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80sU2isBest said:
What are single people to do? Well, according to the Bible, abstain from sex. It's not impossble; many people do it.

I'm not sure if
Adam and Eve ever had an official ceremony, but I know that their union was blessed by God. They were one in every way - God even created Eve from Adam.



so, if through fate and circumstance a single person never meets someone to marry, they are doomed to never achieve any sort of union and never experience one of the consummate human experiences?

and, again, what's a poor gay boy to do?

as for A & E, that's been addressed in subsequent posts.

allegory. all allegory. it might be truth, but i take all said "facts" with a big grain of salt.

but that's just me.
 
80sU2isBest said:
What are single people to do? Well, according to the Bible, abstain from sex. It's not impossble; many people do it.

I'm not sure if
Adam and Eve ever had an official ceremony, but I know that their union was blessed by God. They were one in every way - God even created Eve from Adam.

I don't know a lot about the Bible. Could you please tell me what chapter and verse you are referrring to in the Bible regarding single people abstaining form sex?
 
"Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body, but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body" I Corinthians 6:18

"Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion [literally, "be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust)" 1 Corinthians 7:8-9

"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."-1 Corinthians 7:1-2, KJV

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are [these]; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness..." - Galatians 5:19

"And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. " - Eph 5:2-4

"Follow peace with all, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Hbr 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [you], and thereby many be defiled; Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright." - Hebrews 12:14-16
 
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Irvine511 said:

allegory. all allegory. it might be truth, but i take all said "facts" with a big grain of salt.

but that's just me.

Irvine, though we disagree on Adam and Eve, I apprecaite the respect with which you stated your disagreement.
 
what do we mean by fornication?

i think a good explanation of that word would go a long ways towards what those biblical passages are about.

here's what dictionary.com had to say, thought it was interesting:

for·ni·ca·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fôrn-kshn)
n.
Sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other.
Word History: The word fornication had a lowly beginning suitable to what has long been the low moral status of the act to which it refers. The Latin word fornix, from which fornicti, the ancestor of fornication, is derived, meant “a vault, an arch.” The term also referred to a vaulted cellar or similar place where prostitutes plied their trade. This sense of fornix in Late Latin yielded the verb fornicr, “to commit fornication,” from which is derived fornicti, “whoredom, fornication.” Our word is first recorded in Middle English about 1303.

[Download Now or Buy the Book]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


for·ni·ca·tion (fôrn-kshn)
n.

Sexual intercourse between partners who are not married to each other.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
forni·cate v.


Source: The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.


Main Entry: for·ni·ca·tion
Pronunciation: "for-n&-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin fornicatio, from fornicare to have intercourse with prostitutes, from Latin fornic- fornix arch, vault, brothel
: consensual sexual intercourse between a man and esp. single woman who are not married to each other; also : the crime of engaging in fornication —compare ADULTERY
NOTE: Where still considered a crime, fornication is classified as a misdemeanor.


Source: Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of Law, © 1996 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


Main Entry: for·ni·ca·tion
Pronunciation: "for-n&-'kA-sh&n
Function: noun
: consensual sexual intercourse between two persons not married to each other


Source: Merriam-Webster's Medical Dictionary, © 2002 Merriam-Webster, Inc.


fornication

n 1: voluntary sexual intercourse between persons not married to each other 2: extramarital sex that willfully and maliciously interferes with marriage relations; "adultery is often cited as grounds for divorce" [syn: adultery, criminal conversation]


Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University


fornication

in every form of it was sternly condemned by the Mosaic law (Lev. 21:9; 19:29;
Deut. 22:20, 21, 23-29; 23:18; Ex. 22:16). (See ADULTERY.) But this word is
more frequently used in a symbolical than in its ordinary sense. It frequently
means a forsaking of God or a following after idols (Isa. 1:2; Jer. 2:20; Ezek.
16; Hos. 1:2; 2:1-5; Jer. 3:8,9).
 
