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Old 03-08-2004, 05:24 AM   #136
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I just went to www.fishdontwalk.com and I must say that it wasn't the objective non-partisan site that its title suggests. It clearly demonstrates blatent contempt for the theory of evolution, this may be seen in its criticism of evolution on the basis of the second law of thermodynamics, saying that because "in theory" evolution "will allways" create more advanced organisms it violates the 2nd law that the complexity of a system will allways collapse to a more chaotic state, I do find this one quite funny if only because it neglects the fact that the earth continues to recieve energy from both geological sources as well as from the sun, it also forgets that evolution IS NOT a linear progression and clearly shows that often the lowest common denominator will allways prevail, this is why proto-bacteria still exist, its because they are so well evolved for their environments most mutations do not give dicernable benefit that allows them to reproduce more. The fact it only had one link to an outside page that wasnt strictly pro-creation (the page is http://www.talkorigins.org and I would seriously recomend it to anyone interested in the subject) just shows that this site is yet another archive of pseudo-science and anti-intellectual tripe designed to confound the senses of anybody who doesn't understand basic scientific principles and get them to spout young earth creationist drivel.

To demonstrate my contention that this site is not designed to allow someone to make up their own opinon but simply to give them the ability to repeat what they have been told to believe and think, just take a look at this golden article of pre-prepared "answers" to confront those heck bound evil darwinist atheists with http://www.fishdontwalk.com/articles/evangelism01.html


Now just out of interest can somebody please tell me what scientific theorys are faith based, give me some real examples. I can see evolution in action as bacterial infections develop resistence over the course of days, we know this is a definite fact and it isn't just a vaugue rationale that once a monkey gave birth to a human being hypothesis. We can see species of life that are extinct that bear close resembelance to various species that are alive today, hence they were probably a common ancestor. As for the big bang theory there is plenty of evidence for it, the gradual inflation of galaxies away from eachother, cosmic background radiation and black holes (prove that regions of infinite curvature i.e. singularities can exist) are all phenomena that can be explained and predicted with a big bang type theory. The other important thing to remember is that Big Bang is just a theory and it is falsifiable, hence if we were to discover evidence that the universe didnt arise from a singular point we may have to go for a steady-state theory or even an ocillating universe. The important thing is that scientists don't just come up with theories out of thin air and take them at face value, it takes a lot of time and effort to come up with hypothesis that explain observation and then be able to predict future observations with it. After you can explain the results properly the theory is submitted to scrutiny by peers and if it survives all of that it is very watertight and may be adopted widely. It must be reciognized that evolution isn't a religion or rationale, it is an undeniable fact because we have accumulated so much evidence (show me how the entire fossil record is fraudulent, why 'fitter' animals breed more and hence pass off more genetic material or why human DNA shares such a close resembelance to primate DNA without evolution through natural selection) It is also a scientific theory that has been rigorously tested and so widely accepted for over a century.

As I clearly stated before science is a process of objectively observing our world and deriving a model that may best explain and/or predict new observations. It is not a religion, people do not put faith in science, It is a collection of knowledge and as such it does not have to relate to any scripture or belief. There is no such thing as a sacred scientific theory, if you can produce a theory that explains substantial and repeatable evidence that can best be explained by a theory that invalidates previous assumptions then there is not reason for it to be ignored, Newton (a devout christian like allmost everybody in europe at the time) came up laws of motion and began to describe a clockwork universe. The ramifications of this theory upset many because it describes a world of pure causality where everything from an apple falling from a tree to the intricate workings of a human mind were pre-determined by physical laws. In the early 20th century we had another paradigm shift when the theory of quantum mechanics allowed us to explain the universe in terms of fundamental units called quanta, the results of this were modern electronics, communication technology, electron microscopes etc. We also gained both theory's of relativity which are powerfull tools that can describe the universe as a 4 dimentional space-time. The predictions of relativity such as a constant speed of light (not really a prediction since it was proved in the MM experiment several years prior so it was a postdiction), black holes and time dilations have all been experimentaly verified and observed. The theory of evolution is just like these theorys it takes the evidence (life on the planet earth from both the present and the past) and builds a hypothesis to explain how such diversity can occur through natural processes (removing inherent divine intervention is what makes this a scientific theory because there is absolutely NO OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE for god this is because a) God doesn't nor ever will exist or b) God is dead or c) God is totally undetectable hence cannot be disproved hence not evidence that it exists. Evolution isnt very hard to understand, if a particular plant has a fluke mutation that makes it secrete a noxious chemical then animals are less likely to eat it. If less animals eat this particular plant it will have more of a chance to reproduce and pass this genetic mutation to its decendents, over time each of these decendents with the mutation will be able to reproduce more and eventually most of the population will have the mutation. This is of course counteracted by evolution in the animals that eat the plant, say that an particular animal cannot taste the noxious chemical it will be the only one able to feed on these plants, it will therefore have more food and a higher likelyhood of reproducing. Ultimately this leads to a dynamic ecosystem where both predator and prey are evolving and in a constant state of change.

