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Old 01-09-2004, 04:15 PM   #31
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The way I heard it on the news was that you don't need the visa right now, but if you want to travel after October 26th of this year, you either need the "biometric passport" or you need a visa you have to apply for in person. For now though, you'll just get photographed and fingerprinted when your flight arrives in the US...which seems really helpful in preventing terrorists from getting on to flights...

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Old 01-09-2004, 06:18 PM   #32
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Originally posted by Angela Harlem
And can someone clarify, lets take the stereotype here that it is muslims and middle eastern folks in particular this is hoping to weed out, what if a band of them come from Canada or Australia and attempt a terrorist attack this way? They're exempt?
Australians arent exempt, nor are any other citizens of the southern hemisphere. Australia hasnt made any terrorist attacks on any nation ever but Australians are included in the 'evil' basket. (Not that any country should be considered evil because of the actions of the minority and/or its leader)

This will achieve next to nothing iof you are going to close off some possibilities and leave gaping holes in other areas. Make it all or nothing.
I agree. I dont think it will achieve anything. Terrorists will find a way through anything if they want to. Whats to stop someone from making car bombs and parking them some where strategic? Or just a personal bomb? One lunatic can cause a tremendous amount of damage if they dont care it they live or die afterwards.

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Old 01-14-2004, 05:39 PM   #33
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Originally posted by Basstrap
the US isn't the only country to be struck by terrorism, yet, as far as I know, they are the only ones to fingerprint.
(besides for Brazil who seem to be doing it out of spite)
is it because of a culture of fear?
Basstrap and others

As a Brazilian citizen, I would like to clarify things. Brazil is not doing this "out of spite" but the customs officials are carrying out a federal judge´s decision based on the international principle of reciprocal treatment that should be applied to citizens of different nations. Only USA citizens must be identified in brazilian airports because brazilian citizens have gone through the same there in USA. The issue have been discussed here. President Lula formally asked Mr. Bush to take Brazilian citizens out of the "evil" list, because it´s prejudicing and completely out of base. Brazilians are friendly and peaceful and none of us have never commited any form of terrorist acts against any other country. Personally, I don´t like what´s going on and I know president Lula doesn´t either, but there is a law and a law must be observed. Maybe the U.S. government should rethink its decision and, as someone said before, make it all or nothing.

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Old 01-15-2004, 04:31 AM   #34
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Although this article from BBC News reports a regretable incident, it´s fair concerning the issue of fingerprinting and photographing U.S. citizens, and might be helpful to understand what I tried to explain above.

In case someone here is interested:

Brazil fines 'obscene' US pilot

An American Airlines pilot has been fined $12,000 for making an obscene gesture while being photographed at Sao Paulo airport in Brazil.
The pilot, Dale Robbin Hirsh, and other crew members were arrested on arrival from Miami.

They have all now been released. American Airlines has agreed to pay the fine and has issued an apology.

However the airline added that the pilot had not intended to be disrespectful.

Brazil has been photographing and finger-printing US visitors in response to similar US requirements for visitors needing a visa.
The incident occurred when Mr Hirsh, 52, and his crew were going through security checks after arriving from Miami.

Mr Hirsh raised his middle finger as he was handing papers to officials, in "an internationally recognised obscene gesture," a Brazilian police spokesman told reporters.

Mr Hirsh was taken to a federal courthouse. The authorities decided not to press criminal charges, imposing a fine instead.

Francisco Baltazar da Silva, chief of Sao Paulo's federal police said Mr Hirsh had apologised repeatedly for the incident.

"Basically, it was a joke done in bad taste," Mr da Silva said.

Ten other crew members were also denied entry to Brazil after causing problems during the identity checks.

American Airlines has apologised over the incident.

"The company apologises to the Brazilian Government, the airport authorities, the police or anyone else who may have perceived anything they believe to have been disrespectful," a statement said.

"The captain and other crew members certainly meant no disrespect."

Tourism fears

The incident comes amid diplomatic tensions between the US and Brazil over the security checks, which came into effect at the beginning of the year.

The Brazilian measures were originally imposed by a judge, but became official government policy this week.

Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva on Monday asked US President George W Bush to drop the visa requirement for Brazilians entering the US.

The checks are to continue for a trial period, while the impact of the measures is monitored.

Many in Brazil fear the policy will harm the country's tourism industry.

Authorities in Rio de Janeiro been giving US visitors flowers and T-shirts saying "Rio loves you" - fearing that the security checks will deter Americans from visiting the city.

The Brazilian measures have been causing long delays for travellers.

When the checks were first introduced, some incoming US flight passengers were delayed at the airport for up to nine hours while security officials ran identification checks.

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Old 01-15-2004, 05:44 AM   #35
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The new rules will apply to all Visa Waiver countries:

"Currently, 27 countries participate in the Visa Waiver Program, as shown below:

Visa Waiver Program - Participating Countries

Andorra (MRP) Iceland Norway
Australia Ireland Portugal
Austria Italy San Marino
Belgium (MRP) Japan Singapore
Brunei (MRP) Liechtenstein (MRP) Slovenia (MRP)
Denmark Luxembourg Spain
Finland Monaco Sweden
France the Netherlands Switzerland
Germany New Zealand United Kingdom

Note: Countries in bold above with the (MRP) designation are required to have machine-readable passports (MRP) as of October 1, 2003 for travelers to enter the U.S on the visa waiver program. All other countries visa waiver program travelers above must have a MRP as of October 26, 2004 except Belgium, which has had an MRP requirement for VWP travelers since May 15, 2003.

What I Need to Know about VWP & the Required Machine Readable Passport?

The Secretary of State, working with the Department of Homeland Security, has granted a postponement until October 26, 2004, as the date by which visa waiver program travelers from 21 countries must present a machine-readable passport at a U.S. port of entry to be admitted to the United States without a visa. Five countries will continue with the October 1, 2003 deadline. The Patriot Act legislated the machine-readable passport requirement for visa waiver program travelers and additionally gave the Secretary of State authority to postpone the effective date.

Countries With an October 1, 2003 MRP Date - Four visa waiver program countries, specifically Andorra, Brunei, Liechtenstein, and Slovenia, did not request a postponement of the machine-readable passport effective date, because all or virtually all of their citizens already have machine-readable passports.

As of October 1, 2003, visa waiver travelers from Andorra, Brunei, Liechtenstein, and Slovenia must present either a machine-readable passport (MRP) or a U.S. visa at the port of entry to enter the U.S. This includes all categories of passports -- regular, diplomatic, and official, when the traveler is seeking to enter the U.S. for business or tourist purposes, for a maximum of 90 days without needing a visa.
Countries With a October 26, 2004 MRP Date - Travelers from countries granted the postponement can continue to travel, as they have in the past, without a machine-readable passport. On October 26, 2004 a machine-readable passport or U.S. visa will be required at the port of entry, to enter the U.S. without a visa. Countries with the machine-readable passport postponement until October 26, 2004 are:

Australia, Austria, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Luxembourg, Monaco, Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Portugal, San Marino, Singapore, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and the United Kingdom.
Belgium, which is also a visa waiver country, was not eligible to receive this extension. Belgian nationals who wish to travel under the visa waiver program have been required to present a machine-readable passport since May 15, 2003."
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Old 01-15-2004, 06:18 AM   #36
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Here's an article from Australia:,00.html

What I can't find out is whether or not what the British government said (as summarized in the BBC article) is correct. Apparently 99% of UK passports are machine-readable (they have the two lines of >>> or whatever at the bottom so they can be scanned), but the DHS website doesn't say whether this is sufficient for all passports issued by October 26, 2004 (as the BBC website claims) and those visiters will just have to be fingerprinted and photographed and not require a visa, or whether all passport holders have to have a biometric machine-readable passport by October 26th or a visa.
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Old 01-15-2004, 09:28 AM   #37
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Here's the latest from today's Toronto Star. I wonder if this applies to everyone, or just Canadians?

U.S. to open files on air passengers
Personal data, itinerary required
Clampdown called invasion of privacy


WASHINGTON—Canadians who board flights in the United States will be assigned a number and colour code based on their security risk under the next step in airline security which begins this summer.