Irvine511 said:
what do we mean by fornication?

i think a good explanation of that word would go a long ways towards what those biblical passages are about.

I'll play the part of the Bible nerd for the moment.

The word "fornication" in the above texts (most of them, at least, I didn't check them all) is the Greek "porneian" which is most often translated as "fornication" or "sexual immorality." It is the root of where we get our English word "pornography."

It originally meant "prostitution," but later at the time of the New Testament held a wider range of meaning that included all "illicit sexual relations."

In the Old Testament (Septuagint), it was used as a translation of the Hebrew "zanah," which meant "illicit intercourse." Metaphorically, it stood for religious idolatry, specifically idolatry of Israel against God in an unfaithfulness to her "Husband," God.
 
80's it seems to me those verses you quoted can be interpreted in different ways. However, thanks for the info.
Regardless, I am going to continue to fornicate. Sex is natural, sex is fun!:yes:
 
Maggie1 said:
80's it seems to me those verses you quoted can be interpreted in different ways. However, thanks for the info.
Regardless, I am going to continue to fornicate. Sex is natural, sex is fun!:yes:

As Irvine pointed out there are indeed different meanings for different contexts.

However, I would think that the meaning of the following passages is quite clear:

Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion [literally, "be inflamed (with anger, grief, lust)" 1 Corinthians 7:8-9

"Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband."-1 Corinthians 7:1-2, KJV
 
What continues to worry me about never having sex before marriage is the problem of total sexual incompatibility. It does happen, you know. Obviously, it's not a good idea, for one's physical or spiritual health, to slut it up and have gazillions of casual sex partners. But when you're in a committed, monogamous, long-term relationship, and contemplating marriage...I don't know, for me, I think a sex life is important. I think you'd need to make sure you're happy to be sleeping with that person and no one else for the rest of your life, and that your partner is happy with that as well. You need to make sure that he or she is generous and fun and attentive as a lover, etc. etc...

Wouldn't it suck to get married and find out you're totally sexually incompatible? To me, I want to be at the altar with zero reservations. I want to say "I do" freely and happily and peacefully. I don't want there to be any unanswered questions, any mysteries, any surprises. And to my way of thinking, that really does honor a Christian ideal of marriage, in that marriage is supposed to be lasting and faithful.
 
Sexual desire, lust, whatever you want to call it, seems just like a natural human feeling. All you have to do is look at the delicious men in my avatar and signature to see desire. Yet I didn't choose to find them attractive. It just happened when I laid eyes upon them. How is this sinful if I can't help it? Or am I just misunderstanding everything.
 
Irvine511 said:
did Jesus have anything to say on the matter?

When talking about the difference between ceremonial cleanliness and inner cleanliness, he said, "But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man 'unclean.' For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what make a man 'unclean'; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him 'unclean.' "

Here, again, he uses the Greek "porniea" which I described ealier for our English "sexual immorality."

When asked about divorce, he quoted the Old Testament with "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

And as far as our original topic of this thread, there's the straightfoward, "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."
 
By the way, according to what I have just read, Corinthians are based on letters written by Paul, not Jesus, concerning problems in the church.
Also, I would like say, God does not expect us to be perfect and without sin. I agree we should try to live a good life, but we also need to be realistic and we should not judge others.
People have been having sex since the beginning of time and will continue to have sex and we should not feel guilty about a natural desire.
 
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stammer476 said:


And as far as our original topic of this thread, there's the straightfoward, "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.'But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."



did Jesus say this? or was this from the OT?

also, do you think sexual sins cause more hysteria than other sins?
 
Yeah, Jesus said it. His quoting of the OT was "Do not commit adultery." The rest was all him.

I'm not sure what you mean by "hysteria." Please explain. It sounds like a very interesting question.
 
U2democrat said:
Sexual desire, lust, whatever you want to call it, seems just like a natural human feeling. All you have to do is look at the delicious men in my avatar and signature to see desire. Yet I didn't choose to find them attractive. It just happened when I laid eyes upon them. How is this sinful if I can't help it? Or am I just misunderstanding everything.

