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Old 04-02-2015, 10:52 PM   #961
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Indiana governor signs amended 'religious freedom' law

So is the amended version sufficient?
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:09 PM   #962
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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post

What religion forbids interracial marriage?
Yours did just not so long ago... It's one of the reasons Baptists have split in so many different sections.

You're ignoring the facts. Read the law, it does allow discrimination, this law goes beyond religious freedom.
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:10 PM   #963
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No and yes

Pizza lady can no longer tell gay people her religious beliefs prevent her from making gay wedding pizza cake.

But she can fire employee for being gay

She lost part of her religious rights
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:11 PM   #964
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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post
This law does is not about discrimination. Discrimination is against the law.

This law is about giving a person their chance in court to show why they have refused to participate in an activity because of their religious beliefs.

What religion forbids interracial marriage?

A Muslim refusing to serve my wife, based on her appearance, would be discrimination. My wife requesting the Muslim baker to bake a cake embellished with a degrading image of Mohammed would be forcing the Muslim to go against his religious convictions.

That is what the law is about.



I don't think you have any understanding of the law itself.

You do realize that Christianity was used as justification for anti-miscegenation laws well into the 1960s, yes?

A wedding cake is a wedding cake. It's a specific product. Refusing to sell a gay person a wedding cake is discrimination, legally, in a state that has sexual orientation as a protected class. That status does not exist in Indiana. No gay person could ever sue a baker, or even their employer, for discrimination on the basis of orientation.

Why is this law even necessary in the state of Indiana?
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:28 PM   #965
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It could also be legal for a Muslim baker to refuse to seve your wife unless she is wearing a burka.
So, I brought this up in conversation today with a few friends of mine, and one of them who is male and gay could not see how that was discrimination. He considered it that guy's religious right not to serve me. The irony made very, very confused.

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What religion forbids interracial marriage?
The one my uncle, the preacher of my church, still seems to follow when he wouldn't marry my white cousin to her black fiance? They were married by my other cousin instead (the one who got into an argument with my mother at Church Sunday about this current law, lest I let him off the hook too much). Both of them are pastors at my church. Both of them are Baptists.
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:30 PM   #966
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Do you agree that a Muslim baker who refuses to bake a cake embellished with a degrading image of Mohammed should be fined and/or time in jail?
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:34 PM   #967
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post

A Muslim refusing to serve my wife, based on her appearance, would be discrimination. My wife requesting the Muslim baker to bake a cake embellished with a degrading image of Mohammed would be forcing the Muslim to go against his religious convictions.

That is what the law is about.

What if your wife requested a plain old regular wedding cake from a Muslim bakery? Would the Muslim baker be okay to deny that request because the wedding was not a Muslim wedding?

It's telling that the examples you're using are extreme - a swastika cake or a degrading Mohammed cake are hardly applicable hypotheticals to this situation.

It's not a matter of denying someone a cake that displays offensive imagery, it's a matter of denying someone a regular cake that you would happily sell to the next customer. That's where this law absolutely is about discrimination.
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:43 PM   #968
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Do you agree that a Muslim baker who refuses to bake a cake embellished with a degrading image of Mohammed should be fined and/or time in jail?



It doesn't matter. There is nothing legally protected about someone who wants to buy a cake with a degrading depiction of Mohammad. Do you understand that point?

What would be illegal would be if the Muslim baker would refuse to make a cake for a woman.
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:47 PM   #969
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A better question
A Muslim baker is requested to bake a cake with the images of Jesus, Buddha and Mahomet for a non denominational service club.
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:50 PM   #970
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What if your wife requested a plain old regular wedding cake from a Muslim bakery? Would the Muslim baker be okay to deny that request because the wedding was not a Muslim wedding?

It's telling that the examples you're using are extreme - a swastika cake or a degrading Mohammed cake are hardly applicable hypotheticals to this situation.

It's not a matter of denying someone a cake that displays offensive imagery, it's a matter of denying someone a regular cake that you would happily sell to the next customer. That's where this law absolutely is about discrimination.

It is highly unlikely a Muslim baker would deny a request for "a plain old regular wedding cake".

He might if the request was for a same-sex marriage cake.

If he did, I would support his right to do so.
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Old 04-02-2015, 11:56 PM   #971
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The Gay Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post
It is highly unlikely a Muslim baker would deny a request for "a plain old regular wedding cake".



He might if the request was for a same-sex marriage cake.



If he did, I would support his right to do so.


Which he can do in Indiana. Long before this legislative nonsense ever came along.

He can't do that in New Mexico or Colorado.

Most of these scenarios are unlikely. The list of poor, persecuted bakers and florists and photographers can be counted on one hand. Most people are adults and realize that business is business.

Would you support his right to refuse to sell a cake (any cake) to a woman if his religion forbade him from economic transactions with females? What if he were a B&B owner and refused to rent a room to an unmarried heterosexual couple because his religion forbade him from facilitating premarital sexual intercourse?
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Old 04-03-2015, 12:07 AM   #972
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post
It is highly unlikely a Muslim baker would deny a request for "a plain old regular wedding cake".

He might if the request was for a same-sex marriage cake.

If he did, I would support his right to do so.
Two questions:

But would you support their right if he denied you and your wife a Christian marriage cake?

Would you support him if he denied your Christian family member employment?
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Old 04-03-2015, 12:14 AM   #973
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The fact that there are so many problematic questions and scenarios to pull from this is a sign that we're discussing a horrendous piece of legislation. Morally right or wrong, it's a poorly-worded mess.
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Old 04-03-2015, 01:05 AM   #974
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Can I be polygamous if my religion allows it?
Can I drop LSD if my religion allows it?
Can I dance naked on the steps of the Capitol when there's a full moon if my religion allows it?
May I refuse drug tests of my religion allows it?
Am I now free to marry my sibling if my religion allows it?
Am I free to marry a 13 year old if my religion allows it? (Her parents are fine with it, they believe too).





Or do we only want freedom for one religion to discriminate against one particular group of people?
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Old 04-03-2015, 01:12 AM   #975
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Angie's List (ANGI) rejected the compromise, becoming the first major Indiana company to do so.

"Our position is that this 'fix' is insufficient," said Bill Oesterle, CEO of Angie's List."There was no repeal of RFRA and no end to discrimination of homosexuals in Indiana."

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