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Old 07-08-2014, 02:00 PM   #586
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Exactly.

There's an agenda both ways. I'm sure there is non biased research out there, but you won't see it being reported on.


no. there is no equivalent to something like the Regnerus study. there really aren't "sides," there's just good research and bad research.

as for non-biased research, every credible medical and psychological and child welfare organization has stated that children do as well with same-sex as with opposite-sex parents. they base this on the credible research available.
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Old 07-08-2014, 02:07 PM   #587
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No what? I'm not sure what you're no'ing.

I'm aware of how research works, and unfortunately with social sciences there's a lot more room for induction of bias. Whether or not it's *wrong* like what you've posted is another story, but that's not even a credible experiment.

All I'm saying is, if I were conducting such research or if you were conducting such research, there would be a difficult time executing, investigating, and concluding upon the hypothesis that gay couples make worse families. You wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it. Because we don't believe that, from the get go.
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Old 07-08-2014, 03:33 PM   #588
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i don't think there's an "agenda" both ways. that's all.
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Old 07-08-2014, 03:37 PM   #589
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Sure there is. Don't be biased. Of course there are progressive individuals who want to show the other side.

I'm not saying every time you see something you side with, it's biased. I'm just saying that there are irresponsible people in research, especially in social sciences, because there is no imperial proof one way or another.
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Old 07-08-2014, 03:40 PM   #590
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It's not irresponsibility, it's human nature.
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Old 07-08-2014, 03:50 PM   #591
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Sure there is. Don't be biased. Of course there are progressive individuals who want to show the other side.

I'm not saying every time you see something you side with, it's biased. I'm just saying that there are irresponsible people in research, especially in social sciences, because there is no imperial proof one way or another.


of course. i should modify -- i don't think there's always an agenda.
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Old 07-12-2014, 05:37 PM   #592
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Congratulations, Ian Thorpe. It does get better.

The closet could have killed you.


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Old 07-15-2014, 02:55 PM   #593
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i'm predisposed to care about this story more than most others, but i think it's a significant one, and psychologically much more interesting than Michael Sam.

if you had to name the three best swimmers in history, he'd likely make the cut behind Phelps and Spitz, and he is Australia's most decorated Olympian in a country that traditionally overachieves at the Olympics. Martina Navratilova aside, he's the most "successful" out athlete i can think of, and has the additional burden of being a gay male in the sporting world.

his continual denials through the years -- when it was utterly obvious to pretty much anybody who paid any attention, the gay blogs have posted pictures of him vacationing with his "housemate" in Brazil -- is disappointing, but it also shows just how ingrained homophobia is and, more importantly, given Thorpe's recent struggles with alcohol and depression, the enormous consequences and costs of coming out. although, what's also heartening about the situation is how positive the reaction has been -- the only negative commentary i've heard has been from the gay community, which has expressed some of the "why not sooner/where were you when i was 15 and struggling."

it's a complicated thing, and Thorpe seems a complex, intelligent, sensitive man.

if swimming has a "best" journalist, it's easily Craig Lord. and here's what he had to say about this topic:

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THE BIGGER ISSUES ON IAN THORPE: HEALTH, HAPPINESS, DEPRESSION, LONELINESS & MORE

July 13, 2014 - Craig Lord

It was 1998 when I sat down for a first face-to-face chat with Ian Thorpe in the quiet of a low-key moment away from the supertroupers and the media mixed zone in a seating area just off the deck at the Barcelona round of the Mare Nostrum tour. He was 15 – and already a world champion.

His very obvious talent in the water was not the only aspect of this gangly youth that stood out: he brimmed and bubbled with keen intelligence, an interest in the width and depth of things well beyond the pool, a quiet confidence, hope, promise, a sparkle in eye, a spring in his step and a love of life on the road in Australia kit. Here was one of the most thrilling athletic prospects you could wish to meet.

