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Old 01-05-2003, 03:29 AM   #16
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some people will never admit and say "they were wrong, im sorry, we'll do what we can to chance."

at least they looks so rediculous that others can point and laugh at them.
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Old 01-05-2003, 03:31 AM   #17
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not to hijack the thread, but what does "friendly fire" mean anyway? the first time i ever saw this phrase was when my husband was playing some game (counterstrike? i don't know, he plays too many games lol) and i have no idea what it means.
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Old 01-05-2003, 07:16 AM   #18
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WHile in principle, I disagree with giving soldiers drugs to stay awake......THere were some interesting facts which lead me to believe that the pills had ZERO to do with this incident.

From this article:

"At high doses, these drugs can create a toxic psychosis characterized by paranoid delusions, hallucinations, and frequently, aggressive or violent behaviour," a recent paper on amphetamines published by Canada's Addiction Research Foundation says.

The paper suggests that 60 milligrams is at the top end of what is considered the "therapeutic range." The pilots were well below that level.

The U.S. investigation found that Major Schmidt requested pills the day of the 14-hour flight, obtaining them about three hours after waking up. He took 10 mg of the pills while Major Umbach took five mg.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet...al_temp/3/3/27/
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Old 01-05-2003, 10:50 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by KhanadaRhodes
not to hijack the thread, but what does "friendly fire" mean anyway? the first time i ever saw this phrase was when my husband was playing some game (counterstrike? i don't know, he plays too many games lol) and i have no idea what it means.
Hello,

"Friendly fire" occurs when a military party is (accidentally) shooting at members belonging to his own party rather than the enemy. In this case, the USA and Canada (and others) are one party and the Taliban is the other (enemy). So instead of firing at the enemy, the soldiers were firing at their own allies, hence the term 'friendly fire' (as it is coming from your 'friends')

Hopefully this wasn't too chaotic...

Marty
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Old 01-05-2003, 11:41 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
WHile in principle, I disagree with giving soldiers drugs to stay awake......THere were some interesting facts which lead me to believe that the pills had ZERO to do with this incident.
I am only an auditor
but if I was using speed on the job and I would make a mistake that would cost a client a lot of money (only money mind you, we're not talking about human lives) I don't think many people would be interested whether the reason I made the mistake was because I'm on speed or not

I would lose my job
I would not be able to ever work as an auditor again
and I can't say that it would shock me

I'm aware the military can be compared to auditing (we're organized way too good ), but I can't think of any reason why there would be a difference on this issue
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Old 01-05-2003, 05:07 PM   #21
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Big Grin

Quote:
Originally posted by Popmartijn
Hopefully this wasn't too chaotic...
thanks! it explained it perfectly.
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Old 01-05-2003, 09:49 PM   #22
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Cow,

Was this:

"some people will never admit and say "they were wrong, im sorry, we'll do what we can to chance."

at least they looks so rediculous that others can point and laugh at them"

in reference to me?
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Old 01-05-2003, 10:20 PM   #23
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Originally posted by deep
These four Canadians are dead.

How many innocent Afghanis?

How many European skiers?

How many Iranians air liner passengers?

How many Chinese embassy workers?

How many Japanese fishermen?


We all know 3200 people died on 9-11. Those deaths were intentional. The perpetrators should be brought to justice.

In the incidents listed above, the U S. military/government caused hundreds of deaths.

I am not qualified to judge the individuals involved. I dont know all the details. The least we can do is pay compensation to the families, investigate and try and make sure it does not happen again.

The new Bush policy of preemptive action is very worrisome. If we cant get it right - with a little restraint, how many more innocent lives will be lost when the trigger is pulled even quicker?

God help us.

Sting,

The purpose of my post was not to attack th U. S.

The defense of "go pills" is insignificant to the families and loved ones of the deceased.
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Old 01-05-2003, 10:24 PM   #24
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Deep,

Interesting that you neglect to include US military personal who have been killed in friendly fire incendents by foreign military forces and by our own forces. Military training does have risk and the probability of error is never 0.

68 US Naval personal were killed in 1967 when the Israelies mistakenly fired on a US Frigate believing it was an Egyptian Frigate.
Israel has a terrible record of killing the wrong people, children, old people, etc.

It is more complicated for them.

In the West we rarely hear the extent of thier mistaken killings.
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Old 01-05-2003, 11:06 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
WHile in principle, I disagree with giving soldiers drugs to stay awake......THere were some interesting facts which lead me to believe that the pills had ZERO to do with this incident.

From this article:

"At high doses, these drugs can create a toxic psychosis characterized by paranoid delusions, hallucinations, and frequently, aggressive or violent behaviour," a recent paper on amphetamines published by Canada's Addiction Research Foundation says.

The paper suggests that 60 milligrams is at the top end of what is considered the "therapeutic range." The pilots were well below that level.

The U.S. investigation found that Major Schmidt requested pills the day of the 14-hour flight, obtaining them about three hours after waking up. He took 10 mg of the pills while Major Umbach took five mg.

