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Old 10-23-2002, 12:15 PM   #16
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Quote:
originally posted by ouizy
The Israeli governments doctrine is to demolish the homes of convicted and/or deceased bombers (aka terrorists). Not to make way for Israelis, but to simply punish the criminals and their families if they blow themselves up. This has to be looked at as the opposite of what Saddam Hussein is doing by paying these families $10,000 for what their criminal child has done by blowing themselves up. As for shooting Palestinian children for sport, this is just another example of how you let your feelings take over what you write and allow immature thoughts to come out in your writings. That simply is not true, and is quite offensive.
ouizy, sadly, while the Israeli government's doctrine may be "to demolish the homes of convicted and/or deceased bomber (aka terrorists)" the reality is that random, routine shootings of Palestinian civilians and indeed children by Israeli soldiers and settlers does in fact happen. I have personally talked with people who have witnessed this directly. John Pilger is a very well-known and respected journalist of integrity and he, too, witnessed this, as described in the article I posted above, excerpted here:

Quote:
Israeli soldiers enforcing the illegal occupation of Palestinian land can cause the death of babies and other innocents, or kill them outright, and words such as murder and terrorism are almost never used. The same immunity has been enjoyed by those politicians who design and permit this "routine terrorism," which is the product of a form of colonialism....

When I was passing through Israeli checkpoints last May, there were several of these routine murders. A nurse was one of them. Nine-tenths of Palestinians killed by the Israelis are civilians; 45 per cent are teenagers and children. In Gaza, five years ago, an amusement park opened beside the sea. It was the only one in a deeply impoverished place populated mainly by refugees whose families were forced off their land or out of their villages by the Israelis.

"At first, it was very successful," said Walid Al Dirawi, who looks after the deserted ruin of rusting rides and dodgem cars. "Then the shooting started from across the road. The Israeli settlers and soldiers shot it up every weekend, and of course people stayed away." Behind the dodgems is a wall pock-marked with bullet holes, like a shooting gallery.
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Old 10-23-2002, 12:23 PM   #17
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Joyfulgirl:

As I have never been to the region, I would have to assume that there are scores of Palestinian children shot. Many of which, I am sure are completely innocent. That is wrong. In my mind, no matter where you live, children are innocent.

I am also sure that it is the doctrine of the Israeli army that they have to defend themselves. If a person, be it a child, attacks the soldiers, they have to defend themselves. Hopefully in the children's cases they use anything but live rounds, however, in a gang scenario, that is hard to do.

I simply am against the idea that Israeli soldiers (who by law have to serve) are shooting Palestinian children who are below them in health, wealth, and living standards are being shot for "sport."

No one who is 'innocent' deserves to be harmed in any way...
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Old 10-23-2002, 12:43 PM   #18
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Yes, the Palestine-can-do-no-wrong-and-Israel-is-pure-evil stance is wrong and stupid. I never argued otherwise. My comment about how I would celebrate the guy's death is, well, just an example of the low value I place on human life and an illustration of my negative, cynical nature.

As far as actual content is concerned:

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he was a true leader such as Tony Blair, or even GWBush, he would have this power. He does not.
Therein lies the problem. He does not have the power to control his people. No one does. The Palestinians are acting of their own accord, and Arafat tries to dissuade them, but, realistically, there's nothing he can do. Palestine has no army, no police force, and no real government. It is controlled by Israel, and Israel has all the power. Frankly, if Ariel Sharon hadn't ruined the uncomfortable peace there, they may have been able to work things out, and not so many innocent lives would have been lost.

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Please define "Palestine." Tell me where the origin of the word came from, and what Israel was before it has been recognized by the world as a state for the past 35 or so years...
Palestine is the region the Hebrews flocked to after WWII. The indigenous people of that region were called Palestinians. They were routinely slaughtered and imprisoned for nothing more than trying to live in their home land. The Israelis reason that this is the Promised Land, and they, being descendants from Abraham, are entitled to it. What they don't realize is that many Palestinians are, in fact, also descendants from Abraham, and many converted to other religions. It's a case of religious discrimination. The fact that Israel is surrounded by Islamic nations has no bearing on the morality of this discrimination.

