US Politics III

[AEON]

why would the works of medieval islamic scholars take anything away from enlightenment philosophers and 20th century theoretical physicists?

btw, einstein probably wouldn't have gotten very far without algebra...just sayin'

Yes, algebra was probably developed in lands occupied by Islam - but you are giving that one achievement equal weight to everything that came before it and after it. If Western Civilization were a baseball team and contributions to math and science were the games - its season record would be along the lines of 155-7.

 

[DaveC]

because god forbid anyone just appreciate the genius of an islamic scientist for what it is.

 

[AEON]

because god forbid anyone just appreciate the genius of an islamic scientist for what it is.

Fair enough. I will do that. I will appreciate the genius of an islamic scientist for what it is.

 

[AEON]

What your thoughts on Steve Bannon's 60 minute interview? On his war on the GOP?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-breitbart-steve-bannon-declares-war-on-the-gop/

 

[trojanchick99]

I cannot believe what I'm reading. I just can't. How is acknowledging that some great leaps in human knowledge and invention came from non-Judeo/Christian civilizations take anything away from the accomplishments of Western Europe?

If we're being honest here early Christians did a lot of harm to our knowledge base and our repositories of history. I mean they didn't call it the Dark Ages for nothing.

I love history. I was a Classics major and can read Latin and 5th Century Attic Greek. These civilizations contributed much to the furthering of human knowledge. No one is saying they didn't. However, ancient China, Babylonia, Egypt, Persia, India also did and to ignore their contributions is idiotic.

 

[BVS]

What your thoughts on Steve Bannon's 60 minute interview? On his war on the GOP?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-breitbart-steve-bannon-declares-war-on-the-gop/

A drunk hell bent on revisionism and nationalism; I'm sure you loved it.

 

[Diemen]

Bannon's whole "you could not be more dead wrong" on immigrants helping strengthen and build this country is astonishing in its ignorance and revisionist white-washing.

Aeon, you say you like to argue, fine. You're not alone here in that. However, I have to admit to feeling a bit... unsettled that your entire position seems to be based on the premise that white, western European based culture is superior to all others, so what's so wrong with wanting to keep America white?

 

[AEON]

Aeon, you say you like to argue, fine. You're not alone here in that. However, I have to admit to feeling a bit... unsettled that your entire position seems to be based on the premise that white, western European based culture is superior to all others, so what's so wrong with wanting to keep America white?

I can see that. From my point of view, ever since I was college student, I feel like I've had to defend Western Civilization. There's been an over-emphasis on the negative and not enough building on the positive. So, I can see how it comes across that I am arguing that Western Civilization is superior, when I feel that I am just trying to bring the perception of it back to even.

My daughter just started her first year of college. This summer, we were just talking about current events, family, history...and then her face saddened and she said, "I feel like we don't have a history. Everyone else has this great history - and we have nothing." I was shocked on many levels. One one hand - I realized I had failed her, because our family has an awesome American history, and on the other hand, how sad is it that someone of European descent - who's American heritage traces all the way to the 1650s - can graduate from High School without knowing the history of her own people? (she made straight A's)

 

[AEON]

A drunk hell bent on revisionism and nationalism; I'm sure you loved it.

I admit, I'm starting to like aspects of Economic Nationalism...

 

[AEON]

I love history. I was a Classics major and can read Latin and 5th Century Attic Greek. T

I think that is so Kick Ass!

 

[JTNash]

I can see that. From my point of view, ever since I was college student, I feel like I've had to defend Western Civilization. There's been an over-emphasis on the negative and not enough building on the positive. So, I can see how it comes across that I am arguing that Western Civilization is superior, when I feel that I am just trying to bring the perception of it back to even.

My daughter just started her first year of college. This summer, we were just talking about current events, history, family...and then her face saddened and she said, "I feel like we don't have a history. Everyone else has this great history - and we have nothing." I was shocked on many levels. One one hand - I realized I had failed her, because our family has an awesome American history, and on the other hand, how sad is it that someone of European descent - who's American heritage traces all the way to the 1650s - can graduate from High School without knowing the history of her own people? (she made straight A's)

Seriously? All freggin history is about white man except the small chapters about others.

