The War on Christmas

[randhail]

So would it be okay to tell the Christian students to go to the library and give them computer time, if they object to celebrations of Muslim holidays? Would it be okay if they flat out did not mention Christmas, while parading Muslim holidays? Would it be okay if they were forced to go to school on Christmas? After all, why punish the Muslim majority, just because a few Christians are around for the ride?

Melon

If the party is overtly religious, it should not be allowed regardless of faith. In public schools, I had Christmas parties and religion was never promoted or discussed. These parties celebrate the coming together of friends and commercial aspect of the holiday. If Muslims have a holiday like this, then fine let them celebrate it, just don't read the Koran.

 

[nbcrusader]

In Dearborn, Michigan, they have the largest population of Muslims outside of the Middle East. In the public schools in this area, Christians are probably a small minority compared to all the Muslim students.

So would it be okay to tell the Christian students to go to the library and give them computer time, if they object to celebrations of Muslim holidays? Would it be okay if they flat out did not mention Christmas, while parading Muslim holidays? Would it be okay if they were forced to go to school on Christmas? After all, why punish the Muslim majority, just because a few Christians are around for the ride?

Melon

If celebrated the same way Christmas is (was) celebrated in schools, why not. Santa Claus and Christmas Trees are not religious. If Ramadan was secularized to the same extent, do you think there would be an objection?

 

[nbcrusader]

I don't believe for a second that someone saying "Jesus Christ" "Oh my God" or even for that matter, as one of my friends has an interesting habit of uttering "Christ on his cross" constitutes bigotry against Christians. And hey, using your own arguments - if you guys don't like people using those phrases then you'd be free to just leave, right? Nobody's forcing you to be around people who use phrases you don't like.

Because you are not offended (and, frankly I don't know you religious background), that doesn't mean that Christians would not be offended. Try using the name "Allah" in a disrepectful tone - what response would you expect? What response would you defend?

And as for the leaving the room argument (which was someone elses, not mine) I can tell you are not serious about that because you would not apply that consistently across all situations.

 

[nbcrusader]

...nobody has mentioned that even though America accepts all religions - middle eastern countries don't accept christianity at all...King Fahd in an interview stated that it's ok for the westerners living there to practice thier faith as long as it's not in public....so I'm assuming that no churches (or chapels at airports for that matter) would be built for them.

I think ALL countries should be accepting of all religions....and we all should live happy in peace and tranquility

There are groups of Christians in Egypt (and they actually may be a majority in southern Egypt), but they are consistently the target of discrimination.

But, you are right, no one wants to mention that.

 

[Irvine511]

There are groups of Christians in Egypt (and they actually may be a majority in southern Egypt), but they are consistently the target of discrimination.

But, you are right, no one wants to mention that.

it is amazing how well you argue the role of the victim when it is your turn to feel discriminated against.

also, everyone has mentioned, repeatedly, that, yes, even today Christians are discriminated against in many countries.

but we are talking about the United States.

 

[financeguy]

...nobody has mentioned that even though America accepts all religions - middle eastern countries don't accept christianity at all...King Fahd in an interview stated that it's ok for the westerners living there to practice thier faith as long as it's not in public....so I'm assuming that no churches (or chapels at airports for that matter) would be built for them.

I think ALL countries should be accepting of all religions....and we all should live happy in peace and tranquility

Good point. Muslims need to learn that it is a two way process. Until they learn that, I am opposed to further conciliatory moves such as prayer rooms in airports. The idea of the nasty racist West discriminating against oppressed Muslims is a total and utter myth, as far as I am concerned (although I still think Bush/Blair's invasion of Iraq was a grave error, but that's a different matter.)

 

[FizzingWhizzbees]

The idea of the nasty racist West discriminating against oppressed Muslims is a total and utter myth, as far as I am concerned (although I still think Bush/Blair's invasion of Iraq was a grave error, but that's a different matter.)

Racism against Muslims is a myth? There's been a 600% increase in the number of racist attacks in the UK since July, primarily targeted against the Muslim community or people the racists believe are Muslim. There have been numerous examples of mosques being attacked and people being physically assaulted. And yet you dismiss it as a "total and utter myth"?

 

[financeguy]

Racism against Muslims is a myth? There's been a 600% increase in the number of racist attacks in the UK since July, primarily targeted against the Muslim community or people the racists believe are Muslim. There have been numerous examples of mosques being attacked and people being physically assaulted. And yet you dismiss it as a "total and utter myth"?

Yes, but none of that can be called institutionalised racism, as such incidents are condemned without reservation by almost all mainstream politicians in Britain. The example cited by MissGiggles in Saudi Arabia seems to me to be a form of instutionalised discrimination against non-Muslims.