In time, the machine would take over and the bubble was what the boy lived in. It all came with towering success, founded in his work with coach Doug Frost. Surrounded by advisers of one kind or another as the chapters wrote themselves, Thorpe became (too) acutely aware of what he should say, what he might reveal, what message people might want to hear. Some of that has played out in dark ways since.

Today, in a TV interview with Michael Parkinson for Channel 10 in Australia, Australia’s most decorated Olympian confirmed the news: he is gay.

In an emotional interview this evening Down Under, the five-times Olympic gold medallist held back tears as he made the admission to British journalist Parkinson:

“I’ve thought about this for a long time. I’m not straight. And this is only something that very recently, we’re talking the past two weeks, I’ve been comfortable telling the closest people around me, exactly that.”

“I felt the lie had become so big that I didn’t want people to question my integrity,” he added. “And a little bit of ego comes into this; I didn’t want people to question … have I lied about everything?”

“I’m comfortable saying I’m a gay man. And I don’t want young people to feel the same way that I did. You can grow up, you can be comfortable and you can be gay.”

Thorpe noted his circumstance and prevailing culture: ”The problem was I was asked at such a young age about my sexuality. I went to an all boys school … so if you’re accused of being gay, the first answer is no and you get ready for a fight.”

Part of his reluctance to come out, he said, was fear of letting his family and his fans down.

“I wanted to make my family proud. I wanted to make my nation proud of me. And part of me didn’t know if Australia wanted its champion to be gay. But I’m telling not only Australia … I’m telling the world, that I am.”

Honour him. He is a man of truth. A man potentially saved from the depression, the loneliness, the darkness of living life according to the expectations of others. For some, such things have ended with the very end of life. Thorpey endured – and a brighter future beckons.

Back to 1998 and I recall private conversations with media colleagues in which the issue of sexuality was raised. Swimming had no “gay people”, said one. Of course it did, said a reporter from the Sydney Morning Herald before citing Daniel Kowalski and Ian Thorpe (well shy of coming of age) and concluding “they just don’t know it yet”. It didn’t strike me as untrue at the time (nor did we know it to be true) – and for most of Thorpe’s career many have assumed it might well be the case but couldn’t have cared less.

It struck me as “private” and irrelevant, something not even close to making any list of things by which we can measure the mettle of the athlete and their status in the thread of history in the realm of my interest: swimming.

In 2014, the relevance of sports stars speaking openly about their preference or nature is as clear as the right to stay silent if that is what the individual wants. The decision comes down to just how long a young person, particularly one in the media spotlight as Thorpe was, can keep the lid on the pressure cooker of publicity, innuendo and the unhealthy state of living behind a veil for fear of consequence.

Kowalski is a pioneer in Australian swimming, not only in the pool. Inspired by Welsh rugby player Gareth Thomas, he told the Australian public that he was gay four years after he told his family.

In 2010, Daniel Kowalski said: “Things pop in my head that make me realise that I clearly suppressed these thoughts of being gay … because it was ‘wrong’, as a male it’s ‘wrong’ but even more as an elite athlete.

“I always knew that I lacked confidence when I stood up on the blocks and I do wonder sometimes if that lack of confidence was fear – fear of not really knowing who I am.

“On the sporting side, I lost to some amazing champions, so I’m not for a second saying that this is the reason I didn’t win. I often wonder if the lack of self-confidence and lack of identity in many ways held me back from reaching my potential.”

In the pool, Kowalski claimed Olympic relay gold in 2000, after a silver and two bronzes from 1,500m down through 400m and 200m respectively at the 1996 Olympic Games. Among many prizes in his career, he holds the honour of having won the first two world s/c titles over 400m and 1,500m freestyle in 1993 and 1995.

In 2010 he said that he was not expecting more athletes to come out in the wake of his story. ”I just want them to realise that they are not alone, that the feelings that they have are probably quite common and that at the end of the day it’s really OK. There will be hard times, but you surround yourself with great, supportive people who love you for you and you’ll be OK.”