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet...al_temp/3/3/27/
Dreadsox,
thanks for all the links here!

if the drugs are so low as to be harmless, are they also so low they don't do anything?

people have different responses to drugs, that may have been a high dose for that person...you know how the alchohol blood level charts go.

which leads me to what deep said about the victims families not caring that there was drugs involved. Same could be said for victims of car crashes here in America due to drunk drivers. The drivers, if they survive, get charged with manslaughter. But we also take very seriously people's choices to get behind the wheel after drinking, even a little. There is a huge campaign, and it started grass roots (Mothers against drunk driving, MADD) to get at the culture of drinking and driving. People get angry the person was drinking, not that they had an accident; obviously they couldn't react properly inebriated. Can you see the subtle difference of blame? I think the pilots are not going to get off, they will be punished, because the army would rather let them fall then get charged with overall negligence.

Americans are famous for friendly fire. I remember reading a story during Desert storm, where we had few battle casualties, but an entire troop fell sick (and probably chronically) when we blew up a chemical plant, only it all the poison blew downwind on their camp. We make mistakes, we have accidents. Two girls get run over in Korea, its an international incident. The modern world is dangerous, and war makes it more so. I'm sure the ROW will be busy decrying any of these attacks while innocent people are being blown up by suicide bombers in Israeli cafes, and the world is silent.

But heres my real complaint:
the "dextro amphetamine" drugs are CONTRABAND on the street, they are used for kids who's brain wiring is messed up and can't sit still. I know, i teach some. Likely they do distort judgement and produce aggression, even in small amounts, for regular people, and you have to have absolute precise judgement to fly a fighter plane.

"However the drug is not supposed to be used for combat missions, because of the possibility it could impair the judgment of pilots" says the Scotsman

and, exactly what that general, who once got them banned (and he must have had some reason) said, that if you can't stay awake, you shouldn't be out there...

so why is the airforce forcing such erratic flight schedules, that the airmen are fatigued, that is another puzzle.

pilots were (and probably are again) getting addicted to these drugs. Its like all the drugs athletes are taking, they feel the pressure to take them if they want to keep their jobs, maybe

meanwhile, back at home, we are being treated to a lovely melodramatic ad campaign, started right after 9/11, telling us that if we buy drugs we are supporting terrorists.

there is a beautiful irony here, if you would stop the nationalistic bickering you might find a good laugh here. lighten up, ok, bitterness doesn't solve problems.
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Old 01-06-2003, 12:14 AM   #26
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Deep,

If your only concerned with the technical issues involving the friendly fire accident that killed four Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan and not interested in attacking the US military and political officials, why are you bringing up:

"innocent Afghanis"

"European Skiers"

"Iranian Air Liner passengers"

"Chinese Embassy Workers"

"Japanese Fisherman"

Then talking about Bush's policy of pre-emption which to a certain degree has always been US policy and is not an abandonment of other strategies at all.

If your only concerned about the technical aspects of this specific case, don't bring in other things that have nothing to do with it, and select them in away that is so obviously anti-US military.
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Old 01-06-2003, 12:28 AM   #27
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"Israel has a terrible record of killing the wrong people, children, old people, etc."

"It is more complicated for them."

"In the West we rarely hear the extent of thier mistaken killings."

This should read: Terrorist like Humas, Hezbolah, other Palestinian groups, and Al Quada have a terrible record of targeting and killing innocent people and then hiding among innocent civilians so as to cause the deaths of even more civilians when the military attempts to catch or kill them.

Its not very complicated for the terrorist.

In the West we rarely hear the fact that terrorist cause most of the deaths that are blamed on Israely soldiers because they cowardly try to blend in with the civilian population. For them its a two stage process. Cause civilian deaths, then get Israely security to come after you and try and catch or kill you while your in close proximity to other civilians there by causing even more deaths.

At Jenin where the Western media initially reported that 1,000 to 7,000 civilians died, it was later confirmed that only 48 civilians were killed which is what the IDF had claimed all along. Of course none of them would have been killed if the terrorist had not chosen the center of the city to make their base.
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Old 01-06-2003, 12:50 AM   #28
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sting, when i make comments, i try and place them against the highest power.

in this case, im pointing the finger at the american government/propaganda machine that has not given this case the time of day.

ofcourse, the "time of day" is subjective, particularly if you compare summer and winter day light times...:P
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she gotta be strong to fight them
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Old 01-06-2003, 01:01 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by deep


Israel has a terrible record of killing the wrong people, children, old people, etc.

It is more complicated for them.

In the West we rarely hear the extent of thier mistaken killings.

Er, deep, if this is true (and I don't doubt it is), I'd advise you not to say such a thing publicly. It is VERY politically incorrect and pretty much considered un-American.
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Old 01-06-2003, 01:08 AM   #30
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They have given it more time than the friendly fire incident that happened in Kuwait last year.
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