But if we're going to go down that road...then one has to admit that anti-Western prejudice is not a myth either.

Such as Bali (X2).

Such as the assassinations in Holland of those who are too outspoken in criticising Islam.

And let's not mention the failure of some British Muslim leaders to condemn the terrorist attacks in London, or to hedge around their condemnations with qualification and obfuscation. That wouldn't be PC.

 

[randhail]

Racism against Muslims is a myth? There's been a 600% increase in the number of racist attacks in the UK since July, primarily targeted against the Muslim community or people the racists believe are Muslim. There have been numerous examples of mosques being attacked and people being physically assaulted. And yet you dismiss it as a "total and utter myth"?

It's about as accurate as saying Christians aren't persecuted:

From the BBC - At least 12 people have been killed by a Muslim mob which attacked a Christian village in the Moluccan islands in eastern Indonesia.

Terror returned to Central Sulawesi as Muslim extremists attacked five Christian villages on 10 and 12 October. The raids, by far the worst for over a year, could augur another horrific wave of anti-Christian violence.

 

[financeguy]

Try using the name "Allah" in a disrepectful tone - what response would you expect? What response would you defend?

Or try writing a play satirising Islam. You could be assassinated. Do the same thing about Christianity - you might get a few Bishops complaining, that's about it.

 

[yolland]

If celebrated the same way Christmas is (was) celebrated in schools, why not. Santa Claus and Christmas Trees are not religious. If Ramadan was secularized to the same extent, do you think there would be an objection?

Really? If you lived in Dearborn and all this actually transpired, you'd have no problem sending your kids to school on Christmas and Easter, with a full day of classes on Good Friday?

A "bastardized" holiday, such as Christmas has become in Western culture--and I sympathize fully with devout Christians who lament this--is NOT the same thing as a secular holiday. I have yet to meet an observant Jew who puts up a Christmas tree and sings carols at home. This is not, of course, because we hate or reject Christians, but because the recognition of December 25th as a holiday, secular or otherwise, is simply not part of our religious heritage.

Personally, I have never had a huge problem with the fact that my religion is completely ignored by our national holiday calendar. While I appreciate the good intentions behind euphemisms like "holiday party" and singing the dreidl song etc., they don't make up for the fact that my kids still have to go to school during Chanukah anyway. I will admit that having to work on Yom Kippur, the holiest day in our calendar (which I try very hard to avoid, but sometimes cannot) does sometimes set my teeth on edge. But I am not whining "bigotry" or "religious persecution" about it. Nor do I pitch a fit when kosher meals are not provided at public functions. Nor did my brother boo-hoo and moan about the lack of accommodations for Jewish observance when he was stationed at various bases while in the Air Force.

As I mentioned above, the story about not being allowed to say "Merry Christmas" seems to be an urban myth. And if the story about the Arizona student is the same as the one I found on several conservative Christian websites like the Jeremiah Project's, there was no declaration of unconstitutionality involved; rather it was a case of a teacher telling a kindergartener that "books about God are not allowed" when he chose a storybook about "the true meaning of Christmas" for his "Share Your Favorite Story" project. That sounds to me more like the work of one very stupid teacher who doesn't understand the law, than part of some coordinated plot to purge Christianity from the schools.

Honestly, I wonder if this book is really worth all the huffing and puffing going on in here. It sounds suspiciously like a motley collection of random instances of uncoordinated PC idiocy, baseless urban myths, and spurious whining about basically nothing thrown together in one sloppy, half-baked attempt to further convince those whose minds are already made up that some deep-rooted plot to cow Christians into silence is afoot. But perhaps it will prove to be a trenchant masterpiece of investigative journalism. Coming from the author of "Hating America: The New World Sport," though, I'm not optimistic.

And as for all this back-and-forth statistics quoting about Who's- the-Most-Persecuted-of-Them-All...come on guys, at some point that does get a bit cheapening. Commemoration has its place, but at the point where we're reducing it to an occasion to prop up pint-sized tit-for-tat about such little things...

 

[indra]

Prohibiting someone from saying "Merry Christmas" is religious based censorship.

And Arizona prohibiting a student (not a teacher) from discussing the religious aspects of Christmas falls in the same category.

Schools censor a whole lot of things. And I'm guessing many which you would and do find perfectly acceptable. So I'm also guessing you only cry presecution or bigotry when it's something you give a shit about.

Prove me wrong. Tell me you would allow a student to say or discuss anything in school.

 

[indra]

If you have a classroom with 25 students that celebrate Christmas and 1 student that doesn't, why should all them be punished? I really doubt the kid would object to the party, but the parents probably would. In that case, ask the student to go to the library or give him some computer time.

So that kid doesn't get a party because he or she is the wrong religion? Isn't that persecution?

I'm very happy you are not a teacher or school administrator.