The U.S. government is forging ahead with the controversial program over objections from airlines and civil libertarians, saying it is needed to track potential terrorists on domestic flights.

Under the new system, known as CAPPS2 (Computerized Assisted Passenger PreScreening Program), all passengers will be compelled to release their full names, home address, telephone number, date of birth and travel itinerary to airlines, who will then provide the data to American authorities.

Data will be compared with existing criminal and suspected terrorist databases and those who receive a "green" code will be allowed to board their flight. A "yellow" score will subject the passenger to further screening and a "red" alert will bar the traveller from boarding.

A spokesperson for Air Canada said the Canadian carrier is still awaiting clarification as to whether CAPPS2 includes foreign airlines.

But Mark Hatfield, a spokesperson for the U.S. Transportation Security Administration, said the program would cover all passengers boarding flights in the United States, regardless of the airline's country of origin.

That means a Canadian vacationing in the United States would be subject to CAPPS2 on any flight taking off from a U.S. airport. That would include connecting flights.

Hatfield said the personal data would remain on file only for the duration of a visitor's stay in the country, then would be destroyed "almost instantaneously" upon departure.

U.S. authorities say the passenger's full name and date of birth are needed to avoid confusion involving those with similar or identical names on terrorist watch lists.

Privacy advocates are concerned the CAPPS2 system will access public records and commercial computer banks, such as shopping mailing lists, in a bid to verify that passengers are who they say they are, the Washington Post reported.

Airlines may be ordered to provide the information on their ticket holders. Frequent travellers who volunteer the information to government officials will receive speedy boarding priority under the plan.

When Washington sought to enlist airlines in a test of CAPPS2 last year, they balked. Delta Airlines, the first to co-operate, backed out when it was threatened with a passenger boycott.

Discount carrier JetBlue Airways was sued in several states by passengers after the airline admitted it had volunteered passenger information to the Pentagon as part of a military project to test aviation security.

Domestic U.S. airlines carried 612 million passengers in 2003, according to the Census Bureau. Hatfield said the current system sees about 15 per cent of them flagged as security risks. He says the new system will lower that number to 5 per cent.

Critics say the biggest failing in U.S. air security is the lack of a master list of suspected terrorists and the country is still using a plethora of lists held by various government departments.

Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge had pledged to have a list up and running by last May — now officials are giving no deadline for completion.

Privacy advocates are fighting the system.

"CAPPS 2 is nothing less than a Soviet-style system of internal border controls," said the U.S.-based privacy group "An incredible invasion of privacy, the system is un-American and unconstitutional, not that a pesky thing like the Bill of Rights has stopped the extremists down at Homeland Security."

Barry Steinhardt of the American Civil Liberties Union said the "incredibly invasive system" will collect information that will be used for purposes well beyond airline security.

CAPPS 2 comes on the heels of US-VISIT, a controversial program to track visitors who need visas to enter this country by fingerprinting and photographing them.

The Department of Homeland Security said 3,478 passengers were fingerprinted and photographed at Toronto's Pearson International Airport during the first week of US-VISIT.

They said only a small percentage of those travellers would have been Canadians carrying U.S. visas.

The Toronto numbers are small compared to major U.S. airports. Miami, for example, processed 47,065 visitors under the controversial plan in the first week since it began Jan. 5.
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Old 01-15-2004, 11:44 AM   #38
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Brazil strikes Back:
They want to photograph and fingerprint US Citizens as long as their citizens are treated that way in the US.
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Old 01-16-2004, 12:04 PM   #39
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Fingerprinting is just the beginning

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Old 01-16-2004, 12:34 PM   #40
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Are you for real? I half think that you must just be a troll, considering everything you said in the thread about AIDS in Africa.

Anyway...what McVeigh did was "[standing] up for the principles he believed in" and so it's okay that he killed hundreds of people because he was "pissed off" with Clinton? That's one of the sickest comments I've read here at FYM.

I can't even manage to be civil in responding to your comments about "middle-easterners" so I'll just say that I couldn't disagree more and leave it at that.

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