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Old 03-06-2004, 06:44 PM   #121
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


That about sums it up for me.
I have more fun when we disagree

peace
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Old 03-06-2004, 06:50 PM   #122
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The Bible is a mix of precepts and commands. A command is like a "Speed Limit 35" sign. A precept is like a "Drive Carefully" sign.

I was arguing that by treating the Bible as a conceptual book, we turn the commands into precepts.
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Old 03-06-2004, 06:53 PM   #123
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Originally posted by Dreadsox


I have more fun when we disagree

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Ok then... you're wrong.
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Old 03-06-2004, 06:53 PM   #124
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Originally posted by Dreadsox
Should the Ten Commandments be taken literally or not?

My belief is that there are LITERAL truths to be found inside of the book. However, there are also parts that are impossible to be taken literally.
I also agree.

I'm not sure anyone has argued that every word of the Bible must be taken literally. Jesus often spoke in parables or used illustrations in His teaching. Prophecy is often intertwined with symbolic language to describe future events.
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Old 03-06-2004, 06:56 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader
The Bible is a mix of precepts and commands. A command is like a "Speed Limit 35" sign. A precept is like a "Drive Carefully" sign.

I was arguing that by treating the Bible as a conceptual book, we turn the commands into precepts.
So NBC is it your belief that everything SHOULD be taken literally? Do you believe there is no man "sneaking" their own twists in or conceptual stories used.
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Old 03-06-2004, 07:01 PM   #126
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Did you read his last post...hehe!!!! Bonovox?
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Old 03-06-2004, 07:05 PM   #127
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Did you read his last post...hehe!!!! Bonovox?
Yes I apologize we posted at the same time...

*stupid internet timing*
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Old 03-06-2004, 07:09 PM   #128
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I have dine it before too!

LOL
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Old 03-06-2004, 07:14 PM   #129
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
Do you believe there is no man "sneaking" their own twists in or conceptual stories used.
This happens all the time. An example would be when precepts are turned into commands (legalism). The Truth is found through study and prayer (God did give us a tutor in the Holy Spirit to help us understand).
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Old 03-06-2004, 09:25 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dreadsox
Should the Ten Commandments be taken literally or not?

My belief is that there are LITERAL truths to be found inside of the book. However, there are also parts that are impossible to be taken literally.
If you don't mind more agreement from the Friendly Local Lefty Squad I believe this too.
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Old 03-07-2004, 01:51 AM   #131
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"Because someone's opinion differs from yours they must automatically be uninformed?"

Em no, but when someone makes a blanket statement, the Bible's just a fairy tale, (something I've read/heard plenty of times), and compares it to Harry Potter? Notice I used the word "seem," it seems like the person has not read much of the Bible. I've been in debates with people who have read the Bible, and don't believe it, so that experience led me to believe the person hasn't read much of it.

"This is both over simplistic and offensive to those who don't consider the Bible to be the "truth." You imply that people reject the Bible bcause they wish to lie, steal or cheat. I choose not to do those things because they are inherently wrong and they can cause harm to other people. My limits on "what I can and can't do" are guided by what impact my actions have on other people and the idea that doing good is its own reward. Please don't imply that all non-Christians must be liars, cheats and thieves: it really don't make for the most interesting of debates. "

Well I knew that would be offensive, Jesus did say, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father but through Me." I suppose that's offensive to people who reject Jesus.

Some people reject the Bible as true because it does set boundaries. Does that mean non-Christian people wish to do lie, steal, cheat, etc., no not really, it just means, that if they were to do these things, they don't have a religion that says not to. What is right and wrong to people, is either based on their own ideas, (as you go by?) or by a religion/philosophy. You feel doing good is it's own reward? How so? If we all got here through some mindless mechanical process (actual quote about evolution from a public, university biology book). How would we know what is right and wrong? Does an animal know right from wrong? Are animals and humans, different, or related through a common ancestor. Animals kill other ones, steal from each other, survival of the fittest?, so how do we humans have a sense of right and wrong, if we are nothing but highly evolved animals? We'd just evolved to that point? Shouldn't animals be more moral than us? Some were apparently around millions of years before humans.