 

[verte76]

...nobody has mentioned that even though America accepts all religions - middle eastern countries don't accept christianity at all...King Fahd in an interview stated that it's ok for the westerners living there to practice thier faith as long as it's not in public....so I'm assuming that no churches (or chapels at airports for that matter) would be built for them.

I think ALL countries should be accepting of all religions....and we all should live happy in peace and tranquility

Saudi Arabia only recently made observances of Shia Muslims legal. Traditionally, their brand of Sunni Islam, Wahhabism, considers Shias to be infidels, so they didn't allow their practices in the Saudi kingdom. That's how intolerant a place Saudi Arabia is. But that's beside the point, I think. We are talking about the United States and some religious toleration issues here.

 

[randhail]

So that kid doesn't get a party because he or she is the wrong religion? Isn't that persecution?

I'm very happy you are not a teacher or school administrator.

That's not persecution, the persecution would come when you have a classroom full of pissed off 5th graders at the one student who didn't want a Christmas party.

 

[indra]

There are groups of Christians in Egypt (and they actually may be a majority in southern Egypt), but they are consistently the target of discrimination.

But, you are right, no one wants to mention that.

Because we aren't talking about other countries, we are talking about the US.

In the US you are not discriminated against. There are people who do not like you because of your religion, but you do NOT face government sanctioned restrictions of your right to practice your religion in your own home or on private property.

There are some restrictions on what can be practiced on public property (although those all too often get very blurry and most often in favor of Christians to the exclusion of all others), but I sincerely doubt you'd like to see all practices be allowed in public, so you should suck it up just like everyone els has to.

 

[nbcrusader]

Schools censor a whole lot of things. And I'm guessing many which you would and do find perfectly acceptable. So I'm also guessing you only cry presecution or bigotry when it's something you give a shit about.

Prove me wrong. Tell me you would allow a student to say or discuss anything in school.

Define the basis for which a school should censor speech. And tell me if Merry Christmas fall under those guidelines.

And you can stop the "give a shit" about it nonsense.

 

[indra]

That's not persecution, the persecution would come when you have a classroom full of pissed off 5th graders at the one student who didn't want a Christmas party.

I think you need a dictionary.

 

[financeguy]

I suggest a moratorium on these threads. They always seem to generate more heat than light.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I suggest a moratorium on these threads.

There are so many other types of threads that do the same

Honestly though I think some people are only interested in things that they can beat to death so to speak and insult people about. Pounce on me for saying that but it's just mho. There's no need to insult people.

 

[randhail]

I think you need a dictionary.

I'm quite familiar with the dictionary chief. All I was saying was that by taking away a party because of one child, the rest of the classroom is likely to be mad at the child who had the party taken away. Call me silly, but I think that would be worse than having the child not participate in the party. As a teacher, it would make my job easier but not having to deal with some pissed off kids.

 

[phanan]

An article from a rabbi last year:


Religious cultural wars and the battle over Christmas

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 16, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com


The explosion of spiritual warfare here in the United States over the legality of Christmas displays on public property has the religious and secular tearing the nation asunder. The division over Bush-Kerry, it seems, is child's-play compared to the division over "Merry Christmas" vs. "Happy Holidays."

At the root of the dispute is a ferocious battle on the part of America's religious Christian community to stop what they see as a secular assault on Christianity. Buoyed by President Bush's victory in November, religious Christians wish to bring back the religious nature of Christmas to public life after its steady and successful marginalization.

Some of the well-publicized stories that highlight the trend include the assault on the very words "Merry Christmas," which are being replaced with "Happy Holidays" in city halls and public schools. The Federated Department Stores, which includes Macy's, told their managers to avoid displaying "Merry Christmas" banners in their stores, a growing trend in American retailing.

In Denver, a church was banned from the city's Festival of Lights parade because it wanted a Christian religious theme to its float. In Maplewood, N.J., a school board banned the singing of "Silent Night, Holy Night" from a school choir performance. And Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York insisted that the lighted tree outside City Hall is not a Christmas tree, but a "Holiday" tree.

But the biggest story of all was the decision of federal Judge Charles Sift banning Nativity scenes from New York public schools, ruling that while Christmas trees, menorahs, and the Islamic crescent were secular – and therefore permitted – Nativity scenes were religious and had thus no place in classrooms.

I empathize with my Christian brethren's outrage at the attempted banning of Christmas from American public life. America needs more of God, not less. Secularism was tried in America over the past half century. It failed miserably, leading to a 50 percent divorce rate, out-of-control teen sexuality and pregnancy, rampant drug abuse and a nihilistic culture that worships money and materialism. Furthermore, as a Jew, I have to object to a menorah being allowed in public property, but not a Nativity scene.