It's not sinful to find people attractive. It's not even sinful to be sexually tempted. The devil tempts everyone. However, if you act on that temptation or purposely dwell on the thoughts, it's becomes yours.
 
stammer476 said:
Yeah, Jesus said it. His quoting of the OT was "Do not commit adultery." The rest was all him.

I'm not sure what you mean by "hysteria." Please explain. It sounds like a very interesting question.



what i mean by hysteria is that, according to the OT, gay sex is a sin (debatable, but that's what the general consensus seems to be). also, another sin would be taking the name of the Lord's name in vain, or not keeping the Sabbath holy. everyday, i make little "oh my god" or "jesus christ!" comments. so does most everyone i know. i go running on sundays, i sometimes work, either way i'm not keeping it holy. so, i suppose i'm violating 2 Commandments right there. and so are most other people.

yet, we don't see constitutional amendments preventing people from swearing, nor do we see amendments requiring people not to work and to worship on Sundays. we do, however, see amendments preventing gay people from marrying, on a federal level, and all sorts of proposed amendments seeking to get books wtih any mention of homosexuality out of public libraries, preventing gay peopel from adopting kids, etc.

no one seems to care, at least politically, about the constant and continual violation of two of the 10 Commandments. yet, elections are won or lost about something that doesn't even make the Top 10 as far as sin is concerned, and we are seeing lots of direct, pointed legislation aimed at people who may or may not be in volation of something written in Leveticus.

i could point to other "hysterias" that surround sex ... the use of birth control, the premium placed upon a woman's virginity, the loads of sexual double standards, but the gay one leaps to mind most quickly.

(on a side note, i have done absolutely no work today ...)
 
80sU2isBest said:


It's not sinful to find people attractive. It's not even sinful to be sexually tempted. The devil tempts everyone. However, if you act on that temptation or purposely dwell on the thoughts, it's becomes yours.



so is "Achtung Baby" a sinful album?

it's obsessed with sex and lust and desire, and dwells on these things. though i would argue that it dwells in order to explore, and therefore understand, and therefore to achieve a kind of salvation. how can you be saved if you haven't sinned? can you not sin your way to salvation? the whole idea of Felix Culpa -- fortunate fall.

i suppose that's where i'm most sympathetic to Christianity. what i love is, that no matter what you've done or how bad you've been, you can be forgiven. (though i'm getting sick of these Born Again claims by politicians and journalists ... it's like declaring bankruptcy). it seems that humans were made to sin, made to fuck up, made to be bad. but if through being bad, through being sinful, we then learn what it is to be good and "of God" (as it were), then that makes sense to me. you cannot see the light if you've never strayed into the darkness.

that, to me, is what the Achtung-Zooropa-Pop trilogy is all about, and that's another point where 80s and i disagree: in my opinion, 90sU2isBest.

;)
 
pax said:
What continues to worry me about never having sex before marriage is the problem of total sexual incompatibility. It does happen, you know. Obviously, it's not a good idea, for one's physical or spiritual health, to slut it up and have gazillions of casual sex partners. But when you're in a committed, monogamous, long-term relationship, and contemplating marriage...I don't know, for me, I think a sex life is important. I think you'd need to make sure you're happy to be sleeping with that person and no one else for the rest of your life, and that your partner is happy with that as well. You need to make sure that he or she is generous and fun and attentive as a lover, etc. etc...

Wouldn't it suck to get married and find out you're totally sexually incompatible? To me, I want to be at the altar with zero reservations. I want to say "I do" freely and happily and peacefully. I don't want there to be any unanswered questions, any mysteries, any surprises. And to my way of thinking, that really does honor a Christian ideal of marriage, in that marriage is supposed to be lasting and faithful.

Agreed :up:.