And that’s the good news on Thorpe. On a personal level, truth and taking pride in who he is, may well be the best cure there could be for the depression he has endured. By now, he will surely be aware of the outpouring of social-media love for him. His status in the pool, in the Olympic realm, is unaffected (if anything, it is enhanced by the context we can now openly put to the struggle at the heart of his journey and achievement).

“I’ve wanted to (come out) for some time but I couldn’t, I didn’t feel as though I could,” he tells Parkinson. “What happened was I felt the lie had become so big that I didn’t want people to question my integrity.”

Thorpe said that constant questions about his sexuality, starting from the age of 16, had contributed to guarding his personal life. He had also been discouraged by homophobic taunts from the public.

Earlier this year, Thorpe was admitted to hospital to treat depression after he was found disoriented in Sydney. Part of that was down to a broken shoulder and the realisation that his swimming days were done.

“I had a tremendous reality check… that I have to be realistic with my expectations… that I may never swim again,” he tells Parkinson. “It’s tough because I want to be able to swim again.”

And swimming had been an escape from other burdens.

A lack of full acceptance when young people reveal that they prefer their own sex to the opposite, has seen generations of folk suffer depression and loneliness.

Thorpe admitted a big part of his reticence was that “being gay: would not fit into his image as “Australia’s champion”.

“I was trying to be what I thought was the right athlete by other people’s standards. I wanted to make my family proud, I wanted to make my nation proud,” he said. ”Part of me didn’t know if Australia wanted it’s champion to be gay. I hope it makes this easier for others now. Even if you hold it in for years, it feels better to lift this and get out.

“People will criticise me, some people won’t like the idea other people may applaud me for it, but it’s me.”

As Thorpe suggests, this is also about stereotypes. I recall my own sister returning from the Universiade, where she swam for Britain on butterfly many years ago, and recanting a tale from the back seat of a shuttle bus: two handsome hulks of athletic build and honing fit to make Adonis blush sat alongside her and a fellow member of the women’s team but just as they were about to strike up a conversation and see where it might go, the two men started kissing. Game over, another game on – and amused smiles exchanged between all parties.

The world of sport is a world stacked with hard-working folk like Kowalski and Thorpe, Mark Tewksbury and others. Their sexuality is irrelevant to a level of commitment, drive, dedication and discipline that would knock for six with a feather the masculinity of locker-room bloke and his mates. Their sexuality is relevant for the very reasons cited by Kowalski in a world of attitudes and prejudices sometimes slow to change.

Thorpe’s revelations come on a weekend that delivered confirmation of homophobic feelings at the top of the media tree in Australia.

Channel 7 announced that one of its leading commentators, Brian Taylor, is to undergo counselling after he called Geelong premiership star Harry Taylor a “big poofter” on national television on Saturday night.

Taylor, the commentator, made his old-style bloke’s locker-room remark after footage was shown of the AFL player giving a wave to the crowd that could be described as “royal” as he was being chaired off the ground after his 150th game last week.

“I don’t know whether you guys down there can hear me or not. I am up here getting ready for the game and I’ve just seen that c–p from Harry — he’s a big poofter, I mean give them this one Harry,” Taylor said as he made a rude gesture. “You can’t be doing the old royal wave. Next thing you’ll have your mum and dad out there.”

The comments were met with laughter from some of the Channel 7 panel for the match commentary, including well-known names Down Under, Cameron Ling and Luke Darcy. Both were promptly slammed on social media.

Despite calls for Taylor to be sacked, the commentator will be back on air next week after apologising for the jibe.

Channel 7 managing director Lewis Martin said the comments were “unacceptable and should not and will not be tolerated”, adding:

“Brian has been censured, and will be supported through counselling and education to ensure this mistake will never happen again.”

Australian print and online media ran polls asking if Taylor should be sacked as AFL spokesman Patrick Keane noted that if a player had used the same term during a game he would face action under the rules of its National Vilification and Discrimination Policy.

In his statement, Martin said Taylor “made a comment he sincerely regrets and unreservedly apologises for”.

