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Old 04-14-2008, 12:08 PM   #31
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BVS is entirely correct. There is no legitimate use for a handgun, assault rifle or any other firearm in the hands of the normal average citizen other than hunting rifles for hunting game. No-one in America is any more free because of their guns, if anything they are prisoners in their own houses in alot of cases. Black people didn't gain their rights with handuns (quite the opposite, nowadays, but of course it's serving the purpose well...I digress....) Gay marriage isn't going to happen because of an armed storming of Congress.

And this whole 'well regulated militia" bullshit - where is the well-regulated militia of concerned citizens to fulfill the need of removing the Bush administration, by force if necessary? WE DONT DO THAT ANYMORE, PEOPLE. We vote.
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Old 04-16-2008, 08:27 AM   #32
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abcnews.com


Conceal and Carry at VA Tech?
One Student Group Fights for the Right to Carry Concealed Weapons on Campus
By TERRY MORAN and HOWARD L. ROSENBERG
BLACKSBURG, Va., April 16, 2008

On that windy April day last year, when death descended on Virginia Tech, students, faculty and staff confronted one of America's worst nightmares: A mad, broken young man, armed to the teeth. The memories are still raw.

"Hokie Nation," as they called the school's close-knit community, came together, rallied, and mourned with dignity and a distinctive spirit.

One year later, the Virginia Tech campus is once again an idyllic place, and Norris Hall, where 30 people were murdered by Seung-Hui Cho, and where he took his own life, is being transformed into a Center for Peace Studies and Violence Prevention.

So, it might come as a shock to learn that, for some students at Virginia Tech, the answer to Cho's gun rampage is concealed handguns — on campus.

"A lot of people don't understand the aspect of carrying for self defense," said Ken Stanton, a 30-year-old engineering graduate student at Virginia Tech, and the head of the Vermont chapter of Students for Concealed Carry on Campus. University policy prohibits students or employees, except campus police, from carrying concealed weapons, though visitors who have a valid permit are allowed to keep their guns.

Stanton says concealed weapons can protect students from muggers, rapists and even deranged school shooters like Cho.

"The reality is that it was probably the one thing that could have turned the tables. Many people tried to attack Cho while during this, and stop him. People closed doors, threw things at him ... so realistically speaking, there needed to be a stronger weapon of some kind for someone to have been able to stop him in the situation," Stanton said.

It's a tough sell in a community as traumatized by gun violence as Virginia Tech, but Stanton is convinced guns in the hands of licensed, responsible students would make the campus safer. He also believes that parents may come to accept the idea.

"The first reaction might be, 'Oh, my gosh, there's gonna be guns on campus.' But if you flip that around and understand that there are people there ready to defend themselves and possibly others if there's an attack, it actually becomes a safer place, in that sense, so it becomes an issue of understanding for parents," Stanton said.

Gaining Support Across America

Students for Concealed Carry on Campus is a nationwide movement that claims 25,000 members, and organizes, as most advocacy groups on campus do nowadays: on Facebook.

One of the 11 campuses that allows students to carry concealed weapons, Blue Ridge Community College, is just an hour away from Virginia Tech, outside Staunton.

Stanton points to that campus, and others, as examples of effective conceal and carry. "There has never been a shooting, there has never been a gun stolen, there has never been any of these speculatory [sic} situations where we say, 'oh, everything is going to go wrong,'" Stanton said. "It actually has been shown quite the contrary that students have been even more responsible with their right to carry on campus than others."

But Virginia Tech is different. It's a place scarred forever by gun violence.

"Nightline" met with several officers of the Students for Concealed Carry on Campus group at Virginia Tech. Nearly all of them knew someone who was killed by Cho last year, including Nina Camoriano. When she came to Virginia Tech, she accepted the school's ban on carrying concealed guns, but not any more.

"Since April 16th, I've realized that's really not an option and wanted to get involved to let the world know that we need the right to defend ourselves and we need it now. We can't be sitting ducks, and that's what all college campuses are right now. The more we hem and haw and just let things go, people are dying over this issue," she said.

Self-Defense or Unnecessary Danger?

And how do the Students for Concealed Carry on Campus members feel about college students carrying guns when they go out to party?