 

[nbelcik]

Seriously? All freggin history is about white man except the small chapters about others.

When you're so used to having privilege, equality is seen as a bad thing. Same goes with history. Literally the entire educational system has emphasized the history of white males and ignored everyone else. Now, we're starting to focus on neglected history and realizing the valuable contributions of people who aren't white men, which is a great thing as it's a more accurate version of history. Unfortunately some people see it as a negative thing and believe that recognizing the contributions of other cultures somehow diminishes their own culture. It's a zero-sum way of looking at things.

 

[JTNash]

When you're so used to having privilege, equality is seen as a bad thing. Same goes with history. Literally the entire educational system has emphasized the history of white males and ignored everyone else. Now, we're starting to focus on neglected history and realizing the valuable contributions of people who aren't white men, which is a great thing as it's a more accurate version of history. Unfortunately some people see it as a negative thing and believe that recognizing the contributions of other cultures somehow diminishes their own culture. It's a zero-sum way of looking at things.

We have just begun to even recognize there are other people involved in history how can one not see this?

 

[JTNash]

Don't even get me started on the lack of women in history either. It goes as far back as the Bible!

 

[nbelcik]

This is in no way related to any of the conversation but I thought everyone should see this

 

[Babydoll]

Great posts made here, but one thing AEON seems to ignore is that colonialism played a huge role in forcing 'Western values' down the throats of indigenous populations as well. Christianity was also forced on native populations too. I don't have time to respond properly right now, but thought I'd add that nugget that folks like Aeon seem to forget in his defending of white Western civilization - that it came at a huge cost of human lives, suffering and plunder.

 

[Irvine511]

I can see that. From my point of view, ever since I was college student, I feel like I've had to defend Western Civilization. There's been an over-emphasis on the negative and not enough building on the positive. So, I can see how it comes across that I am arguing that Western Civilization is superior, when I feel that I am just trying to bring the perception of it back to even.

My daughter just started her first year of college. This summer, we were just talking about current events, family, history...and then her face saddened and she said, "I feel like we don't have a history. Everyone else has this great history - and we have nothing." I was shocked on many levels. One one hand - I realized I had failed her, because our family has an awesome American history, and on the other hand, how sad is it that someone of European descent - who's American heritage traces all the way to the 1650s - can graduate from High School without knowing the history of her own people? (she made straight A's)

Wow. That must be so difficult for you and your family, to feel as if you aren't being justly feted for the accomplishments of your racial ancestors at every possible moment.

Imagine how sad your daughter would feel if you were black and you get just the month of February (the shortest month, no less) to learn about your racial forebears.

Oh, wait. That would require a modicum of empathy and a view of history that isn't a competition.

I'm finding your posts pretty upsetting AEON, not because you're making any coherent points or aren't being swatted down by people much more educated than you at ever turn, but because i know you're not alone in your racist historical revisionism. That, as has been said, equality feels like oppression when you've been in a position of privilege your entire life.

I think this is a large part of what happened for some in the election. White people suddenly voted as if they were a minority, because the enormous gains women, racial minorities, and sexual minorities have made over the past 30 years somehow came at their expense.

Its so depressing.

 

[BVS]

I can see that. From my point of view, ever since I was college student, I feel like I've had to defend Western Civilization. There's been an over-emphasis on the negative and not enough building on the positive. So, I can see how it comes across that I am arguing that Western Civilization is superior, when I feel that I am just trying to bring the perception of it back to even.

My daughter just started her first year of college. This summer, we were just talking about current events, family, history...and then her face saddened and she said, "I feel like we don't have a history. Everyone else has this great history - and we have nothing." I was shocked on many levels. One one hand - I realized I had failed her, because our family has an awesome American history, and on the other hand, how sad is it that someone of European descent - who's American heritage traces all the way to the 1650s - can graduate from High School without knowing the history of her own people? (she made straight A's)

I'm pretty sure we're being trolled at this point.

Is this real?

 

[AEON]

I'm pretty sure we're being trolled at this point.

Is this real?