------

"You are not doing proper science there buddy"
Proper science involves observation, I do remember that from my science classes.

Can you prove this 65 million year time gap? Carbon dating/radiometric dating? rely a lot on assumption.

"The lower leg of the Fairbanks Creek mammoth had a radiocarbon age of 15,380 RCY, while its skin and flesh were 21,300 RCY."
--In the Beginning Walt Brown p. 124.

Hoaxes huh, well the pepper moth "proof" of evolution was discovered to be a hoax, gluing moths to trees, saying they landed on the trunks of trees, when moths are nocturnal, I suppose that's more creative than digging footprints.

(http://darla.neoucom.edu/DEPTS/ANAT/whaleorigins.htm)

Now how do I know those are real, and not hoaxes? I see the jpeg images of the whole fossil, but this is the internet. I can be just as skeptical to evolution as an atheist is towards God.

I actually get a lot of my information about evolution and creationism, from a guy with a Ph.D, who's studied science longer than I've been alive, there are a bunch of Ph.D's who reject evolution. http://www.fishdontwalk.com/articles...ionists01.html

All dinosaurs are fully formed and functional (no half legs/half wings or half scales/half feathers). Dinosaurs provide no evidence for evolution. Dinosaurs contradict the Evolution model that life in the distant past was simpler, and became more complex over time. If dinosaurs did exist way back then, they should be simpler, not more complex than animals living today. Dinosaurs were intelligently designed. http://www.fishdontwalk.com

I actually like science, I ace'd biology in high school, got a B in it in college, but I appreciate it more, when it's viewed as the product of intelligent design (God), rather than accidental.

------
"Does God always work through the laws of science, and if not does it negate science?"

A supernatural (above nature, not subject to nature) being *God* could use laws of science, or use supernatural means. Jesus was said to have walked on water, this would naturally not happen, but through God, He could.

I admit I'm just a student of science, but I think that when scientific laws are allowed to be broken or bent so that theories can be proven, it's a little dodgy. 1st and 2nd law of thermodynamics, and my basic understanding of them negate the Big Bang, (matter can not be created or destroyed), and evolution (disorder to order, increase in complexity).

My worthless 2 cents. (yeah, that's an oxymoron ) A lot of this is string of conscious.

There ARE websites and books devoted to this, why ask members of a U2 forum? To wind up people?
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Old 03-07-2004, 06:32 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally posted by thrillme
Em no, but when someone makes a blanket statement, the Bible's just a fairy tale, (something I've read/heard plenty of times), and compares it to Harry Potter?
I think the point there is that for non-Christians, the idea of the Bible being the literal truth is as unlikely as the adventures of a fictional wizard being true.

Quote:
Well I knew that would be offensive, Jesus did say, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father but through Me." I suppose that's offensive to people who reject Jesus.
Then why say it? As I said, insulting people doesn't make for an interesting debate. Am I offended by the quote you posted? No. I disagree with it, I don't think it has value, but it's not offensive to me. Implying that anyone who rejects a literal interpretation of the Bible is a liar or a thief, however, is offensive.

Quote:
What is right and wrong to people, is either based on their own ideas, (as you go by?) or by a religion/philosophy. You feel doing good is it's own reward? How so?
I'm not sure that I can simplify that statement any further. I think that doing the right thing is good in itself. I don't think people need some promise of a "heavenly reward" to do good. I think that the knowledge that you've helped someone, or at least not hurt anyone, is a reward in itself. That isn't actually the only way I'd define what's right and wrong, but this discussion would get a lot longer and a lot more pointless if I went into that here.