My feelings-personally, I say that if somebody personally wishes to wait until they're married to have sex, that's entirely up to them. I don't care. They have their reasons-they should do what they feel comfortable doing.

I just don't understand the idea some people in this world have of condeming anybody who doesn't wait. Matter of fact, I think the decision of whether to have sex with your significant other before or after marriage is something that should remain solely between the couple, that should remain their decision and their decision alone. That choice shouldn't be any of my concern.

Angela
 
Irvine511 said:
what i mean by hysteria is that, according to the OT, gay sex is a sin (debatable, but that's what the general consensus seems to be). also, another sin would be taking the name of the Lord's name in vain, or not keeping the Sabbath holy. everyday, i make little "oh my god" or "jesus christ!" comments. so does most everyone i know. i go running on sundays, i sometimes work, either way i'm not keeping it holy. so, i suppose i'm violating 2 Commandments right there. and so are most other people.

yet, we don't see constitutional amendments preventing people from swearing, nor do we see amendments requiring people not to work and to worship on Sundays. we do, however, see amendments preventing gay people from marrying, on a federal level, and all sorts of proposed amendments seeking to get books wtih any mention of homosexuality out of public libraries, preventing gay peopel from adopting kids, etc.

no one seems to care, at least politically, about the constant and continual violation of two of the 10 Commandments. yet, elections are won or lost about something that doesn't even make the Top 10 as far as sin is concerned, and we are seeing lots of direct, pointed legislation aimed at people who may or may not be in volation of something written in Leveticus.

i could point to other "hysterias" that surround sex ... the use of birth control, the premium placed upon a woman's virginity, the loads of sexual double standards, but the gay one leaps to mind most quickly.

(on a side note, i have done absolutely no work today ...)

Well, the whole OT and Ten Commandments thing makes your question immensely more complicated, considering the theology of the new covenant and freedom from the Law, so I won't go that direction.

But as to what I think is the heart of your question: why do so many Christians put a larger emphasis on this particular sexual sin (homosexuality) as compared to others? The answer is a little bit ugly, and I think you are aware of why. In my opinion, it's a mixture of 1.) our culture's fascination with all things sexual 2.) long seeded prejudices against gays 3.) it is such a "hot issue" 4.) the fact that "political Christianity" has increased in power. That's what I can come up with on the top of my head. Honestly, I think #3 is the biggest reason of all. While #2 has probably gained the most noteriety, I think it mostly boils down to the fact that this is the topic "Christian" (fill in your own disclaimer) and "secular" (same here) society has decided to go to war on.

It's a mistake. I'll make no concessions to that. We (Christianity) are putting much more emphasis on it than we ever need to or ever should have.

You want to know the topic that Jesus talked about more than almost anything else? Money. Specifically, greed. Yet there aren't any legislations regarding greed on the agenda. Our culture is consumed by greed and it is a much bigger problem for our society than anything sexual. Much, much bigger.

Again, it's a mistake. But it's become a such a controversial point and gained so much steam that it's probably not going to go away anytime soon, unfortunately. And as a minister, frankly, I'm really getting tired of talking about it.
 
Irvine511 said:
i suppose that's where i'm most sympathetic to Christianity. what i love is, that no matter what you've done or how bad you've been, you can be forgiven. (though i'm getting sick of these Born Again claims by politicians and journalists ... it's like declaring bankruptcy). it seems that humans were made to sin, made to fuck up, made to be bad. but if through being bad, through being sinful, we then learn what it is to be good and "of God" (as it were), then that makes sense to me. you cannot see the light if you've never strayed into the darkness.

Oh, Irvine. That's profound on so many levels. You're so close to a realization that so many Christians I know will never understand. I hate message boards.
 
stammer476 said:


Well, the whole OT and Ten Commandments thing makes your question immensely more complicated, considering the theology of the new covenant and freedom from the Law, so I won't go that direction.

