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Old 10-25-2005, 10:40 PM   #31
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Are you saying there's nothing good in religion, or are you saying that hopefully religion would not be an arguing point in this issue?
i'm saying that if people could live for so long at their peak, as irvine alluded to, then hopefully mankind could eventually let go of its need for religion because of scientific, historical, and philosophical advancements by those intellectuals suspended at the apex of their abilities. wow long sentence.
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Old 10-25-2005, 10:50 PM   #32
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The current economic model seems to have buried everything else, I think that odds on we are not going to be seeing a great upheaval away from the free market. These treatments like most cutting edge medical tech would cost a lot of money, it would be fanciful to announce that when invented everybody in the world would have access to them because time and time again with this stuff it is only available to those that can pay before it becomes widespread.

And I think that there is a trepidation of sorts towards such advances, if anything the first post-humans may be greeted with fear, how many people would willingly have their head grafted onto a new cloned headless body or have organs and limbs replaced with robotics to create a cyborg.

The "I think" qualifier is also a very efficient way of indicating speculation and not explicit fact.
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Old 10-25-2005, 10:54 PM   #33
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Originally posted by Se7en

i'm saying that if people could live for so long at their peak, as irvine alluded to, then hopefully mankind could eventually let go of its need for religion because of scientific, historical, and philosophical advancements by those intellectuals suspended at the apex of their abilities. wow long sentence.
So you see atheism as a form of progress for humanity?
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Old 10-25-2005, 11:07 PM   #34
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For a benchmark I would like to be alive to see the technological singularity.
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Old 10-25-2005, 11:45 PM   #35
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No we would not, firstly only the super rich could ever afford these treatments and secondly why have children too "live forever" if you actually can.

Is the creativity and the ingenuity of a single human being infinite? Is the bigotry of an individual permanent? Do new generations lead to progress because personalities and cultural traditions are so deeply ingrained within an individual that by default you do need a new generation to replace that old line of thought?

We could have had Michaelangelo live forever, but at the expense of not having a Monet or a Picasso.

There is individual worth and an individual contribution to be made by every human being, and you cannot absorb the losses by keeping a stagnant population alive.

I think life is cyclical. There is no need for me to live forever. I would ask for 75 good years, after that, it's time for a new generation and their new vision.
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Old 10-25-2005, 11:47 PM   #36
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So you see atheism as a form of progress for humanity?
for me it would at least be agnosticism. i don't think it's possible to say anything for sure in either direction.
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Old 10-25-2005, 11:55 PM   #37
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Is the creativity and the ingenuity of a single human being infinite? Is the bigotry of an individual permanent? Do new generations lead to progress because personalities and cultural traditions are so deeply ingrained within an individual that by default you do need a new generation to replace that old line of thought?

We could have had Michaelangelo live forever, but at the expense of not having a Monet or a Picasso.

There is individual worth and an individual contribution to be made by every human being, and you cannot absorb the losses by keeping a stagnant population alive.
Would that population truly be stagnant? We have never ever had a static state of humanity, you grow up - hit your peak and then decline for a few decades, that is the way that it works, why is this ~ mortality. Our function declines over time, but given hypothetical singularity point advances where you had a state of being where you were not only alive but augmented to a point where you performed better than you could otherwise why should there be a limit for your individual growth or investigation, if such a point existed then why couldn't somebody just end it there, at the point that they desired.

Any individual who lived for centuries would see tremendous change in their time, I do not think that it would be an avenue for sentimentalists.
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Old 10-26-2005, 12:09 AM   #38
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I don't believe artistic achievements - be they in the classical arts, theatre, music, literature, can be looked at so mathematically. I don't believe people would evolve in the way you suggest. Furthermore, it is human experience which dictates a lot of this type of achievement. You are a child once, then you are a child no more. You cannot see the world in the same way ever again. And if you have no children coming after you, you will lose that experience, and the contribution that arises from it.

The biggest argument to be had here, however, is whether or not you believe death is the end. For people who do not believe life ceases at death, there is little to no incentive to living forever. Whether you feel that you will be liberated after this death, or be reborn, or your soul reunited with your God, the fact is, death becomes just a step on your journey and not a final destination.

As a final point, I think humanity is too fucked up and most certainly too stupid to be allowed to live perpetually.
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Old 10-26-2005, 12:21 AM   #39
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The existence of old masters would not stifle new blood. Over time societies change, new styles and fashions become adopted, why would there be demand for the same old when there would still be innovation and change. What expression and form is there to be crafted by an individual who has moved beyond physical form?

If such technology arose nobody could have it forced upon them, they must have a choice. Reproductive choice must exist too, there is no reason that people should be banned from procreating or be limited.

The concept of afterlife is one reason why I do not think that the tech would be adopted for perpetual life by many, who knows maybe people could choose to end their life and download their minds to that great big computer database downtown.
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Old 10-26-2005, 12:25 AM   #40
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If such technology arose nobody have it forced upon them, they must have a choice. Reproductive choice must exist too, there is no reason that people should be banned from procreating or be limited.
Of course you need to limit it because if everyone were allowed the right to reproduce and everyone was also able to live infinitely, the planet could not support such a population.

Which means arbitrarily restricting growth.
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Old 10-26-2005, 12:33 AM   #41
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Of course you need to limit it because if everyone were allowed the right to reproduce and everyone was also able to live infinitely, the planet could not support such a population.

Which means arbitrarily restricting growth.
Everyone is not able to live infinitely, most people would not afford those technologies, population in developed countries as I said is already on the decline, if over time living standards globally increased would we not see a similar trend? Improvements in hygene and education ~ increased demand for resources per capita but decreased populations. If the planet had a population of one billion humans of which there was a small percentage who had the choice to live or a long time it could be sustained.

And there is a plausible scenerio of interplanetary and even interstellar settlement in the distant future if technological innovation reaches its singularity.
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Old 10-26-2005, 01:50 AM   #42
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fuck all that. i have to wait another 38 years still, til i can retire. i dont want that to be 138 or more. 80 odd years is a good run. i'd be pleased to have a healthy + happy time, not a long time.
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Old 10-26-2005, 02:32 AM   #43
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I think awanderer hit the nail on the head. this wondrous technology isn't for everyone. not by a long shot. breeding a master race? No thanks.
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Old 10-26-2005, 02:36 AM   #44
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and that is 32 years* not 38. old age is killing me.

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