29 AM
Heres a related article-




OPERATION: IRAQI FREEDOM
Saddam's 'gruesome'
Kuwaiti war crimes
Power drills, axes used at a dozen
'torture sites' during prior conflict

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: April 5, 2003
1:00 a.m. Eastern


By Paul Sperry


WASHINGTON -- When it comes to war crimes, Saddam Hussein's reputation precedes him.

In the last Gulf war, the Iraqi dictator racked up 16 violations of the law of war under the Hague and Geneva conventions, according to an unclassified report written by Pentagon lawyers in 1992.

Some of them involved "gruesome" tortures by amputation, electric shock, electric drills, acid baths, rape, forced self-cannibalism, dismemberment and ax beatings, according to the "Report on Iraqi War Crimes: Desert Shield/Desert Storm," a copy of which was obtained by WorldNetDaily. (Editor's note: This is a large .pdf file; Adobe Acrobat required.)

U.S. officials say Saddam and his henchmen in the current war are on a path to break their old war-crimes record. So far, Iraqi troops and irregulars loyal to Saddam have, among other things:


Abused the flag of truce by pretending to surrender and then firing on U.S. Marines.

Executed and likely tortured U.S. prisoners of war.

Disguised themselves as civilians, then fired on U.S. troops.
And more atrocities are anticipated as U.S. forces enter Baghdad.

The November 1992 Pentagon report accused Iraqi troops of systematically carrying out grisly acts of torture against Kuwaiti citizens "with the approval of the national leadership in Iraq."

"The evidence establishes that there were at least two dozen torture sites in Kuwait City, most of which were located in either police stations or sports facilities," the report said. "The gruesome evidence confirms torture by amputation of or injury to various body parts, to include limbs, eyes, tongues, ears, noses, lips and genitalia.

"Electric shock was applied to sensitive parts of the body (nose, mouth, genitalia)," the report said. "Electric drills were used to penetrate the chest, leg(s) or arm(s) of victims."

Invading Iraqi soldiers also allegedly beat Kuwaiti civilians, crushing bones, skulls and disfiguring their faces, according to the catalog of abuses. Some victims were soaked in acid. Others were beaten while suspended from ceilings. Axes were allegedly used in some beatings.

"Women taken hostage were raped repeatedly," the report added.

But it gets worse: "Eyewitnesses reported Iraqis torturing a woman by making her eat her own flesh as it was cut from her body," the report said.

Some of the Kuwaiti accounts have since been challenged as exaggerations designed to whip up international sympathy for their cause.

The findings of war crimes were a result of evidence collected by the Army's 199th Judge Advocate Detachment in St. Petersburg, Fla., the 208th Judge Advocate Reserve Detachment here in Washington, and the Defense Intelligence Agency's Document Examination Center in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia.

According to the report, that evidence included: U.S. documents, captured Iraqi documents, videotaped and written statements of eyewitnesses to war crimes, prisoners of war, "human shields," Kuwaiti victims, and graphic videotape and still photos of war crimes.

Here is the carnage by numbers, according to the report:


A total of 1,082 Kuwaiti civilians were killed.

Some 120 babies "were left to die after being removed from incubators that were taken to Iraq."

More than 150 children between the ages of one and 13 were killed "for various reasons."

Fifty-seven mentally ill individuals were killed "simply because of their handicap."
Among U.S. military personnel, 21 individuals were captured and held as prisoners of war by Iraq.

"All of the prisoners of war were the victims of war crimes committed by Iraq," the report said.

Interestingly, U.S. military investigators found no evidence Iraq used chemical weapons against U.S. forces or Kuwaitis, although they established that it "intended to use" them.

The first Bush administration had refused to declassify the document reportedly because it worried it would hurt former President Bush's reelection bid by underscoring his failure to drive Saddam from power.

The Clinton administration finally released the report in March 1993.
__________________
diamond is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 10:15 AM   #4
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 08:29 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by diamond

I dont get the protesters who usually scream for their own civil rights but ignore the need for Iraqi Human Rights.
We don't. That's why the slogan is "No to war, No to Saddam" (please see my signature...). The reason I oppose this war is that it is not a war for liberation and it is not a war to bring democracy or human rights to Iraq. I don't believe you give people human rights by murdering them.

As for protestors demanding their own civil rights: when I see my friends hit with police batons for no reason, when I see police officers scream in my friends face that they're "wasting our ****ing time", when I see police arrest two fifteen year old Asian boys for no reason other than to intimidate the rest of the protestors, you bet I'll be complaining about the violations of protestors' civil rights.

(edited for typos)
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 10:48 AM   #5
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: full of sound and fury
Posts: 3,386
Local Time: 09:29 PM
"The reason I oppose this war is that it is not a war for liberation and it is not a war to bring democracy or human rights to Iraq. I don't believe you give people human rights by murdering them." Well said, FizzingWhizzbees. That report is disgusting . Even so, by the way, to this day I am still amazed at how we keep talking about Saddam and not Al Qaeda... I just don't understand how easily distracted Americans seem to be? How come I rarely see Osama/Al Qaeda's name on anti-war banners? There doesn't seem to be any more push to get 'those guys' who wronged you. It's all become more of a Bush-and-Blair mudslinging exercise.

foray
__________________
foray is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 11:24 AM   #6
Kid A
 
The Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Holy Roman Empire
Posts: 5,271
Local Time: 03:29 AM
what makes you think the government has forgotten about al Qeada? much of the infrastructure has been decimated and the organization is under seige, it's more of a silent war.

the statement about giving people human rights by murdering them is convenient I guess, but is it really accurate? there's no perfect solution. people suffer either way, maybe the short term suffering will end the long term suffering? let's hope because that's the path that was chosen.
__________________
send lawyers, guns and money...
The Wanderer is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 11:35 AM   #7
ONE
love, blood, life
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 10,881
Local Time: 03:29 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by FizzingWhizzbees


The reason I oppose this war is that it is not a war for liberation and it is not a war to bring democracy or human rights to Iraq. I don't believe you give people human rights by murdering them.