Quote:
The Israeli governments doctrine is to demolish the homes of convicted and/or deceased bombers (aka terrorists). Not to make way for Israelis, but to simply punish the criminals and their families if they blow themselves up. This has to be looked at as the opposite of what Saddam Hussein is doing by paying these families $10,000 for what their criminal child has done by blowing themselves up. As for shooting Palestinian children for sport, this is just another example of how you let your feelings take over what you write and allow immature thoughts to come out in your writings. That simply is not true, and is quite offensive.
Officially, that may be, but in reality, people are removed from their homes at gunpoint, simply for not being Jewish. It's a fact. It happened to a friend of mine. Nothing you say or do can change that. Despite what you may think, Israeli soldiers do shoot Palestinian children for sport. Do i need to show you the pictures of babies with bullet wounds? My thoughts are far from immature. They are based on real factual events. Your denial that none of this actually happens is as offensive to me as the people who insist the Holocaust never happened.

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The indigenous people you refer to were a mix of nomads who existed even before organized religion was established
The indigenous people are the "nomads" and Hebrews who went there back in Biblical times. The land should be theirs, just as the land here should belong to the Native Americans. Just as I can't move into your home and claim it as my own, the Israelis had no right to take over Palestine.

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I beleive that the UN must occupy Israel and the Palestinian territories with troops for a specific period of time while negotiations take place. I believe any infraction of a specific set of rules the UN dictates by EITHER side should have international action taken against them. I do not think these two groups of people can do this by themselves, and there is no reason for the violence to stop at the rate they are going. Both sides deserve better and it is going to take a third party to give this to them.
I agree. At this point, that is the only realistic, reasonable solution. In 1948, when Israel was declared a sovreign nation, they wanted to split the land with the Palestinians. Palestine did not want to give up their land, and Israel took it by force. Ideally, they could have come to a compromise, and I think it's still possible to do so, but such a compromise compromise can only be reached if Israel pulls out of the territory they've been occupying.

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you make me ill
Thanks. Right back at you. I'm not defending suicide bombers. I think killing civilians is never acceptible in war. Nevertheless, suicide bombing is an effective means of warfare. On your standard battlefield, you have roughly equal numbers of soldiers, and the deaths/kills/ ration is pretty small. In other words, say you have 100 soldiers from Country A and 100 soldiers from Country B. For every 5 soldiers Country A kills, they lose about 2. So the ration is 2:5. With suicide bombings, the ratio is different. Suppose you have 1 suicide bomber from Country A and a dozen soldiers from Country B. The bomb goes off, killing 13 people. 13:1. Much more effective. As far as it being an acceptible form of warfare, that's different. It should never be used against civilians.

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I’d like to see you make that statement to the families of suicide bombing victims.
Given the opportunity and proper occasion, I would.
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Old 10-23-2002, 12:44 PM   #19
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Here are a couple of stories from Pilger's website www.johpilger.com that are included in the film. One is an Israeli soldier who now refuses to fight, and the other is the Israeli father of a little girl killed by a suicide bomber. These stories give me hope:

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The soldier's story
Some Israelis have spoken out. More than 500 soldiers have refused to serve in the occupied territories. 'We are', they've said, 'like the Chinese student who stood in front of the tank in Tiananmen Square. We are the conscience of our country'. Ishay Rosen-Zvi is one of them.

"I really think the real story of the occupation is there in the checkpoint. I cannot forget this kind of picture, you know, five in the morning, quarter to five in the morning… hundreds of people waiting, you know, to pass… the checkpoint. And you're standing there. And you see their eyes… the humiliation, the frustration, the hatred.

"Then you are the occupation. You have all the power, they have no power".
Quote:
Rami Elhanan is one Israeli father who knows about suicide bombing. On September 4th 1997, his daughter, Smadar, was killed by one. She was 14 years old. Rami's daughter was shopping with two friends, one of whom was killed, the other seriously injured in the attack.

