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Old 06-17-2005, 12:59 PM   #76
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A motto we like is, "In the essentials, unity. In the non-essentials, liberty. In all things, love." Basically stating that, if an issue is not dependant on your eternal salvation, learn to agree to disagree. But no matter what, love each other.
I have an honest question; Do you feel that in some issues, that complete adherance to that moto can be detrimental to a Christian's relationship with Christ? If one of the members in your church believes in a heretical doctrine, do you have the responsibility to help guide them toward the truth, even if the heresy doesn't have anything to do with salvation?
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Old 06-17-2005, 01:14 PM   #77
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If it doesn't have anything to do with salvation, I'm not sure I could say it's a heresy.

As far as other situations, the goal is unity and respect, and that's going to have to allow for some diversity. I don't agree with the doctrines of everyone in the my church. I don't even agree with everyone on our ministerial staff. But I guess I just believe in the end we have to say, "Hey, we're both still saved, so we'll have to agree to disagree."

Most of the time we take it on a case-by-case basis. And yes, I do try to correct those who I believe have come to wrong conclusions, but that's just because I'm right.
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Old 06-17-2005, 01:19 PM   #78
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The song has always struck me as being about the guidance of the Holy Spirit.


i think it's about both.

the holy spirit is supposed to be feminine, right?

could not the most famous line -- "if you wanna kiss the sky/ better learn how to kneel" -- be Bono seeking to be both worshipful to God in a literal sense, as well as being worshipful to his wife in an oral sexual sense? is not performing oral sex on women something that many straight men have a problem with, that it can be seen as not masculine? could this be a form of submission that takes you to a higher place?

again, that whole God/sex thing ...
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Old 06-17-2005, 01:21 PM   #79
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I always took that line as a reference to prayer.
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Old 06-17-2005, 01:23 PM   #80
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I always took that line as a reference to prayer.


can't it be both?!?!?!

that's what i find so exciting about the song. that sexual intercourse, the melding of two bodies, can be prayerful, it can be of god, by embracing human-ness at it's most base -- the flesh -- you can access the spiritual. when you are making love, you are literally MAKING LOVE.



this is why i LOVE achtung.
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Old 06-17-2005, 01:27 PM   #81
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I always took that line as a reference to prayer.
I always took it as "if you want to be exalted by God, you must humble yourself".
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Old 06-17-2005, 01:29 PM   #82
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Ah, yes. Bono's the only guy I know who'd have the guts to intertwine sex and worship to God together. Quite a poet, he is.

But I'm more of a POP guy, myself. I've always loved the brutal honesty of it. I thought "Wake Up Dead Man" was heretical until I realized the disciples said the same thing to Jesus (Mark 4:35-51).
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Old 06-17-2005, 01:32 PM   #83
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Ah, yes. Bono's the only guy I know who'd have the guts to intertwine sex and worship to God together. Quite a poet, he is.


he gets it from Prince ...
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Old 06-17-2005, 01:32 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511




i think it's about both.

the holy spirit is supposed to be feminine, right?

could not the most famous line -- "if you wanna kiss the sky/ better learn how to kneel" -- be Bono seeking to be both worshipful to God in a literal sense, as well as being worshipful to his wife in an oral sexual sense? is not performing oral sex on women something that many straight men have a problem with, that it can be seen as not masculine? could this be a form of submission that takes you to a higher place?

again, that whole God/sex thing ...
I agree.
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Old 06-17-2005, 01:50 PM   #85
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If it doesn't have anything to do with salvation, I'm not sure I could say it's a heresy.
One example I can think of is that some modern Christian denominations, while giving lip service to "saved by grace", encourage self-legalism to "keep on God's good side". While that doesn't directly deal with salvation, I consider it heresy, and it has great potential to hurt a believer's relationship with Christ. As you know, Paul was none too kind to those of his time who were trying to introduce strict adherance to the Mosaic law into the church. In several of his letters, he focuses his contempt (yes, contempt) on them.
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Old 06-17-2005, 02:01 PM   #86
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In that example, I'd do my best to teach them otherwise. Most people will listen to a rational argument from Scripture about what we believe. But in extreme circumstances, there are certain types of disciplinary systems in place in the method of Matthew 18:15-17.