Well, then you say what you think the war is not about.....What is it about then?

I don't believe it either, and it is a good thing the coalition is not murdering anyone because we would be doomed to failure.
__________________
Dreadsox is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 11:49 AM   #8
Refugee
 
Klaus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: on a one of these small green spots at that blue planet at the end of the milky way
Posts: 2,432
Local Time: 09:29 AM
1. Different embargo than in the past
JUST a weapon embargo (no embargo against eggs (because the leader of the UN command disslikes them because they are imported from the wrong country)
2. the UN should provice food and medicine to the people directly, not through the iraqi government
3. un patrols at all iraqi borders (especially to the borders of the US alies who smuggled most of the weapons inside the iraq)
4.UN weapon inspections (which get access to all secret service documents of the UN members and not the other way around)
5. UN humanitarian inspections(which get access to all secret service documents of the UN members and not the other way around)
6. Free press (funded by the UN)
7. free elections ensured by UN
8. warcriminals who had or are still violating international laws in this conflict should be sent to the ICC to show the arabic world that we are not taking revenge but care about justice (and not only for our enemies)

There are things that work out better than war:



Klaus

p.s. diamond:
thanks for the "great" contribution to the topic of this thread
just to the 120 babies: afik this thing turned out to be pure propaganda according to the post-irakIwar-press
__________________
Klaus is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 01:05 PM   #9
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 08:29 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Well, then you say what you think the war is not about.....What is it about then?
It's about who has control over and dominance of the Middle East region. It's about who controls the second largest oil reserves in the world. It's about the United States asserting itself as the dominant power in the world and reminding other countries of its military power.

I realise a lot of people disagree with this analysis of the war, and I'm sure I'll get a lot accusations of "anti-americanism" or "wanting 'our' troops to be killed in Iraq" and probably "supporting Saddam" for making those suggestions. However, you did ask why I think this war is being fought and so I've answered honestly.

I'd suggest people have a look at some of the articles on the website of Project for the New American Century (www.newamericancentury.org) where you can see that plans for this war began long before September 11th and long before Bush came to power. Note how many contributors to PNAC are now working for, or have worked for the Bush adminstration: Perle, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld... There are even articles entitled "How to Attack Iraq" as well as suggestions that containment is not a desirable strategy with regards to Iraq, regardless of whether it is an effective strategy or not.

And finally, if this were a war for democracy and human rights then one would expect the US to be at least a little consistent in its support for human rights: for instance, handing Israel billions of dollars each year when it continues to oppress the Palestinians and violate numerous UN resolutions, seems to go against this commitment to human rights. Similarly, the US seems unconcerned that Kuwait is a dictatorship, and continues to support Saudi Arabia despite that nation's appalling human rights record, neither of which are actions which suggest a huge concern for democracy.
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 01:06 PM   #10
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 08:29 AM
Klaus, @ that picture. Some people in the Stop the War group at my college proposed that we hold a 'kiss-a-thon' against the war. Needless to say the idea didn't gain a huge amount of support...
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 01:08 PM   #11
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 03:29 AM
Klaus, those are fine and noble ideas, but as soon as you start to implement #2,3, 6,7 and 8, there will be war anyway, because Saddam wouldn't just sit by and let people (UN or not) do these things on Iraqi soil. He would send forces and suicide bombers against them.
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 01:12 PM   #12
Kid A
 
The Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Holy Roman Empire
Posts: 5,271
Local Time: 03:29 AM
haha, free elections!
__________________
send lawyers, guns and money...
The Wanderer is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 01:16 PM   #13
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
80sU2isBest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 4,970
Local Time: 03:29 AM
FizzingWhizzbees,
I do not think you are correct about what this war is about. I think you don't know Bush's character very well, honestly. However, even if you are correct, do you think that Saddam shouldn't be overthrown because the Coalition's intentions supposedly "aren't right"? Even if we are doing it "for oil" (which we aren't), the Coalition is conducting itself in an honorable and compassionate manner, taking careful steps to avoid civilian casualties as much as possible, and an evil Regime is going down. How can that be a bad thing?
__________________
80sU2isBest is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 01:17 PM   #14
ONE
love, blood, life
 
FizzingWhizzbees's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: the choirgirl hotel
Posts: 12,614
Local Time: 08:29 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
Klaus, those are fine and noble ideas, but as soon as you start to implement #2,3, 6,7 and 8, there will be war anyway, because Saddam wouldn't just sit by and let people (UN or not) do these things on Iraqi soil. He would send forces and suicide bombers against them.
And had Klaus posted those suggestions a year ago, you'd have claimed that #4 (the weapons inspectors) was entirely unfeasible for the same reason....
__________________
FizzingWhizzbees is offline  
Old 04-05-2003, 01:23 PM   #15
Kid A
 
The Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Holy Roman Empire
Posts: 5,271
Local Time: 03:29 AM
so tell us, fizzing, that you think those things would happen!
__________________

__________________
send lawyers, guns and money...
The Wanderer is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com