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Old 10-24-2005, 03:07 PM   #241
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Originally posted by financeguy



Not necessarily, it clearly has pagan origins. Paganism could be considered a religion in its own right.

As others have argued on the thread, Christmas has also become increasingly secular - it seems to me a bit over the top to argue that holding a 'Christmas party' is akin to religious proselytisation.


it might have pagan roots, but those aren't celebrated in any sort of meaningful sense.

at christmas, while there is certainly a large secularized component, and i remember my Hindu friends celebrating secular christmas -- mostly so they wouldn't feel excluded and left out as small children in a nation that views christmas as some kind of materialistic orgy -- the core of the holiday is highly religious in nature, and that core is widely observed and celebrated, we've all heard of "Christmas and Easter Christians," no?

the comparison isn't appropriate.
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Old 10-24-2005, 03:08 PM   #242
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Nbcrusaader, I'm willing to bet that your church doesn't have a Halloween party, they've probably changed the name to 'Harvest Festival' like most of the other protestant churches. Why is it ok to change the name of a Halloween party but not a Christmas party?
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Old 10-24-2005, 03:10 PM   #243
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Apart from yolland, whose gender I don't know, it occurs to me that women, having realized the futility of this discussion, abandoned the thread long ago, while the same group of men continue to argue the same points. It reminds me of that thread we had a while ago here asking what the difference between the male and female posters on FYM was.

Just an observation.
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Old 10-24-2005, 03:13 PM   #244
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Originally posted by Irvine511
why do you insist on the exclusivity of a christmas party?

Why do you insist that a christmas party is exclusive? Especially, a school run secular Santa Claus christmas party??

You suggested that it be called an "X-Mas" party. Sounds like you have a problem with the word "Christ" in the title.



Makes me wonder if Macfistowannabe's term of "Christophobe" has some validity.
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Old 10-24-2005, 03:18 PM   #245
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
it might have pagan roots, but those aren't celebrated in any sort of meaningful sense.

at christmas, while there is certainly a large secularized component, and i remember my Hindu friends celebrating secular christmas -- mostly so they wouldn't feel excluded and left out as small children in a nation that views christmas as some kind of materialistic orgy -- the core of the holiday is highly religious in nature, and that core is widely observed and celebrated, we've all heard of "Christmas and Easter Christians," no?

the comparison isn't appropriate.
Actually, it is.

How are the religious roots of Christmas celebrated in a meaningful sense in what you describe as a materialistic orgy?
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Old 10-24-2005, 03:19 PM   #246
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Originally posted by Calluna
Nbcrusaader, I'm willing to bet that your church doesn't have a Halloween party, they've probably changed the name to 'Harvest Festival' like most of the other protestant churches. Why is it ok to change the name of a Halloween party but not a Christmas party?
Our church doesn't hold a "Harvest Festival", though I've heard of the Holloween "alternatives" held by churches.

We take our kids trick or treating.

Otherwise, they might feel excluded....
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Old 10-24-2005, 03:32 PM   #247
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


secular Christmas
I guess this is my whole point. Yes Christmas is commercialized, but can it ever truly be secular? And if so, why are you upset about changing the name to "holiday" party, and not the fact that Christmas has become truly secular?
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Old 10-24-2005, 03:53 PM   #248
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


Why do you insist that a christmas party is exclusive? Especially, a school run secular Santa Claus christmas party??

You suggested that it be called an "X-Mas" party. Sounds like you have a problem with the word "Christ" in the title.



Makes me wonder if Macfistowannabe's term of "Christophobe" has some validity.


it is exclusive because when you are having a Christmas Party, the Party is for and about those who celebrate Christmas. yes, others can take part, but it isn't for them -- they are outsiders, and they know that it isn't for them and about them. if, as has been suggested, there were equality in the celebration of holidays, and every religion in the class had an equivalent day, then it would be fine. but there's no time for that.

hence, we have a holiday party, everyone celebrates everyone else's holidays, we all learn, no one feels excluded at a public school, and then everyone can go home and have all the religious Christmas or secular Christmas they want.

what' is so hard about that?

i was being facetious with the "X-mas" part.

yes, i'm such a Christophobe. if that's what you need to think, please go ahead.
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Old 10-24-2005, 03:55 PM   #249
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Actually, it is.