Rami is a graphic designer and a former soldier. His father survived Auschwitz, but his grandparents, six aunts and uncles perished in the Holocaust.

John Pilger asked Rami, "How do you distinguish the feelings of anger that any father would have felt at losing your daughter in such circumstances?"

"I'm not crazy. I don't forget. I don't forgive. Someone who murders little girls, anyone who murders little girls, is a criminal and should be punished.

"But if you think from the head and not from the gut, and you look what made people do what they do - people that don't have hope, people who are desperate enough to commit suicide, you have to ask yourself have you contributed in any way for this despair? For this craziness? It hasn't come out of the blue: the boy whose mother was humiliated, in the morning, at the checkpoint, will commit suicide in the evening.

"The suicide bomber was a victim - the same as my girl was. Of that I am sure.

"You have to understand where this suicide bombers come from. Understanding is part of the way to solving the problem."
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Old 10-23-2002, 02:12 PM   #20
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Before replying to this, I discussed the topic with someone more versed in this subject than me, as I really wanted to inquire more about historical facts, than opinions.

The indigenous people of Palestine were Cananites. Palestine only became a real word during the reign of the Ottoman empire. nobody even identified themselves as Palestinian until the 1950s. Before that they were simply considered Arabs. The land of Israel was a Jewish state beginning about 1,000 years B.C. The Jews only dispersed in the year 70 AD because they were defeated by the Romans. The area did become controlled by Muslims around 700 AD or so and was part of the Ottoman empire.

The Arabs never claimed that Israel is theirs because they were indigenous people--they claimed it as an Islamic land. Muhammed wasn't even born until the 600s, which makes their claim really ridiculous.

In addition, Jews did not start going to Israel after WWII. Jews gradually started going back to Israel after the Spanish Inquisition in 1492. The big immigration started in the 1880s and 90s. The British who took control of the region after WWI promised the Jews a homeland in Israel. The Arabs were so upset, they ended up siding with Hitler.

The problem right now is that the Palestinians and Arabs agreed to negotiate for a final settlement peacefully and ended up w/ a deal that would give them 95% of the West Bank, all of Gaza, and a capital in part of Jerusalem. That wasn't good enough for them so then they started up again with the violence.

It seems one side is "re-negging" on an agreement, and is doing so by blowing up innocent people. I think we all agree the violence has to stop, however, to base claims on a land that never rightfully belonged to a group of people is incorrect.

This reminds me of a story I recently saw about a skull and bones that were found on the west coast of the US. It is believed by scientists that the bones actually predated those of the Native Americans. This would mean that the argument that the Anglo-Saxons took the land from the Native Americans was not accurate as there was a people here years before the Native Americans. As it turned out, the Native Americans won a lawsuit that immediately replced the bones into the ground and was covered up by the US Army Corps of Engineers, before it could have been proven that they were not the original settlers here.

If Mohammed was born in the 600's, what basis do the Palestinians have for justifying that they were the original habitants of that land?
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Old 10-23-2002, 02:35 PM   #21
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Originally posted by joyfulgirl
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Israeli soldiers enforcing the illegal occupation of Palestinian land

I think this highlights the fact that even a well-known respected journalist approaches the Israel-Palestine issue with a bias. Mr. Pilger is not a judge nor has the power to declare what is illegal.

I believe we should start, as Ouizy’s post suggests, with a greater understanding of the historical context of the current situation. It is a far greater value in understanding the current conflict that various antidotal accounts.