Evolution DOES NOT disprove god, it simply says that the world we see around us was not created all at once with all life on it and it is important to remember this. There are so many variables within an environment that one could use a theistic evolution as a basis for belief, that being god effects the mutations withing the DNA in order to create new species (this idea is good because it a) Isnt particually disagreeable within the context of quantum mechanics, see copenhagen interperatation and b) Because it doesnt place belief of a creator on a disproved hypothesis (6000 year old earth, adam and eve etc.).

**EDIT** Changed 2 spelling mistakes, remember splitting a bottle of Ouzo over a hot afternoon with friends does NOT improve ones dexterity.
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Old 03-08-2004, 06:07 AM   #137
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Hi A Wanderer,

I agree with you.

To quote LivLuv from another thread, if I may:
Quote:
faith is something that doesn't require proof, backing up of information, and debate.
I think its just two entirely different ways of thinking. I agree with you and dont understand why anyone would not agree with you. I fundamentally dont understand the whole concept of God worshipping. I have been trying to get my head around just one minor point of Christianity for days now and Im still not succeeding.

Not that thats a bad thing either way. Just frustrating.

Just my $0.02 worth but then Im in a pondering mood at the moment.
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Old 03-08-2004, 06:29 AM   #138
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Very good quote I may have to steal it (j/k), faith is important for everybody, perhaps what we are seeing is a division between blind faith and other types. I myself have an optimism for humanity as a whole I see society itself as corrupted however when we look at people we see something, it's what makes us human, the compassion that we all have that divides us from animals, the concepts of dignity and the determination that make us aspire for greater things. We don't need God to define such things and by removing any external creator we realize that we are all equal, when we start a position of equality society need not be bound by racial or class distinctions we must then realize that the only way humanity will be able to survive is if we end our petty disagreements and stop killing eachother, to paraphrase JFK from his American University speech, "We all breath the same air, we all cherish our childrens futures and we are all mortal" we have been using The Bible as a spiritual guide for the last 2000 years but has it moved us forward? are we able today honestly say to ourselves the world is a fair and peaceful place? Is it time that we stop looking for a divine intervention and start making a difference here and now, when it counts? I ask these questions not to offend but to get answers (also to move this topic away from Creation/Evolution, the facts are well defined, the arguments without facts lack a context in the real world, let the facts speak for themselves) So let me ask you, Has the bible outlived it's usefullness?
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Old 03-08-2004, 07:36 AM   #139
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I don't think so. The Bible was never meant to teach us scientific truths, and I think that is the mistake people sometimes make with the Bible. God wanted us to have the Bible in some way, I think, but mostly to teach us about Her purpose for us and about where we came from as a faith community.

God also gave us reason and intellect and the tools of scientific inquiry. For me, I see no disconnect in believing in both the possibility of evolution and the creation as completely authored by God. The Creation stories (or story )in the Bible are most likely based on local myths popular at the time of the writing and were not meant to be taken literally; rather, they were meant to show that, however you believe Creation came about, God was and is responsible for it.

