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Old 04-21-2005, 02:48 PM   #31
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Originally posted by Irvine511

you're not a homosexual -- how could you possibly know "why" people are homosexuals?
Good grief. So I worded it wrong. I don't "know" why. It's a belief. But you knew that's what I meant.
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Old 04-21-2005, 02:55 PM   #32
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Nonsense, Irvine. Utter and complete nonsense.

I have never treated any homosexual with contempt, have never commited violence against any homosexual, and do not treat homsexuals as "2nd class citizens"; nor have I ever urged anyone to treat homosexuals that way. My belief that homosexuality is wrong doesn't contribute to any of the above. If you want to blame someone, blame those who commit those acts against you, not me.

You want to have your belief that homosexuality is not wrong, but if anyone has a dissenting opinion, you blame them for the wrongs done against homosexuals.
If you can really be totally objective in all issues related to homosexuality and simultaneously believe that homosexuality is wrong, I salute you. But I think many people do and say many more hurtful things than they mean to because of that sort of internalized prejudice. I'm sure you never meant to be contemptuous or derisive towards a gay person. But are you sure you really haven't hurt anyone in any way? Couldn't just stating your believe that homosexuality is wrong make gay people feel like you're putting them on a lower level than you?

[/butts into argument she doesn't really belong in]
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:00 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


Nonsense, Irvine. Utter and complete nonsense.

I have never treated any homosexual with contempt, have never commited violence against any homosexual, and do not treat homsexuals as "2nd class citizens"; nor have I ever urged anyone to treat homosexuals that way. My belief that homosexuality is wrong doesn't contribute to any of the above. If you want to blame someone, blame those who commit those acts against you, not me.
No I agree, it does make a difference. This is our nature. It's just as if I and many others stated very boldly that we think fat is wrong and a sin. We don't have to act out against them, just us stating fat people are wrong creates an environment. I may not act out against fat people but I may influence someone who is naturally someone who does act out against people to act out against fat people. And then somewhere along the line a politician who grew up believing being fat is a sin and pushes to ban marriage between fat people.
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:06 PM   #34
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Originally posted by melon
Oh blah blah blah. When Catholicism apologizes for calling homosexuals "objectively disordered" and an "intrinsic evil," then I'll start feeling sorry for it.
How can an intangible organization apologize?

Plenty of Catholics have no issue with homosexuals and speak out about it over and over and over again.

I resent being lumped in with the remainder, thanks.
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:09 PM   #35
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I think I'll just go to a programmer to get this horrible, violence-causing belief out of my head.
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:14 PM   #36
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Originally posted by anitram

Plenty of Catholics have no issue with homosexuals and speak out about it over and over and over again.
I agree, I resent being lumped in too honestly. But I certainly understand why Melon is angry about it.

I think more accurately, certain people in the Catholic church could be asked to apologize.

Sometimes I do feel there is prejudice against me because I'm Catholic and some people assume I have certain beliefs and am a certain type of person. But I never feel that prejudice even comes close to what minorities, gay people, etc experience.
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:21 PM   #37
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
However, I also don't think that God made anyone gay.
I was lucky enough to spend some time with some sheep ranchers when I visited Australia. While I was there they were castrating the young sheep and the process included separating the sheep as they came through a gate into female sheep and the young with the male sheep in another enclosure. I don't know why this was the way they broke down the sorting, but I do recall a very vigorous romance between two of the male sheep. I didn't know they were both male until the rancher told us and he pointed out to the group of us that these two males had been lifelong partners and they were useless as breeders because they were so clearly homosexual. They apparently kept them because they produced superior fleece. I had the impression that had there been any reason to kill them, this guy was for it.

If that isn't the strongest example of the natural occurence of homosexuality in nature, then I have no idea what would convince you that people by and large DO NOT choose to be different, they just ARE.
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:24 PM   #38
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Originally posted by anitram
How can an intangible organization apologize?
Yet, didn't Pope John Paul II apologize for the Catholic Church's actions [or lack there of] towards Jews during the Holocaust? So clearly, the head of an intangible organization can make apologies on the behalf of the group they represent.
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:28 PM   #39
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He apologized for the complicity of the Church during WWII and he was absolutely right to do so. He did not apologize for individual Catholics.