If anything, this thread, and Ouizy’s posts, have prompted me to study the history of the region in greater detail.
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Old 10-23-2002, 03:32 PM   #22
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i think the main fact is that the area used to be occupied by a mix of muslims and jews. there were however more muslims than jews and technically the area was under muslim control. most israeli's living in israel right now are not NATIVE peoples, they are european immigrants. therefore the palestinians being NATIVE and not from other places in the middle east have more claim to the land regardless of the actual ownage.
looking at history you can also deduct that the british gave land they did not own to the Jewish people. who are the british to promise jews a piece of land in the middle east they did not even own?
the british overlooked the fact that the area, even though being barren, was inhabited by people. they just thought of the area as this empty place they can repay the jews with after the extreme antisematism occuring in the europe and the highlight of that, the holocaust. you can even be more cynical and say that the british gave the jews israel because they wanted them out of europe.

this issue runs a lot deeper than religion.
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Old 10-23-2002, 03:50 PM   #23
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they just thought of the area as this empty place they can repay the jews with after the extreme antisematism occuring in the europe and the highlight of that, the holocaust.

agreed.


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...you can even be more cynical and say that the british gave the jews israel because they wanted them out of europe.
doubtful.
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Old 10-23-2002, 04:16 PM   #24
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Originally posted by nbcrusader


I think this highlights the fact that even a well-known respected journalist approaches the Israel-Palestine issue with a bias. Mr. Pilger is not a judge nor has the power to declare what is illegal.
The U.N. has repeatedly, year after year, declared the occupation illegal.
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Old 10-23-2002, 06:54 PM   #25
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Cannibalisticartist,

It is a fact that an area of land that now has over 7 million people only had 400,000 back in 1890. I'm refering to Israel/Palestine. In 1890, Israel/Palestine was OWNED by the Ottoman Empire! The land was over 90% Muslim, but there were significant number of Jews and Christians. The Ottoman Empire approved Jewish emigration all the way until its end in World War I. Going back to the population level in 1890, 400,000, what this means is that most of the land was unoccupied. Certainly a Palestinian, Christian, Jew had a right to their house or business and the land it was on, but what about all that empty land to the south or certain area's on the coast, that would be government land, the government being the Ottoman Empire!

At the end of World War I the Ottoman Empire was no more. Suddenly there was no government or country. Certainly indviduals have a right to the land that live on, where their house or business would be, but most the land in the area was unoccupied land formely owned by the government of the Ottoman Empire. The end of the Ottoman Empire meant that unoccupied formely Ottoman government land became available to ANYONE willing to colonize it.

The British may not of handled the situation from 1917 to 1947 in the best way, but the fact of the matter is, in the absense of the Ottoman Empire, states had to be formed in this area, and certainly Jews, as well as Muslims and Christians had every right to create their own states based on the land they were living on. Why should any Jew be forced to live in a Muslim state when he has been living on certain land all his life. The UN compromise of 1948 was fair and gave the Jews the land they were living on and the "Palestinians" the land they were living on. The Israely state was cut into 3 parts and the "Palestinian state was fully connected. A fair agreement that Israel accepted. The "Palestinians" and 5 Arab countries did not and brutally invaded Israel to wipe it from the face of the earth on the first day of its independence.

In the diffucult fighting that followed, despite the odds against them, the Jewish soldiers pushed the Arab invaders back and did come into possession of more land than the original UN agreement. More than 70% of the Muslims living on this land left before the Jews arrived. Only 10% were kicked out of their houses by Jews. Of Course this fact has been falsly extrapolated to include all the Muslims living there along with the myth that all Jews arrived in Israel in 1948 and literally took over the homes of Muslims.

15% of Muslims stayed and today form 20% of the people in the land Israel legally owns. These Muslims today are the only Muslims that live in the region in a true democracy. Arab women have more rights and better access to education in Israel than any Arab country in the world! The West Bank and Gaza(taken control of in the 1967 war) are a different story but it should be noted that Israel has agreed to withdraw from these territories once a peace treaty is signed, just like they did with Egypt back in 1979. Israel has NEVER annexed the West Bank and Gaza and has no intention of doing so. Non-violent action and peaceful negotiation or the only tools that have the chance of accomplishing Palestinians goals of statehood.