The real tragedy, BVS, is that I think you truly believe that. It makes me wonder how often you engage with others with a different POV, because I am far from extreme my friend...far....from it.

 

[AEON]

Great posts made here, but one thing AEON seems to ignore is that colonialism played a huge role in forcing 'Western values' down the throats of indigenous populations as well.

Which of these "western values" do you oppose? Rationalism? Humanism? Scientific inquiry? If "western values" are so terrible, then why does the world flock to those countries that exhibit these qualities?

Christianity was also forced on native populations too. I don't have time to respond properly right now, but thought I'd add that nugget that folks like Aeon seem to forget in his defending of white Western civilization - that it came at a huge cost of human lives, suffering and plunder.

True, I would not claim that Western Civilization does't have some black eyes.

 

[DaveC]

Which of these "western values" do you oppose? Rationalism? Humanism? Scientific inquiry? If "western values" are so terrible, then why does the world flock to those countries that exhibit these qualities?

oh for fucks sakes...

she didn't say one single word that hinted that she was "opposed" to any western values, or that she finds any of them "so terrible" in any way shape or form.

your constant twisting of things others say into something they didn't even suggest so that you can attack them over a view they don't hold at all is dishonest and irritating. this shit is exactly why we often get so frustrated trying to have a discussion with you.

 

[BVS]

The real tragedy, BVS, is that I think you truly believe that. It makes me wonder how often you engage with others with a different POV, because I am far from extreme my friend...far....from it.

Pretty much on a daily basis my far too assuming friend.

 

[anitram]

your constant twisting of things others say into something they didn't even suggest so that you can attack them over a view they don't hold at all is dishonest and irritating. this shit is exactly why we often get so frustrated trying to have a discussion with you.

Also, AEON, it's pretty disappointing and scary for you to downplay colonialism almost entirely. It is arguably the greatest evil committed by human beings in the last 1000 years, the vestiges of which are still shaping geopolitics today. It's absolutely shameful for you to brush it off.

 

[AEON]

Also, AEON, it's pretty disappointing and scary for you to downplay colonialism almost entirely. It is arguably the greatest evil committed by human beings in the last 1000 years,

Wow. That't funny. This is funny too:

 

[AEON]

Also, AEON, it's pretty disappointing and scary for you to downplay colonialism almost entirely. It is arguably the greatest evil committed by human beings in the last 1000 years, the vestiges of which are still shaping geopolitics today. It's absolutely shameful for you to brush it off.

Hey, how can you blame the West for this? None of this would have happened had Islam not given the West the gift of algebra...

 

[AEON]

your constant twisting of things others say into something they didn't even suggest so that you can attack them over a view they don't hold at all is dishonest and irritating. this shit is exactly why we often get so frustrated trying to have a discussion with you.

DaveC,

Perhaps you can rephrase, in your own words, what she is trying t convey...?

 

[AEON]

Pretty much on a daily basis my far too assuming friend.

Yet, you still think I'm a troll (I think all of the name calling and tirades have been...not me) and an extremist? You might want to expand that circle just a bit...

If this forum wishes to be Bill Maher's HBO program, where a token conservative is brought in as red meat...so be it...

 

[anitram]

Hey, how can you blame the West for this? None of this would have happened had Islam not given the West the gift of algebra...

That's really disgusting. Shame on you.

I wish that somebody would drop you in the middle of the Congo and leave you there for a good, long while until your head popped back out of your ass.

 

[Diemen]

Wow. That't funny. This is funny too:

Hey, how can you blame the West for this? None of this would have happened had Islam not given the West the gift of algebra...

These certainly seem like comments made from someone trying to get a rise out people. (aka, a troll)

 

[BVS]

Yet, you still think I'm a troll (I think all of the name calling and tirades have been...not me) and an extremist? You might want to expand that circle just a bit...



If this forum wishes to be Bill Maher's HBO program, where a token conservative is brought in as red meat...so be it...

Where did I call you an extremist?

The whole victim thing is tiresome. No, I think we would just prefer a forum where you didn't have someone constantly twisting in order to try and make a point. Honesty would be nice.