How are the religious roots of Christmas celebrated in a meaningful sense in what you describe as a materialistic orgy?


because one stems from the other; they are inextricably linked. one gives gifts to represent the bringing of gold, frankenscene and myhrr.

also, the religious aspect to Christmas is widely celebrated, and rightfully so, just not in a public school. "a charlie brown christmas" is explicitly religious, and in a rather beautiful way gets at the tension between secular christmas and religious christmas.

if there wasn't a direct relationship, there wouldn't be the tension.
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Old 10-24-2005, 04:15 PM   #250
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Originally posted by Irvine511
it is exclusive because when you are having a Christmas Party, the Party is for and about those who celebrate Christmas. yes, others can take part, but it isn't for them -- they are outsiders, and they know that it isn't for them and about them. if, as has been suggested, there were equality in the celebration of holidays, and every religion in the class had an equivalent day, then it would be fine. but there's no time for that.
The same principle applies to Holloween, for example. There are likely many school activities that "are not for or about" individual students - if that is the principle you are really after.

And it seems somewhat silly to demand that each and every holiday get its own recognition - again, not that you really what that either.
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Old 10-24-2005, 04:31 PM   #251
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this conversation has lost all root in reality.

good bye.
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Old 10-28-2005, 08:11 AM   #252
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Student ghosts unmasked in Newton
Primary school cancels Halloween celebration
By Matt Viser, Globe Staff | October 28, 2005

NEWTON -- When students at Underwood Elementary School walk to their classrooms on Monday, there will be no witches, SpongeBob SquarePants, or Johnny Damons there to greet them.

The school's principal said yesterday he acceded to the complaints of a handful of parents who said that because the school's traditional Halloween celebrations offended their religious beliefs, they would not send their children to school if the revelry continued this year.


http://www.boston.com/news/local/mas...ked_in_newton/
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Old 10-28-2005, 08:25 AM   #253
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Quote:
Originally posted by Irvine511
it might have pagan roots, but those aren't celebrated in any sort of meaningful sense.
Indeed. I don't see us celebrating the birthday of Mithras on December 25th, although the myth of Jesus borrows quite a bit from him.

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Mithraism, like Christianity, offers salvation to its adherents. Mithras was born into the world to save humanity from evil. Both figures ascended in human form, Mithras to wield the sun chariot, Christ to Heaven. The following summarizes the aspects of Mithraism that are also found in Christianity.

"Mithras, the sun-god, was born of a virgin in a cave on December 25, and worshipped on Sunday, the day of the conquering sun. He was a savior-god who rivaled Jesus in popularity. He died and was resurrected in order to become a messenger god, an intermediary between man and the good god of light, and the leader of the forces of righteousness against the dark forces of the god evil."
And just to satisfy the literalists in this bunch, "the myth of Jesus" describes legends that arose about Jesus, rather than the reality of Jesus. Considering that most of St. Paul's Gentile converts were probably Mithraist themselves, perhaps the untold subtext is that St. Paul was trying to convince them that Jesus and Mithras were, in fact, the same person. After all, why does baby Jesus get a visit from the three Magi--the name of the Mithraist priesthood? And why the shift from Saturday to Sunday as the day of worship?

But that's besides the point. If we actually started celebrating the birthday of Mithras on December 25th, I'm certain that Christianity would openly bitch and moan.

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Old 10-28-2005, 05:26 PM   #254
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let the kids have Christmas


and even tell them the story of baby Jesus being born


also, tell them the Jesus was a person who taught against injustice, and about loving one another, like Ghandi, and MLK Jr.

tell them that while people agree that they existed

some have theories that they may have been more than ordinary men

but it is not provable fact.

like the president said


all sides should be taught.
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Old 10-30-2005, 10:24 PM   #255
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also, tell them the Jesus was a person who taught against injustice, and about loving one another...
funny, that.
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