Terrorist bombings by Palestinians are almost never directed against IDF soldiers on the West Bank and Gaza, but are directed against targets like Teens in Disco's perhaps listening to U2. SICK terribly SICK, and equally stupid as well! Rather than reducing the number of IDF soldiers on the West Bank and Gaza, the terrorist bombings have only led to a massive increase 5 fold and perhaps more of IDF troops in the occupied territories! It has led to strict curfews. In addition the terrorist choose to base themselves in heavily populated area's meaning that any attempt to bring them to justice has the potential to create civilian losses among the people they are supposedly trying to defend. There are many area's outside of the refugee camps in the hills that the terrorist could base themselves, but they choose to cowardly hide behind the people they claim to defend much like terrorist in other parts of the world.

Israel is a democracy and a country of laws as is the USA. Its this fact about the USA that helped lead the civil rights movement for African Americans to victory in the USA. You think the Palestinians have it rough, think about what African Americans have had to go through to achieve civil rights. Yet, they succeeded in their goals with non-violent action because the US laws, government, and population were suceptible to such action unlike dictatorships. Non-violent action is the only way Palestinians will succeed in their goals as well. Israel is a democracy with a well educated citizenry and would respond in kind to non-violent action and peaceful negotiation, but it does take time and patience, but its the only way Palestinians can achieve their goals. Bombing a disco filled with teens listening to U2 has no chance of helping to achieve a Palestinian state. Someone with intelligence needs to take charge in Palestine so they may eventually achieve a state of their own through non-violent action and stop the DUMB boneheaded use of suicide bombings killing innocent women and childern that accomplishes nothing and has been a total failure in helping to achieve a Palestinian State.

I should remind people here that fighting in urban situations can produce unintended civilian losses including those of childern. The IDF does not target women and childern or any innocent civilian unlike Palestinian terrorist who do just that in Israel. Gruesome pictures that many talked of here are the result of intense and confused urban fighting rather than executions. Just like the claims of a massacre at Jenin were false so are most of these claims of IDF abuses. There were claims by some Muslims and organizations that reached 7,000 dead in Jenin. After a complete investigation it was found that only 48 had died. This would not have happened if the terrorist had 1. given up 2. not decided to base themselves in the center of a refugee camp.
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Old 10-23-2002, 07:48 PM   #26
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But if you think from the head and not from the gut, and you look what made people do what they do
So what exactly has made Israel do what they have done?

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this issue runs a lot deeper than religion.
That line is dead on. This issue runs alot deeper then religion. Let us see if we can come close to how deep it is...

Not George Lucas has commented several times about what has happened to a friend of his....
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Officially, that may be, but in reality, people are removed from their homes at gunpoint, simply for not being Jewish. It's a fact. It happened to a friend of mine. Nothing you say or do can change that.
Nothing can change that, but imagine if you will what it would be like to be removed from your home at gun point, seperated from your family, forced into slavery until you died or were simply killed, and your body thrown onto a pile of fellow people who had the samething happen to them and then your body burned in front of other prisoners. Imgaine being removed from your home just to be exterminated.

If you were to do a comparison; whatever wrongs the Israelies have commited against Palistinians since the British gave them Israel (even if it wasn't the theirs to give) is a spec of dust in comparison to the atrocities commited against the Jewish people. Violent acts that have been going on for centuries, against them.

In truth there is virtually no period in history where the Jews have not been persicuted. With exception of the spread of Christianity when Judaism was more accepted, they have never known an extended period of peace. You would be hard press to find a place where they are truely accepted. And lets not forget or deny the Holocost. That nearly brought the extinction of their entire people. And they have endured the atrocities time and time and time and time again. They have always stayed strong and kept faith in their religion and their beilefs. For some it was the promise of the Holy land that kept them going. The promise of a land where they could be at peace. So it is something much deeper then simple dirt or space they are fighting for.

Now with all that being said, I in no way justify what Israel is doing to Palestine. My point is not to justify but to understand why they would do such a thing. I believe it is ethicly wrong to forcibly remove people from their homes or hunt them down for sport, but far worse has been do to the people of Israel.

A good analogy of the possible roots to this situation is an abused child that grows up to abuse his chidren. Hate is something learned and their have been countless times when the Jews have been experienced nothing but hate. Maybe they are taking actions that they have experienced before?