So, then: Is the Bible still useful? Yes, of course, and for many different purposes--even secular ones. The Bible tells us an awful lot of history, sociology, and anthropology. But for Christians, the Bible is still very important in that many persons who want the very same things you do, A_Wanderer--compassion, dignity, mutual understanding, peace--rely on the Bible for guidance. It's true that the Bible and religious teachings can be twisted for people's own evil purposes. But they do not reflect the majority of Christians or religious persons.

Most of the great leaders of the world were religious in some way: Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., Dorothy Day (and JFK, too, who you mentioned in your post) and so many others. Religion and faith and holy books are not the problems. The problems are greed--for power or for money--and narrow-mindedness. Combined these two are responsible for a lot of the problems I think you're talking about. But in the Bible, and in other religious traditions and other holy books, we can find the ways to counteract these things. Whether it's prayer, meditation, whatever, don't discount these things as a way to a better life--for yourself and for the world.

Agh, I'm not awake and this doesn't seem clear to me. Can anyone help me out?
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Old 03-09-2004, 03:17 PM   #140
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two stories of Eve's creation


Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader



Where do you get such ideas? They are not based on the Bible.

Turning the Bible into a conceptual book is attractive because then there is no accountability and concepts can be redefined at personal whim.



version 1.

Genesis 1

created male and female on the 5th day, if I read correctly

Quote:
26 Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, [2] and over all the creatures that move along the ground."

27 So God created man in his own image,
in the image of God he created him;
male and female he created them.

28 God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground."
29 Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food." And it was so.
31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning-the sixth day.



version 2


Genesis 2

Eve created from Adam's rib, after the 5th day?


Quote:

7 the LORD God formed the man [5] from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
8 Now the LORD God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed. 9 And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground-trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
10 A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. 11 The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 (The gold of that land is good; aromatic resin [6] and onyx are also there.) 13 The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. [7] 14 The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."
18 The LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him."
19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
But for Adam [8] no suitable helper was found. 21 So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs [9] and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib [10] he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,

"This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called 'woman, [11] '
for she was taken out of man."
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Old 03-09-2004, 05:32 PM   #141
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Curious, if you read through all of Genesis 1, you see that people were created on the 6th day (see verse 31 of your first quote).

Chapter 1, a general statement of mankind's creation. Chapter 2, the specifics of Adam and Eve. There is nothing to suggest that they are separate events.

I've heard this strawman argument many times - maybe they are based on "traditions", maybe there are false teachers. But to say that the quoted passages constitute two separate and distinct creation stories is false.
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Old 03-09-2004, 05:55 PM   #142
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I agree with the above person.
For the others I would offer them Matt 23 v24.

vince peal

Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
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Old 03-09-2004, 06:22 PM   #143
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In the first story, animals are created before people; in the second story, they are created after people, as helpers for Adam.

So which is it? Or doesn't it matter?

I first was taught this, by the way, by a theology professor and priest at my college. This man has a Ph.D. in theology. So I think his knowledge of Scripture is probably pretty good.
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Old 03-09-2004, 06:37 PM   #144
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No, in Genesis 2:19, it says "the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air.

The animals were already in existence. They were presented before Adam to be named.

I don't have a PhD, but I have the Bible. As we look at the Bible, I do not see contradictions that suggest two separate creation stories.
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Old 03-09-2004, 06:45 PM   #145
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Okay, let's assume there is no contradiction. Let's assume that they are one story, and that Genesis 2 is an elaboration on Genesis 1. How do you account for the similarity to the Babylonian and Mesopotamian creation myths?
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Old 03-09-2004, 08:14 PM   #146
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Frankly, I've never studied Babylonian and Mesopotamian creation myths, but let's just say there are some similarities. If there is an official text for these myths, I'd be interested in links to them.

Similarities can suggest many things, all of which depend on one's existing worldview.


Let's take this as a starting point: "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20

It is quite possible that the Babylonian and Mesopotamian creation myths were divine knowledge of the Genesis account. There existence, however, does not make God's Word any less infallible.
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Old 03-09-2004, 08:17 PM   #147
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There are indeed many similarities.
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