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Old 09-03-2004, 10:30 AM   #76
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Originally posted by STING2
Your analogy fails because no one has come back saying their done yet.
As does yours because one cannot prove a negative.


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Originally posted by STING2
It does appreciate the scale of the task involved. Its a bit like if you were changing a tire and I came up to you after 10 seconds and told you, you failed to accomplish the job of changing the tire.
But what happened to the "Saddam is 45 minutes away from hitting the US with a WMD" ?

A closer analogy would be for someone to say, "You have to be at the bus station in 10 minutes, otherwise you'll miss the bus!" and when you get to the bus station you find out the bus stopped running 10 years ago.

You call the people who rushed you to the bus station, and they say, "Just wait. One might still come along".
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Old 09-03-2004, 03:31 PM   #77
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Sting, I hesitate to trust a poll that was taken in the spring of this year. It's months old. I don't know how they polled people in Iraq in the first place, but public opinion is a very fickle thing. This poll, at the very least, needs to be updated. If the poll shows that the Iraqi people are happy *now*, OK, but this poll is obsolete.
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Old 09-03-2004, 03:49 PM   #78
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Would you keep changing policy based on a "fickle" public opinion?
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Old 09-03-2004, 04:03 PM   #79
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Sting, I hesitate to trust a poll that was taken in the spring of this year. It's months old. I don't know how they polled people in Iraq in the first place, but public opinion is a very fickle thing. This poll, at the very least, needs to be updated. If the poll shows that the Iraqi people are happy *now*, OK, but this poll is obsolete.

The most recent poll of the Iraqi Soccer heros, (who were tortured by Uday) btw.



"We will go home and fight the occupiers.'

or to borrow a line from the classy "Honorable Dick Cheney"

Go **** yourself.
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Old 09-03-2004, 05:46 PM   #80
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isn't that democracy to respect the opinion of the mayority, even if we don't agree with the "mob"?
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Old 09-03-2004, 06:27 PM   #81
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I think you do more harm than good if you keep changing course based on polls, focus groups and the like. You end up leading to stay in office.
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Old 09-03-2004, 06:38 PM   #82
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Originally posted by cydewaze

As does yours because one cannot prove a negative.



But what happened to the "Saddam is 45 minutes away from hitting the US with a WMD" ?

A closer analogy would be for someone to say, "You have to be at the bus station in 10 minutes, otherwise you'll miss the bus!" and when you get to the bus station you find out the bus stopped running 10 years ago.

You call the people who rushed you to the bus station, and they say, "Just wait. One might still come along".
Instead of coming up with some vague analogy to explain failure in the case of Iraq, come up with a factual historical example to demonstrate how Iraq is a failure. As I have said before, in terms of certain political and economic development criteria, Iraq is ahead of where Germany and Japan were at this particular point.

No one ever stated Saddam was 45 minutes away from hitting the US mainland with WMD. It is a fact that though that within 45 minutes, any Iraqi division could fire multiple artillery shells and ballistic missiles potentially filled with WMD across the border into neighboring countries causing heavy damage.
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Old 09-03-2004, 06:54 PM   #83
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i agree with you to a certain point, of course you shouldn't overstretch this "it's better for you if i do what i do, and not what you want me to do" thing
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Old 09-03-2004, 08:24 PM   #84
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Originally posted by nbcrusader
Would you keep changing policy based on a "fickle" public opinion?
nah, not my policy
but definitely my motivation for my policy
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Old 09-03-2004, 11:40 PM   #85
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Bush doesn't have any arguments left. Every domestic number coming out of this admin fg sucks, except home building.

My husband & I are a Home Construction Co, so this little run to low interest rates have been profitable, except that our investments of any profit are also in the LOOOOWWWSS/
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Old 09-04-2004, 02:17 PM   #86
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Bush doesn't have any arguments left. Every domestic number coming out of this admin fg sucks, except home building.

My husband & I are a Home Construction Co, so this little run to low interest rates have been profitable, except that our investments of any profit are also in the LOOOOWWWSS/
How about 5.4% unemployment rate and a 4.8% GDP growth rate. These numbers are better than when Clinton got re-elected in 1996. These are the numbers the economist use to determine the strength of the economy.
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Old 09-04-2004, 02:56 PM   #87
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[B]

The connecting logic i can see in japan is their will to be superior and they were also willing in the times of their dictator to get western knowhow.
Since they found out that democracy works better it was their will to become a democracy to improve, when they compared their economy to the us and the russian economy they could see that free market was the superior thing.

But you're right, Japanese people loved their country much more and because of that also their leader than anything we can see in the arab world.
We can see that logic in europe and the US too - if our country is attacked we rally behind our leaders no matter if we supported them before.

[B]

Well i wouldn't call this minor also the USSR sent more conventional weapons to Iraq there was strong support of the western world (not only US) to stop the evil commis from their march to the oilfields.
Saddam played his West vs. East game pretty good and got support from all sides.

[B]

It is reported that Bin Ladin wasn't verry religious when he was young. Later he became religious but not political. We (the western world) thought we could instrumentalize this man and use him as a weapon against communism.

[B]

Yes, i agree with you here, sorry for that sentence

[B]

let's say they benefited from the cold war.


Following that logic Stalin was never supported by the US.

