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Old 12-14-2004, 06:46 AM   #46
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Dang theologians...lol Forgot that Mary had to be sin free too....not just God. His power is limited....
Just another reason I can't stand systematic theology. Once you paint yourself into a corner, you have to start creating new rules.
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Old 12-14-2004, 08:10 AM   #47
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BINGO!!!!!!!

And that led to the Immaculate Conception. This is the doctrine that Mary's soul was placed inside of her developing body in the womb by God, so that she too would not have the transfer of Original Sin.

Jesus, to be free from sin had to have a Mother and a Father free from sin.

See, God can create life inside a woman's womb without a male being part of it, but he cannot create Jesus without original sin, he does not have that power because MAry would transfer her link to original sin to Jesus. So God, did not create mary the same way he created Jesus. She had human parents creating her human body through fornication just like you or I, but instead of her soul developing like you or I he placed a soul in her free without sin.
If God can create Mary in Mary's mother, why can't God create Jesus without Mary or Joseph's help?

I guess we get mixed up with the idea that original sin comes from the birthing process. I would see no reason to believe that Jesus carried Mary's blood or dna - thus no link to original sin.
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Old 12-14-2004, 08:25 AM   #48
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


I guess we get mixed up with the idea that original sin comes from the birthing process. I would see no reason to believe that Jesus carried Mary's blood or dna - thus no link to original sin.
How much blood or DNA is transferred through the umbilical chord?
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Old 12-14-2004, 08:40 AM   #49
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar

How much blood or DNA is transferred through the umbilical chord?
What's sad is that there are probably well-meaning theologians who are huddled in a tight circle debating this very question right now.

Personally, I think the reason for the virgin birth came down to the Jewish understanding of a father-son relationship. Culturally, a father and son were considered identical in thought, ideas, opinions, influence, and actions. Thus, if the biological father of Jesus can be God Himself, the case for Messiah makes much more sense.
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Old 12-14-2004, 11:24 AM   #50
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Makes sence?

nope.

is sin a biological condition? Is it a genetic defect?
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Old 12-14-2004, 03:05 PM   #51
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Interesting issue in all of this being the obvious conclusion that sex of any kind is automatically SIN. Even for Mary's legally married parents to conceive her was seen by some early Church folk as tainting her and therefore Jesus with sin.
Yes, that is my hesitation with accepting the whole story. I try to see the story seperate from the church's doctrine, but it's difficult.


Its important to remember that was more of a Greco-Roman idea. The Hebrew culture celebrated marriage, sex and fertility, it's a major theme within the OT. Virginity and celibacy was not something they would emphasize.
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Old 12-14-2004, 03:12 PM   #52
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The virgin birth was a sign from God that was fortold in the Old Testiment.

Isaiah 7:10-14*

10 Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz, 11 "Ask the LORD your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights."

*** 12 But Ahaz said, "I will not ask; I will not put the LORD to the test."

*** 13 Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
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Old 12-14-2004, 04:46 PM   #53
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I think whether or not the Virgin Birth happened depends on who Jesus was. If Jesus was the Son of God, then the Virgin Birth did happen. If He was just some ordinary man with an extraordinary faith, then he was conceived the normal way.

I know I said here I believe in the Virgin Birth, but I should rephrase that and say I believe it is possible it occured, because I think its possible Jesus was the Son of God.
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Old 12-14-2004, 05:38 PM   #54
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Of course it happens. That's the beauty of the whole dogma. You can take it or leave it. And by believing - without seeing - you are blessed. That is faith. The minute you know something it stops being faith and it becomes knowledge.

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Old 12-14-2004, 05:45 PM   #55
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Douglas Adams "The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy"

Quote:
"The argument goes something like this: `I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, `for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'

"`But,' says Man, `The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'

"`Oh dear,' says God, `I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanished in a puff of logic.
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Old 12-14-2004, 05:47 PM   #56
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Old 12-14-2004, 06:16 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally posted by indra
I don't think so. But then again I don't believe that Jesus was the son of God any more than anyone else is. And I also don't believe in God in the form of a person or person-like being either...perhaps a powerful life-force, but not an omniscient creator.
Agreed. To me, the idea of God is as an underlying force permeating everything, in all that exists.

That's not as articulate as I would like it to be, but hey, it's late! I know what I mean!
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Old 12-14-2004, 06:40 PM   #58
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Douglas Adams "The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy"

Love that book! Two thumbs up!
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Old 12-15-2004, 12:22 AM   #59
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Originally posted by Lemon Meringue
13 Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.
There's a really interesting thing about that prophecy.

Matthew quotes it in his Gospel based on the Greek, which translated "young woman" as "virgin." It's simply young woman in Hebrew. The early church knew of the translation "error" and explained it in a variety of ways.

That's not to say it didn't happen, of course, but Matthew's reference to it is definitely inaccurate. Luke has the story without the verse.
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Old 12-15-2004, 04:24 AM   #60
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Originally posted by sallycinnamon78


Agreed. To me, the idea of God is as an underlying force permeating everything, in all that exists.

That's not as articulate as I would like it to be, but hey, it's late! I know what I mean!
I love it when people sum up in 2 sentences, something I could wander around in circles for 2 hours trying to formulate a sentence on.


I'm not sure we actually have the same views, but to me the God I prefer to subscribe to (actually I have trouble believing anything else) is everywhere, in us and all around us. Perhaps in many forms, perhaps only in one. Perhaps parts are here and there. Much like in the song Heaven by Live, I can look at my daughter and believe. Gawd I used a cliche. Anything that is beautiful or remarkable or reliable. Anything bad is a result of us being given a gift iif you will, to experience life very richly. It is not always a great life or an easy life, but there is this balance and I believe in the Chinese proverb that we must know pain to know joy, hurt to know love. Zen etc. It's too big and all encompassing to be left entirely up to chance, I'm pretty sure. Sorry, I believe, is more accurate. We dont know, but my generic God fits me. Or maybe I fit him/Him.

Ignore this lol. I told ya's I could ramble
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