But as to what I think is the heart of your question: why do so many Christians put a larger emphasis on this particular sexual sin (homosexuality) as compared to others? The answer is a little bit ugly, and I think you are aware of why. In my opinion, it's a mixture of 1.) our culture's fascination with all things sexual 2.) long seeded prejudices against gays 3.) it is such a "hot issue" 4.) the fact that "political Christianity" has increased in power. That's what I can come up with on the top of my head. Honestly, I think #3 is the biggest reason of all. While #2 has probably gained the most noteriety, I think it mostly boils down to the fact that this is the topic "Christian" (fill in your own disclaimer) and "secular" (same here) society has decided to go to war on.

It's a mistake. I'll make no concessions to that. We (Christianity) are putting much more emphasis on it than we ever need to or ever should have.

You want to know the topic that Jesus talked about more than almost anything else? Money. Specifically, greed. Yet there aren't any legislations regarding greed on the agenda. Our culture is consumed by greed and it is a much bigger problem for our society than anything sexual. Much, much bigger.

Again, it's a mistake. But it's become a such a controversial point and gained so much steam that it's probably not going to go away anytime soon, unfortunately. And as a minister, frankly, I'm really getting tired of talking about it.



great, informative post. i thank you very much.

i do think homosexuality is fixated upon, but i think sexuality in general is a church preoccupation -- specifically, the virgin/whore dichotomy that many woman are forced into. you're either a good girl (Mary) or a bad girl (Jezebel, or whomever). if you have sex, you're bad; if you're a virgin, you're good. that might be due more to cultural influences than actual biblical passages, especially in Catholic countries that tend to venerate Mary more than other denominations of Christianity.

it's just something that Bono said recently that i think makes sense. why is sex such a preoccupation, and not greed? we call Britney Spears a tramp for making money via sex, but we venerate those on Wall Street who make money everytime a company lays off a few thousand workers, cuts its costs, and increases it's stock market value.
 
Irvine511 said:

so is "Achtung Baby" a sinful album?

it's obsessed with sex and lust and desire, and dwells on these things. though i would argue that it dwells in order to explore, and therefore understand, and therefore to achieve a kind of salvation.

I don't know if Achtung Baby is "sinful" or not. I know I don't like it - mainly because I don't like songs about sex. I think songs can be written that deal with sexual temptation and not be "sinful". However, if Bono were advocating/condoning letting sexual temptation turn into action or sexual fantasy, in my opinion, it would be sin.

Irvine511 said:
how can you be saved if you haven't sinned? can you not sin your way to salvation? the whole idea of Felix Culpa -- fortunate fall.

Exactly right, you must have sinned to be "saved". If you were perfect, you wouldn't need Jesus.

Irvine511 said:
i suppose that's where i'm most sympathetic to Christianity. what i love is, that no matter what you've done or how bad you've been, you can be forgiven.

It's excellent.

Irvine511 said:
(it seems that humans were made to sin, made to fuck up, made to be bad.

God didn't intend that anyone sin, or be bad. But man has a free will.

Irvine511 said:
but if through being bad, through being sinful, we then learn what it is to be good and "of God" (as it were), then that makes sense to me. you cannot see the light if you've never strayed into the darkness.

Once we learn what is right and wrong, we are not given license to continue sinning. And contrary to what some Christians seem to believe, once you are saved, you are not given license to just go do wrong simply because you'll know you are forgiven. In fact the Bible says "Should we continue in sin, so that grace may abound? Heaven forbid!"

The Old Testament law was actually the vehicle God used to show the people how sinful they are. Paul called it "the schoolmaster". By God setting down his perfect, holy standards, people saw that they were sinful and could never possibly live up to those standards. Once they saw that, they would realize they couldn't ever be "good enough" and therefore would see the need for a savior, someone to take those sins away. When Christ came on to the scene, he fulfilled that.

Irvine511 said:
that, to me, is what the Achtung-Zooropa-Pop trilogy is all about, and that's another point where 80s and i disagree: in my opinion, 90sU2isBest.