"Well, the funny thing about that is, you know people are already allowed to [carry] concealed off campus and that's where all the drinking happens," said Kenneth Anderson.

In fact, state regulations governing concealed weapon permits prohibit carrying a firearm into elementary schools, middle schools and high schools, places of worship, courthouses or places where alcoholic beverages are served or consumed.

Fellow member James Kenny added, "Also, a lot of the people you hear making that argument are people who don't know much about firearms and project their fears about firearms on others and say, 'oh, well, I don't trust myself with a gun, so why should I trust anyone else with a gun?'"

The students said it's all about self-defense.

"The beauty of concealed carry is that you don't have to carry to be protected by it," Camoriano said. "So, just the element of uncertainty makes a lot of these would-be criminals change their minds and choose a different place to attack."

Virginia is one of 39 states that issue concealed carry licenses to qualifying residents. Virginia requires a permit applicant to be at least 21 years old, and pass a firearms safety course and a background check, before carrying a gun.

School officials adopted a strict policy and established the rule banning guns from campus in 2006 — a rule that obviously did not stop Cho.

But most Virginia Tech students ABC News spoke with said that licensed, concealed weapons are not the answer.

"I think it's definitely a step in the wrong direction," said sophomore Jessica Blint, of Pittsburgh. "I think we should be teaching other things, like getting along with each other and ways to deal with anger and depression, instead of saying that the way we deal with that is to have a weapon on you."

After a year of trauma and grief and recovery, the school is moving forward, debating how best to stop such violence in the future, and how best to keep everyone safe.
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Old 04-16-2008, 09:09 AM   #33
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anyone who thinks it is a brilliant idea to allow guns into an environment where there is a constant flow of alcohol and a significant number of suicide attempts and sexual assaults is a fucking idiot
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Old 04-16-2008, 09:17 AM   #34
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anyone who thinks it is a brilliant idea to allow guns into an environment where there is a constant flow of alcohol and a significant number of suicide attempts and sexual assaults is a fucking idiot
QFT

add cowboy hats and you have the wild wild west...
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Old 04-16-2008, 10:11 AM   #35
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anyone who thinks it is a brilliant idea to allow guns into an environment where there is a constant flow of alcohol and a significant number of suicide attempts and sexual assaults is a fucking idiot
I agree with that. Honestly I wonder how much they have really thought this through. Ditto for the eleven schools that already allow it.
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Old 04-19-2008, 02:50 PM   #36
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Originally posted by ImOuttaControl


Because driving is a privilege, not a right.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

So unless you're plannign to join the militia (last I checked we had a few, the Army, Air Force, Navy) it is a privelege to own a gun outside of the milita, not a right.
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Old 04-19-2008, 03:38 PM   #37
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Only that for other people the interpretation is "[Being] A well regulated Militia, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed.", making it a right again.

Nonetheless, some training and certificate that you can handle a gun before you get to purchase one, why not?
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Old 04-20-2008, 02:26 PM   #38
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A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

So unless you're plannign to join the militia (last I checked we had a few, the Army, Air Force, Navy) it is a privelege to own a gun outside of the milita, not a right.
Wrong. Gun ownership is a right and has been backed by the Supreme Court.

Read a little U.S. history. "Militia" is meant as citizen soldiers--regular folks who had guns and could rise up to meet any threat to the country, whether it is a foreign or domestic threat. I've even read that the massive amounts of guns and people who know how to use them in the U.S. was a major deterrent against Soviet invasion early in the Cold War and Japanese invasion early in World War II--even when Japan had a vastly superior military.