There are tons of documents which show us that there was support of these men but:
I don't think that the US government supported any of the men we mentioned because they love to support dictators but because of rational reasons.
And you're not able to see how it ends.
There were hundreds of dictators supported either by USSR or the US in the cold war just for strategic reasons.
After the fall of the communist block there's some of this mess left, some of them are gladly history.
The United States military wrote Japan's constitution which they still use today. It rebuilt Japan. These facts alone speak for themselves. The fact is, political systems can be brought in and set up by foreigners whether its democracy or something else and be enormously successful with or without the initial support of the population.

By the way, Russia did not have a free market economy until the 1990s, so Japan would not be looking at Russia for that example. Japan's level of intensity in fighting for their dictatorship has almost no parallel in the 20th century.

SADDAM got virtually all of his support from the SOVIET UNION. I can post the weapon's tables as I have before in hear on all the weapon systems that Iraq had from the Soviet Union versus the limited number of weapon systems from other countries. In addition, the amount of money that was sent to Iraq during that time was in excess of 100 BILLION. The United States portion of that figure is only 5 Billion. A tiny fraction of the total amount. The United States never sent any weapon systems to Iraq. It did how ever send TOW I missiles to Iran for the arms for hostages deal. Saddam did not have to play an east or west game. His supporter was the Soviet Union. There were over 1,000 Soviet troops in the country during the entire war training the Iraqi military!

Bin Ladin's role in Afghanistan as well as his connections with the west have been overblown. The United States funded the Mujahadeen who were led by the former Northern Alliance leader Masood. Even then, the amount of support was small amounting to only a few Billion dollars over the entire war.



During World War II, the United States sent thousands of tanks and airplanes to the Soviet Union. More importantly, it provided virtually all the RAW MATERIALS for the construction of Russian made planes and tanks. It also fed the Soviet military as well as the Soviet population. Most of the Soviet Union's prime industrial producing and agricultural producing area's were overrun by the Germans.

The Soviets had the largest military in the war. Infantry back then either walked or of the army was mechanized were in trucks. The United States help turn the Soviet military into a fully mechanized force by providing nearly ALL the trucks for every Soviet Division created and put into the field after 1941!

So no, your analogy making a comparison between the United States support of the Soviet Union and any support the United States may have given to Iraq or another middle east country does not work.
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Old 09-05-2004, 09:24 AM   #88
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The United States military wrote Japan's constitution which they still use today. It rebuilt Japan. These facts alone speak for themselves.
My point is that they were ready for democracy before that beause their mindest is "We want to be the best" and it's not shamefull for them to copy others nations inventions and ideas.


Quote:
By the way, Russia did not have a free market economy until the 1990s, so Japan would not be looking at Russia for that example.
That was exactly my point, they were able to look how successful different economic systems work free market vs. planned market.

Quote:
SADDAM got virtually all of his support from the SOVIET UNION. I can post the weapon's tables as I have before in hear on all the weapon systems that Iraq had from the Soviet Union versus the limited
Everyone who's interested in that can look at our pre-iraq-war threads in the war forum
The only critic i had about this list was the missing dual-use goods (like antrax spores) and the inteligence support.

Quote:
The Soviets had the largest military in the war. Infantry back then either walked or of the army was mechanized were in trucks. The United States help turn the Soviet military into a fully mechanized force by providing nearly ALL the trucks for every Soviet Division created and put into the field after 1941!
This last one was new to me, thanks!

Quote:
So no, your analogy making a comparison between the United States support of the Soviet Union and any support the United States may have given to Iraq or another middle east country does not work.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I didn't try to make any analogy, it's just a simple fact that sometimes governments to support other governments because of their enemy.
Sometimes it works out great, other times a huge problem of the future is created.
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Old 09-05-2004, 08:44 PM   #89
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I don't know if terrorism is winnable or not - you can kill a man, but not an idea. What were Che Guevara's last words "Shoot, coward, you're only killing a man." Goes to show you what the legacy can be, even if you chop off the head.

That said, you do need a concerted effort to go and root out terrorists wherever they are and develop a strategy to root out terrorism as a whole, even if it takes 500 years. The problem, as I see it, is that we are barking up the wrong tree in Iraq entirely. The war on terror will not be won here at all, it needs to be won in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, two states which breed terrorists by the dozens and yet we ally themselves with them. It's seriously a demented policy. Truth be told, I don't think Iran is any better than these two, and yet where are we? Iraq. There were considerably larger fish to fry, and we sit now negotiating with a lunatic cleric, watching people getting heads chopped off, a soccer team that sees us as oppressors while those peace-loving madrassas in Saudi, Pakistan and Iran are churning out baby Osamas and brainwashing those children into a future of murder and destruction.

We're fighting the wrong war here.
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Old 09-06-2004, 05:03 AM   #90
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That said, you do need a concerted effort to go and root out terrorists wherever they are and develop a strategy to root out terrorism as a whole, even if it takes 500 years. The problem, as I see it, is that we are barking up the wrong tree in Iraq entirely. The war on terror will not be won here at all, it needs to be won in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, two states which breed terrorists by the dozens and yet we ally themselves with them. It's seriously a demented policy. Truth be told, I don't think Iran is any better than these two, and yet where are we? Iraq. There were considerably larger fish to fry, and we sit now negotiating with a lunatic cleric, watching people getting heads chopped off, a soccer team that sees us as oppressors while those peace-loving madrassas in Saudi, Pakistan and Iran are churning out baby Osamas and brainwashing those children into a future of murder and destruction.

We're fighting the wrong war here.

well written anitram !!!
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