;)

I guess I should change my name to reflect my new preference:

2KU2isBest
 
stammer476 said:


Oh, Irvine. That's profound on so many levels. You're so close to a realization that so many Christians I know will never understand. I hate message boards.



i think that's what the Achtung trilogy is all about! that's why i adore that album so much (aside from the thrilling music, and the fact that my life is improved by the simple existence of "one").

to me, it seems like the Bible is less of a rule book, and perhaps more of a historical text and perhaps, through the example of Jesus, a sort of haigography of someone who we should all try and emulate.

what that doesn't mean is that we walk through our lives constantly asking WWJD when it comes to, say, drinking in high school or having a one night stand. my instinct would be to try and make the best decisions you can, but be aware of your humanness, your fallability, your weaknesses, your shortcomings, the fact that, yes, sometimes you wake up next to a stranger and you feel emptiness. but it is that feeling of emptiness that should, in the long run, lead you back to a feeling of fulfillment. because you've felt pain, you can know joy. because you haven't lead an uptight existence trying to follow biblical instructions down to the very letter, you've LIVED enough, and been human enough, for you to return to those passages and instead of receiving them as instructions or knowledge, you receive them as wisdom. they are now lived-in.

this is not to say: drink! fuck! do drugs! get in fights! but it is to say, trust yourself! believe in yourself! try to do the right thing! don't beat yourself up too much if you fail (gosh, Christianity should give you forgiveness to fail .... i suppose what i dislike most is the idea that we are born bad, and we must then live a whitewashed existence to make up for that ... i'd like to think that we are born with the capacity to fail and to be bad, and we will do both, and we *should* sin, and more importantly, we should learn from sin).

most of all, learn from your mistakes. and do better next time. and pass on what you've learned to others. but know that they have to fall in order to be saved, just like you did.
 
stammer476 said:
And as a minister, frankly, I'm really getting tired of talking about it.

I didn't word that correctly. If people have honest questions about the issue, I'm more than happy to discuss it, such as in this thread. I'm just tired of it getting so much more prominence in our churches than the "bigger issues" in this world. When it comes to talking about the things of God, there are other topics that are much more interesting.
 
80sU2isBest said:


Exactly right, you must have sinned to be "saved". If you were perfect, you wouldn't need Jesus.


[...]

God didn't intend that anyone sin, or be bad. But man has a free will.


I guess I should change my name to reflect my new preference:

2KU2isBest



i see a huge contradiction in the first two lines.

i think God sets us up to sin. i think there's value in sin, IF sin is measured by regret and gained knowledge.

i'm a big fan of post-2000 U2 as well. though i find the last two albums -- while thrilling, and filled with almost astonishing craftmanship -- a bit bloodless, as opposed to the guts on Achtung Baby.


why don't you like songs about sex? i find "so cruel" and "mysterious ways" to be very sexual, but in a very mature, almost intellectual way. there's no "i'm gonna fuck you like an animal" lines on it ... but there are loads of lines that might come from the crotch, but they've gone through the head.
 
Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest

Exactly right, you must have sinned to be "saved". If you were perfect, you wouldn't need Jesus.
[...]
God didn't intend that anyone sin, or be bad. But man has a free will.


i see a huge contradiction here.

i think God sets us up to sin. i think there's value in sin, IF sin is measured by regret and gained knowledge.




I don't see any contradiction in my statements at all.

It was not God's intention for people to sin, but once they did, they were lost, because the perfect nature of God makes it impossible for him to abide in the presence of sin. Christ is the only answer, because he bridges the gap between sinful man and perfect God. He doesn't do that by compromising God's standards; he does that by lifting people up to God's standard; cleansing people of their sin and giving them new perfect spirits. Spiritually speaking, every redeemed person is perfect. Remember my use of the term "spiritually"; I am talking about perfect spirit, not perfect flesh.