As it stands now both Israel and Palistine have legitamate claims to that land. Britian, America and most of Europe holds a large share of the responsibility for what is going on in the middle east. The UN has an obligation to step help both sides reach a reasonable compromise that will make both sides happy so now people have to die out there. To be honest it doesn't matter where the Jewish people wish to settle, I think the whole world owes it to them to at least share.

I don't mean to offend anyone or justify anything. I was simply trying to understand why things are happening there.
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Old 10-23-2002, 11:04 PM   #27
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STING, when the Jews wanted to start a nation of Israel, they did not consult the other people that lived there, they asked the british, who did not care about the region one bit and declared the place theirs when people were already living there. that's just not fair.
did you know that different places were offered the the Jews to make a nation of Israel? i don't recall the name, but a place in Africa was proposed by a british Jew. this was a matter of the british playing around with land that they occupied by force or by chance, and they had no care in the world for the people that already lived there.
believe it or not, the settlements were sucessful at first, but then the mass immigration after the holocaust made things shift to bad. these were educated, white, european Jews coming from places like russia and having to live with brown, muslim peasants. they were just not used to living in these situations. the Europeans were used to buying/selling land and property. these peasants were used to barter and inheritance. there was a HUGE error is communication.
even though i do not believe the formation of Israel to be pure colonization, you have to understand these poor peasants probably believed it to be this way. Even The original indegnious Jews were also against this mass immigration but they were peasants too, and were overpowered.
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Old 10-23-2002, 11:37 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Not George Lucas
Practically speaking, suicide bombing is an effective way of getting rid of invaders.
I would like to request some clarification from you on this statement.

Are you saying that suicide bombing will influence the Israelis to pull out of occupied areas, thus getting rid of the invaders? If so, it doesn't seem to be effective to this point.

Or, are you saying that blowing up kids in a disco or diners in a pizza restaurant is likely to remove some invading Israelis from existence, thus getting rid of invaders? Who are the suicide bombers to know for certain that all, or most, of the patrons of Sabarro and the disco had settled in occupied areas?

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Old 10-24-2002, 12:08 AM   #29
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Some more clarification I need to ask of Not George Lucas and joyfulgirl:

Not George Lucas tells us that Palestine has no military or police force:

Quote:
Originally posted by Not George Lucas
Palestine has no army, no police force, and no real government.
And joyfulgirl quotes from the Pilger article:

Quote:
Originally posted by joyfulgirl


Nine-tenths of Palestinians killed by the Israelis are civilians;
If Palestine has no army, then wouldn't ALL of the Palestinians who are killed by the Israelis be classified as "civilians"?

Okay, secondly, the Palestinians do have a local security force that operates under the Palestinian Authority, of which Yasser Arafat is the chairman. Obviously, it is not a military of the standards of Israel, but it is a police force and sometimes they do take action in bringing in responsible terrorists. They are too selective in doing so.

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Old 10-24-2002, 12:26 AM   #30
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I will say just the following on the topic and I will leave it alone.




1.) the problems in palestine arent' just the fault of the israelis...other than criticizing the US and trying to kill US civilians the arab world hasn't lifted a finger to help the palestinian ppl..the only country in the mid east that lets palestinians settle there is jordan..A US ally.


2.) Ariel Sharon is a war criminal...and a pathetic excuse fora man...let alone a leader.


3.) arafat...may comdemn terror attacks....but..I can do that too from my home in NY.....the man doesn't do jack. ...he's by far worse than sharon..and that's not a weak statement



4.) I have a lot of sympathy for palestinians...but they have to realize that terror bombings aren't helping things at all...it's only setting back the establishment of teh palestinian state and progress for the ppl of palestine


5.) Israel needs to comply with UN resolutions. But honestly..those lands captured in 1967....were taken in a war..and if you fight a war..you run the risk of losing land. prior to the conflict in 1967...the arab world opnely declared its intent to eliminate israelis by means of genocide. But like I said...israel needs to comply with the resolutions...not cos it's right but because it's part of the peace process.
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