"All political power comes from the barrel of a gun. The communist party must command all the guns, that way, no guns can ever be used to command the party." --Mao Tse Tung(Problems of War and Strategy, Nov 6 1938, published in "Selected Works of Mao Zedong," 1965)

"The most foolish mistake we could possibly make would be to allow the subject races to possess arms. History shows that all conquerors who have allowed their subject races to carry arms have prepared their own downfall by so doing." --Adolf Hitler
Hitler's Table Talk 1941-44: His Private Conversations, Second Edition (1973), Pg. 425-426. Translated by Norman Cameron and R. H. Stevens.
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Old 04-20-2008, 02:33 PM   #39
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega

Nonetheless, some training and certificate that you can handle a gun before you get to purchase one, why not?
I have no problem with training. In fact, the area that I grew up (upper midwest) has so many guns and hunting is a past time. We had gun safety classes in 7th grade even though the majority of us had been shooting since we were about 7 years old. We took classes on how to safetly handle and fire a gun and went to a local gravel pit to shoot.
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Old 04-20-2008, 03:19 PM   #40
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Read a little U.S. history. "Militia" is meant as citizen soldiers--regular folks who had guns and could rise up to meet any threat to the country, whether it is a foreign or domestic threat.
But this simply doesn't stand true anymore, it's a BS argument. How is your shotgun going to stand up next to a tank? Please enlighten me...
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Old 04-20-2008, 06:28 PM   #41
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But this simply doesn't stand true anymore, it's a BS argument. How is your shotgun going to stand up next to a tank? Please enlighten me...
If you think that the approximately 45-50 million households in the United States that own the roughly 200-300 private guns in the country could not take out a tank, you are sorely mistaken. Soooo...I think your arguement is B.S.

Iraq right now is proof that you don't need the most advanced weapons in the world to bog down the most powerful military in the world.


Anyway, going to my original point. I think it's sad when people want to cherry-pick the parts of the Constitution that they like and say the rest are "outdated." It's funny how today the far left will complain that our 4th Amendment or our 8th Amendment or even how our 1st Amendment has been violated by the Bush administration, but then these very same people would voilate our 2nd Amendment at the first possible chance.

Our Founding Fathers were smart enough to include the "Right to Bear Arms" in the Bill of Rights. It has undoubtedly protected our liberties many times.

They were also smart enough to make it possible to amend the constitution. Thankfully the American public is smart enough to still recognize it's importance.
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Old 04-20-2008, 06:50 PM   #42
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I've yet to hear of a tank that was stopped by a handgun. And I don't think it's favourable to teach the public how to build IED's or tankbusters.
On the other hand, that wouldn't be necessary. History has shown how fast knowledge of how to build bombs spreads.
But is it reasonable to think the citizens in America are still needed as a militia, ever fighting against its own military? I would rather say no.

It's pretty weak to dismiss 2nd amendment criticism with referencing other amendments which are understandably viewed in a whole different light. What is the argument against establishing a state church or promotion of a certain religion, which inevitably leads to a considerable infringement of other's personal religious or non-religious freedom? Or what is the argument against excessive fines and bails, or against the abolition of warrantless search etc.?
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Old 04-20-2008, 06:51 PM   #43
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Originally posted by ImOuttaControl


If you think that the approximately 45-50 million households in the United States that own the roughly 200-300 private guns in the country could not take out a tank, you are sorely mistaken. Soooo...I think your arguement is B.S.

Iraq right now is proof that you don't need the most advanced weapons in the world to bog down the most powerful military in the world.
An occupation and a take over are implemented completely differently therefore not an equal analogy.

But you are right, 200 shotguns might be able to take out A tank, but what about the other several hundred tanks, jets, and weapons our government has access to?

Quote:
Originally posted by ImOuttaControl


Our Founding Fathers were smart enough to include the "Right to Bear Arms" in the Bill of Rights. It has undoubtedly protected our liberties many times.
They were also smart enough to realize society will change and weren't arrogant enough to think they would be able to foresee everything, therefore the document was designed to evolve and capable of change. I think it's sad when some forget this.
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Old 04-20-2008, 08:59 PM   #44
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Originally posted by ImOuttaControl

.. and went to a local gravel pit to shoot.

Dear god. OK. You grew up with this. It's absolutely normal to you. Whatev.


Your comment, re: cherry picking parts of the constitution which are outdated; how is this somehow a negative thing to do? If laws cannot be organic and continually change to adapt as society does, then you're eventually to face more problems than a few guns in the wrong hands.
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Old 04-21-2008, 12:05 AM   #45
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


QFT

add cowboy hats and you have the wild wild west...


First, you need to check your history.

Example, Dodge City had about ten murders from about 1869-1870.

You wanna compare that to a city today?
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