“It goes to the core of the problem that we have in this country,” Andrew Purchas, founder of the Sydney Convicts rugby club, told the Sydney Morning Herald. “The connotation of Brian Taylor’s comments was that [Harry Taylor] was doing something weak and unmasculine.”

The casual slur undermines aspiring gay athletes and prevents many from coming out until after their careers are done and dusted, Purchas suggested. “Casual homophobia does have negative consequences and an impact,” he said. “There is an obvious reason that many athletes don’t come out until they retire. There is clearly a perception that it’s going to damage your career.”

That ought never to be the case. It is July 13, 2014 – a fine day, and a brand new day, for Ian Thorpe and for all who have a right to be who they are and lead healthy and happy lives.

A champion in the pool – and in life. The last word to Thorpey, who said today in the flood of support from around the world:

“To everyone who has sent a message of support I sincerely thank you!”
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Old 07-15-2014, 03:48 PM   #594
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I hope Thorpe finds the peace he's been looking for for a long while.
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Old 07-15-2014, 09:52 PM   #595
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I'm really annoyed by the people berating him for "lying" to the public. He was under phenomenal pressure, he was essentially carrying the hopes and dreams of a nation by himself and he wasn't even 18 yet. He's not the first person to hide or lie about their sexuality and the reasons to me seem to be pretty clear. It would have been incredibly, unimaginably difficult for him, and the people who are saying that he lied and he somehow owed the public the truth can just fuck right off.

While that article continues the great American journalistic tradition of being needlessly long, it's a very good read. I was watching the game on Saturday night when Brian Taylor dropped that line. He apologised to Harry's friends and family, oblivious to the fact that he should have been apologising to everyone for using a homophobic slur, and that the damage is caused to the gay community, not really Harry Taylor. And he still didn't get it when he was asked on radio a few days later. No wonder it's so hard for gay athletes to come out.
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Old 07-15-2014, 11:18 PM   #596
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I'm really annoyed by the people berating him for "lying" to the public. He was under phenomenal pressure, he was essentially carrying the hopes and dreams of a nation by himself and he wasn't even 18 yet. He's not the first person to hide or lie about their sexuality and the reasons to me seem to be pretty clear. It would have been incredibly, unimaginably difficult for him, and the people who are saying that he lied and he somehow owed the public the truth can just fuck right off.

While that article continues the great American journalistic tradition of being needlessly long, it's a very good read. I was watching the game on Saturday night when Brian Taylor dropped that line. He apologised to Harry's friends and family, oblivious to the fact that he should have been apologising to everyone for using a homophobic slur, and that the damage is caused to the gay community, not really Harry Taylor. And he still didn't get it when he was asked on radio a few days later. No wonder it's so hard for gay athletes to come out.
Part of the problem - part, I say, certainly not all of it - is that people are encouraged to have this idea that they get to own celebrities' private lives, or that celebrities, because of the financial stakes involved, don't get to be human beings.
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Old 07-16-2014, 12:37 AM   #597
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Billy Bean hired by Major League Baseball as Ambassador For Inclusion, will lead gay inclusion program - Outsports
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Old 07-17-2014, 01:44 PM   #598
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Gay Marriage is now legal in Florida (...Keys) But only a matter of time before it spreads upwards though.
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Old 07-17-2014, 06:54 PM   #599
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It's only legal in the Keys? Does it go county-by-county in FL?

More pressingly, how the hell wasn't it legal before this in the Keys? I was in Key West in January and it's probably the gayest place I've ever been outside of the Church & Wellesley area in Toronto.
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Old 07-17-2014, 07:37 PM   #600
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It's only legal in the Keys? Does it go county-by-county in FL?

More pressingly, how the hell wasn't it legal before this in the Keys? I was in Key West in January and it's probably the gayest place I've ever been outside of the Church & Wellesley area in Toronto.

If the appeals court upholds the decision from Monroe County, it is legitimized statewide.
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