Quote:
There ARE websites and books devoted to this, why ask members of a U2 forum? To wind up people?
People used to have these debates over in the "Goal is Soul" forum, but Elvis decided because of the amount of "preaching" and exclusion of non-Christians, such debates were better in FYM. They're more controversial in FYM because there are plenty of people who aren't Christian or have different visions of Christianity than there were in GIS.
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Old 03-07-2004, 10:18 AM   #133
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Why ask members of a U2 forum? Why not? Even though none of us might be *certifiable* experts, we all have a huge stake in this discussion. What could be more important, enlightening, and interesting to talk about than where we came from, where we are going, and why things happen as they do?

We all came here to talk about U2, I guess, but I think U2 is lucky to have a fan base that is perhaps a bit more intelligent and sensitive than, say, Britney Spears' fan base. FYMers, regardless of their side of the political/religious fence, tend to be well-read, thoughtful, educated, and articulate individuals.

Nobody asked us; we are asking each other. Beli's thread is a great example; she might not want to go right up to a priest and say, "So, what's the deal with Christianity?" But here she can ask these questions and get answers as the people who have struggled with these questions their whole lives understand them. We are not, by and large, academics; nor are we "professional" Christians or Buddhists or whatever (in the sense that a priest or a guru would be). We're helping each other and entering into dialogue and meeting people where they are. That is the great gift of a place like FYM.

I encourage you also to read the FYM threads that have nothing to do with religion. We do talk about things other than religion (although it doesn't seem that way lately, LOL--not that there's anything wrong with that).
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Old 03-08-2004, 02:55 AM   #134
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Originally posted by paxetaurora
Why ask members of a U2 forum? Why not? Even though none of us might be *certifiable* experts, we all have a huge stake in this discussion. What could be more important, enlightening, and interesting to talk about than where we came from, where we are going, and why things happen as they do?

We all came here to talk about U2, I guess, but I think U2 is lucky to have a fan base that is perhaps a bit more intelligent and sensitive than, say, Britney Spears' fan base. FYMers, regardless of their side of the political/religious fence, tend to be well-read, thoughtful, educated, and articulate individuals.

Nobody asked us; we are asking each other. Beli's thread is a great example; she might not want to go right up to a priest and say, "So, what's the deal with Christianity?" But here she can ask these questions and get answers as the people who have struggled with these questions their whole lives understand them. We are not, by and large, academics; nor are we "professional" Christians or Buddhists or whatever (in the sense that a priest or a guru would be). We're helping each other and entering into dialogue and meeting people where they are. That is the great gift of a place like FYM.

I encourage you also to read the FYM threads that have nothing to do with religion. We do talk about things other than religion (although it doesn't seem that way lately, LOL--not that there's anything wrong with that).
Points taken. I see what you're saying, I just rarely see message boards that delve into religion and politics, (some forums that aren't for that area) that don't get really ugly, and often it's nothing more than a wind up. (Check out MTV message boards, you'll see what I mean.) Not interested in the debate, just to see others get into fights.

I don't feel the starter of this post did that, but I dunno, better wording of the title, could have made it more approachable.

However, something like evolution and creationism, world religions, politics, I do like to hear/read "non-experts" thoughts, but I also consult and research "experts" so that I have a better understanding.

Having had my beliefs mocked, degraded, made to feel like an idiot because I believe in the Bible, calling it fairy tales, I think you'd feel a little defensive too. I made my decision about Christianity, out of intellectual reasoning, I have studied about other world religions, I've read the rationale, the reasons for evolution and creationism, and through that I made a real committment. I think an honest student of science, would admit, some of the theories in science are in some way, believed with faith, rather than fact, because direct observation is a key part of science; and that would not be the case with the Big Bang theory. If I believe that the flood was real, even if I didn't see it happen, I'm just a believer of fairy tales. If I believe the Big Bang theory happened, and didn't see it, I'm pretty smart.

I suppose this only makes sense to me.

When I joined this and other U2 forums, I went into them knowing, that there would be a possibility U2 could be the one thing I have in common with the members. I didn't really know much about U2 until a few years ago, I can now see why their message boards would have areas for political and religious posts, but I'm hesitant to go into them. I end up here, often because of the "see similar thread" links on the bottom.
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Old 03-08-2004, 04:00 AM   #135
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This thread is AWESOME.
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