An example we've dealt with in the past is the issue of speaking in tongues. Some believe it is a part of the corporate worship, others don't. The final conclusion was: you're still a Christian whether or not you believe speaking in tongues should be part of corporate worship. So agree to disagree. Does that make sense?
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Old 06-17-2005, 02:09 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally posted by stammer476
In that example, I'd do my best to teach them otherwise. Most people will listen to a rational argument from Scripture about what we believe. But in extreme circumstances, there are certain types of disciplinary systems in place in the method of Matthew 18:15-17.

An example we've dealt with in the past is the issue of speaking in tongues. Some believe it is a part of the corporate worship, others don't. The final conclusion was: you're still a Christian whether or not you believe speaking in tongues should be part of corporate worship. So agree to disagree. Does that make sense?
Oh good, I understand now. It does make sense.
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Old 06-17-2005, 04:04 PM   #88
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Wan't there a story recently about a pastor in North Carolina or somewhere in the South who just decided to confess that there were sexual crimes being committed in his church by his congregation? He just up and told this to the police. Does anyone know what I'm talkng about? Maybe this is the chruch's site..I;d laugh if it weren;t so serious. That sotry is true.
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Old 06-17-2005, 11:26 PM   #89
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Originally posted by Teta040
Wan't there a story recently about a pastor in North Carolina or somewhere in the South who just decided to confess that there were sexual crimes being committed in his church by his congregation? He just up and told this to the police. Does anyone know what I'm talkng about? Maybe this is the chruch's site..I;d laugh if it weren;t so serious. That sotry is true.
Really?? Wow! That puts an entirely different spin on things. I'll have a look at the site - if it's true I'm sure it will be there somewhere...
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Old 06-17-2005, 11:31 PM   #90
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WARNING: This may be distressing and triggering for survivors so please don't read if it's going to hurt you


Teta - is this the one you mean?
http://www.theneworleanschannel.com/...99/detail.html

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Neighbor Says He Heard Screaming Inside Church

POSTED: 10:52 am CDT May 19, 2005
UPDATED: 5:10 pm CDT May 19, 2005

NEW ORLEANS -- A fourth arrest involving sexual abuse charges connected to a Ponchatoula church was made Wednesday evening, and a neighbor is talking about what he has seen and heard over the years.

Allen Pierson
Allen Pierson
Allen Pierson, 46, was booked Wednesday on one count of aggravated rape. According to the arrest warrant, Pierson engaged in sex with a girl who was 9 or 10 years old at the time. The victim is now 13, investigators said.

Chris Labat
Chris Labat
Both Pierson and another suspect, Tangipahoa Deputy Chris Labat, 24, have listed the Hosanna Church compound as their home address at one time or another.

Louis Lamonica
Louis Lamonica
The other suspects are former Hosanna pastor Louis Lamonica, 45, and church member Austin Bernard, 36.

Three of the four men arrested have children of their own, but detectives refuse to say whether their children were victims.

Tim Norman has lived next door to the church for 15 years. He said over time, he has watched it become and stranger and stranger place.

"One time, I had to return something to (Lamonica)," Norman said. "I walked up to the door and heard his wife screaming. She was a Eucharistic minister, too, and I heard her say, 'I'm going to whip the sins right out of this guy.' She was screaming at the top of her lungs. Man, I turned right back around. I had goose pimples. I told my wife they're doing an exorcism. It was like 'Poltergeist' or something."
The allegations against Lamonica and Labat include charges that cats and dogs were used in their alleged crimes, investigators said.

"There were a bunch of animals down by the creek," Norman said. "They weren't cut up or anything, but they were all crippled up. One of them, a Jack Russell terrier, was just lying on the property. He died the next day of internal injuries."

The investigation is ongoing, and more arrests are expected, detectives said.

"Mr. Pierson was just another player in this, and we're trying to put the information together," said lead investigator Charles Fitz. "We don't know how many arrests will come. We've got teams doing interviews, and we're interviewing victims to determine what we do next."

Norman said he has lost good neighbors because of the church.

"My neighbors moved," he said. "They were scared of these people. They said, 'They're going kill you.' I said, 'Let them come.'"
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