But that having been said, America is not a Christian country. The United States has no official state religion and my Christian brothers and sisters err when they forget that the Pilgrims came to America to escape a country that did have a state religion.

What makes religion in America so particularly successful is that, in the United States, religion is an act of choice rather force, personal conviction rather than collective coercion. Because faith in this country requires heartfelt affirmation, it embeds itself more deeply in the human consciousness.

In countries like England where Christianity is state-sponsored and automatic, it is taken for granted, which is why the Church of England has become a rotting corpse, with empty pews and a host of vicars who are not even sure they believe in God. Americans, by contrast, must affirm their faith as an intimate testimonial, and that's what makes American religion so passionate.

So how should the United States address this controversy over Christmas? The best approach is to allow passive religious displays – such as Nativity scenes and Hanukkah menorahs – in public places, but ban active religious exhibitions which are coercive to participants. A simple case in point is the singing of "Silent Night" in that New Jersey school.

It is grossly unfair to force a Jewish or Muslim child to sing Christian spirituals if they wish to participate in the school choir. That kind of active coercion is anathema to everything the United States stands for and causes grievous offense to non-Christians who have no interest in participating in Christian ritual. But what possible offense could a Nativity scene cause in a city square? If you don't like it, don't look. Walk on the other side of the road.

The same is true of banners reading "Merry Christmas." As long as there are other banners reading "Happy Hanukkah," or "Happy Holidays," why should anyone take offense? Why should Christians have to suffer the conscious purging of their religion from public life, especially in a country founded on Judeo-Christian values? We dare not become a fanatically secular country like France, whose idea of liberty is banning overtly religious symbols like headscarves and Yarmulkes from schools.

But I do lament one development in the religious wars on the part of the religious themselves, namely, a propensity for highlighting the trivial and symbolic, while ignoring the substantive and meaningful – thereby portraying religious people as unnecessarily cantankerous and hypocritical.

America's Christians seem more offended by not seeing a "Merry Christmas" sign in a shopping mall than the wholesale commercial exploitation of Christmas as it is celebrated in a department store rather than a church. Did Jesus and his followers really celebrate his birthday with Santa and his reindeer? Rather than prayer and acts of charity, did Matthew and Peter commemorate Christmas by leaving each other DVD players under a tree?

While I cannot claim to know the mind of Jesus, something tells me that if He were to come back and see Christmas on Fifth Avenue in New York City, the last thing on his mind would be that there was no "Merry Christmas" banner in Bloomingdales.

 

[nbcrusader]

I suggest a moratorium on these threads. They always seem to generate more heat than light.

We tend to know where everyone stands. I'd toss "theocracy watch", abortion and gay marriage in there as well.

 

[financeguy]

^ Agreed.

 

[Irvine511]

Honestly, I wonder if this book is really worth all the huffing and puffing going on in here. It sounds suspiciously like a motley collection of random instances of uncoordinated PC idiocy, baseless urban myths, and spurious whining about basically nothing thrown together in one sloppy, half-baked attempt to further convince those whose minds are already made up that some deep-rooted plot to cow Christians into silence is afoot.

making people feel like victims -- especially when they are in the majority, and therefore are a much bigger market than any minority group -- is a great way to, say, sell books, or get people to listen to your radio talk show, or to win elections.

 

[yolland]

Originally posted by financeguy
I suggest a moratorium on these threads. They always seem to generate more heat than light.

I don't think the problem is the topic really (nor the participants), rather the general tendency for Internet arguments to devolve into a breathless exchange of rapid-fire one-liners (make that seventy-one-liners for the more verbose among us--same difference, it's still off-the-cuff). These topics deserve more measured consideration. (And actually reading all the preceding posts before you jump in!)

I kind of enjoyed it though, personally...

 

[Irvine511]

We tend to know where everyone stands. I'd toss "theocracy watch", abortion and gay marriage in there as well.

hopefully, the elections in 2006 and in 2008 will eliminate the need for a theocracy watch.

until then, i stand, ever vigilant.

 

[mattgerth]

Let's look at the upside of celebrating all cultural / religious beliefs and holidays. In NY/NJ where I live there is a large Jewish population that celebrates a lot of their holidays by taking the day off. When this happens my 1.5 HR commute to work in the morning drops to 30 minutes!!! I am in favor of more celebration.....makes my life a whole lot easier!

 

[Sherry Darling]

No one is forcing you to participate in anything. If you don't like the situation, then leave. You have the freedom to do that. It's pretty simple.

What a poor arguement, Randhail. You must know that the law does indeed compell kids to be in school.

 

[randhail]

What a poor arguement, Randhail. You must know that the law does indeed compell kids to be in school.

My post was in regard to prayer rooms at airports, not about school. I'm well aware the law states kids have to go to school.