The Bible says that God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to salvation thorugh Christ. If God is not willing that any should persih, then God is not willing that any should sin, since it is sin that separates people from God and causes them to "perish" in the first place.
 
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Irvine511 said:


why don't you like songs about sex? i find "so cruel" and "mysterious ways" to be very sexual, but in a very mature, almost intellectual way. there's no "i'm gonna fuck you like an animal" lines on it ... but there are loads of lines that might come from the crotch, but they've gone through the head.

I just don't like `em. But I don't see "mysterious ways" as sexual at all.
 
Irvine511 said:




i think that's what the Achtung trilogy is all about! that's why i adore that album so much (aside from the thrilling music, and the fact that my life is improved by the simple existence of "one").

to me, it seems like the Bible is less of a rule book, and perhaps more of a historical text and perhaps, through the example of Jesus, a sort of haigography of someone who we should all try and emulate.

what that doesn't mean is that we walk through our lives constantly asking WWJD when it comes to, say, drinking in high school or having a one night stand. my instinct would be to try and make the best decisions you can, but be aware of your humanness, your fallability, your weaknesses, your shortcomings, the fact that, yes, sometimes you wake up next to a stranger and you feel emptiness. but it is that feeling of emptiness that should, in the long run, lead you back to a feeling of fulfillment. because you've felt pain, you can know joy. because you haven't lead an uptight existence trying to follow biblical instructions down to the very letter, you've LIVED enough, and been human enough, for you to return to those passages and instead of receiving them as instructions or knowledge, you receive them as wisdom. they are now lived-in.

this is not to say: drink! fuck! do drugs! get in fights! but it is to say, trust yourself! believe in yourself! try to do the right thing! don't beat yourself up too much if you fail (gosh, Christianity should give you forgiveness to fail .... i suppose what i dislike most is the idea that we are born bad, and we must then live a whitewashed existence to make up for that ... i'd like to think that we are born with the capacity to fail and to be bad, and we will do both, and we *should* sin, and more importantly, we should learn from sin).

most of all, learn from your mistakes. and do better next time. and pass on what you've learned to others. but know that they have to fall in order to be saved, just like you did.

(I'm not getting any work done today, either. So I'll briefly respond with what I can. Again, I hate message boards.)

One of the things about being in ministry that breaks my heart is the inability of people to accept grace. Through Jesus, God has poured out such immeasurable and astounding love, and all throughout my church I see people who simply can't understand that. I feel like I'm watching a starving man stumble around for nourishment, when he could be fed beyond his wildest dreams if he would just open his eyes to the feast in front of him. It's maddening and frustrating. Then I remember how much I refuse grace in my own life, and I realize we're all messed up in our own ways.

Christianity is not about rules and religion. It's such a simple idea that is so hard to understand. It's about a relationship with the God who loves you more than you could ever comprehend. A God who's willing to look past your mistakes and see the beauty inside. And so many Christians I know are running around in shackles, scared that they are going to break the rules and God isn't going to like them anymore. God loves you. He has chosen to love you. And that love is not based on who you are, but who He is. That's what grace is all about.

Where's sin in all of this? Making a muck of things, really. Sin pulls us away from God, damaging that relationship and hindering us from the love He so desperately wants to give us. God hates to see how sin hurts us, scars us, and stops us from being what He intended. But sin isn't going to change the way God feels about us. He'll love us, sin great or small. He'll accept us, no matter what we've done or will do in the future.

That's the difference Jesus makes. What we do with Him and who He is makes us a Christian, and bridges that gap between us and God.

Holy crap. Sorry about that. Don't mean to preach, just can't help it sometimes. I guess you hit a nerve. :wink:
 
80s:

then we'll have to agree to disagree.

and the source of that comes from your literal interpretation of the Bible, and the fact that i cannot view it as anything more than allegory.

we might be able to agree that it is "truth" -- i'm still a passionate agnostic, but still very open minded -- but i doubt we'll ever agree on what is "fact."
 
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