Therefore, IMO, the new Pope can and should apologize for his hateful statements. I would be largely impressed if he or other leading clergy would do that.

I do not want him to apologize on behalf of the group he represents, because I owe no apology to any gay man, woman or child personally. I have had gay friends, close ones and acquaintances. I have supported their causes actively. I have spoken out against hate speech. I've never voted for a single political party which is not fully, 100% supportive of gay rights. Therefore, the Pope has no reason to apologize on my behalf. He should apologize for his own ass, and that of the other old farts who share his views - leave the rest of us out of it. We haven't shared his views, and never will.
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:43 PM   #40
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
I think I'll just go to a programmer to get this horrible, violence-causing belief out of my head.
Well I was expecting a much more thoughtful response but whatever.
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Old 04-21-2005, 03:49 PM   #41
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Originally posted by YellowKite
If that isn't the strongest example of the natural occurence of homosexuality in nature, then I have no idea what would convince you that people by and large DO NOT choose to be different, they just ARE.
There have been other examples of homosexuality in the animal kingdom (most recently, there have been stories about gay penguins http://www.jrn.columbia.edu/studentw...-06-10/591.asp ).



Quote:
Originally posted by YellowKite

They apparently kept them because they produced superior fleece.
Of course the gay sheep would have the superior fleece [/sarcasm]
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Old 04-21-2005, 04:02 PM   #42
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Originally posted by Do Miss America


Well I was expecting a much more thoughtful response but whatever.
I wrote that to make a point - it symbolizes my frustration with people who think that people are entitled to their beliefs as long as that belief isn't that homosexuality is wrong; that having that belief contributes to homosexuals being beaten.
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Old 04-21-2005, 04:05 PM   #43
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Originally posted by saltwaterkiss26
Couldn't just stating your believe that homosexuality is wrong make gay people feel like you're putting them on a lower level than you?
Quite frankly, if they think that, it is their problem, not mine.

If I said "I never sin, and the fact that you are a homosexual and do commit sin makes you lower than me and devalues you as a human being", then they would have cause to think that way.

But as it is, I sin also. As does everyone. I don't place myself above anyone.
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Old 04-21-2005, 04:07 PM   #44
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Originally posted by anitram
He apologized for the complicity of the Church during WWII and he was absolutely right to do so. He did not apologize for individual Catholics.

Therefore, IMO, the new Pope can and should apologize for his hateful statements. I would be largely impressed if he or other leading clergy would do that.

I do not want him to apologize on behalf of the group he represents, because I owe no apology to any gay man, woman or child personally. I have had gay friends, close ones and acquaintances. I have supported their causes actively. I have spoken out against hate speech. I've never voted for a single political party which is not fully, 100% supportive of gay rights. Therefore, the Pope has no reason to apologize on my behalf. He should apologize for his own ass, and that of the other old farts who share his views - leave the rest of us out of it. We haven't shared his views, and never will.
I think that when the Pope apologized for the actions of the Church towards Jews during WWII, he was in fact doing so on behalf of Catholics. To me, the way that the Church has treated homosexuals historically requires an apology by its representative - i.e. The Pope - and were that to occur, he would once again be a representative of the group he leads - Catholics.

I don't want to argue against the way you perceive The Pope's actions or statements as leader of the Church, but for me it is like when the President speaks. He is representing Americans and when the Pope speaks he does so for Catholics. I am anti-Bush and resent every stupid thing that he does, or says, that tarnishes our image, but hopefully non-Americans understand that though he speaks as our representative, he doesn't have 100% agreement, as hopefully non-Catholics will realize that though The Pope speaks as their representative, he also doesn't have 100% agreement.

[that was my best example - so hopefully the Bush arguement doesn't detract from what I was trying to say.]

Anyway, no offense meant - I hope none taken.
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Old 04-21-2005, 04:11 PM   #45
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Originally posted by anitram
How can an intangible organization apologize?
It all starts with Pope Benedict XVI.

I'm waiting.

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