The Athiest thread - Page 9 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind > Free Your Mind Archive
Click Here to Login
 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-18-2004, 12:45 PM   #121
Blue Crack Addict
 
Lancemc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ba Sing Se
Posts: 17,665
Local Time: 10:54 AM
muhahaha, It's only a matter of time before I have all your souls for my own!


On a serious note, it pains me to see those who feel that they can brush off God with no consequence. As a devout Christian, and one that holds their beliefs more strongly than anything else in the world, it is my mission here on Earth to spread the knowledge of Christ. The thing is, it becomes harder and harder to do every day. I'm not going to try to convert any of you on here, because it seems your beliefs are as steadfast as mine.

I just hope that one day you all might be touched in some way by God.

Again, I do not mean to offend anyone here, but it's my responsibility as a son of God to try to spread awareness.

-Lance
__________________

__________________
Lancemc is online now  
Old 12-18-2004, 03:00 PM   #122
Blue Crack Addict
 
beli's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: In a frock in Western Australia
Posts: 15,464
Local Time: 10:54 PM
Quote:
Originally posted by Lancemc
it's my responsibility as a son of God to try to spread awareness.

-Lance
The proselytizing thread is :

http://forum.interference.com/t106855.html

*closes door, draws curtains, sighs*
__________________

__________________
beli is offline  
Old 12-18-2004, 04:18 PM   #123
ONE
love, blood, life
 
indra's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 12,689
Local Time: 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by beli


The proselytizing thread is :

http://forum.interference.com/t106855.html

*closes door, draws curtains, sighs*
I was just going to post "Go to my thread, damn it!" but you beat me to it.
__________________
indra is offline  
Old 12-18-2004, 10:03 PM   #124
The Fly
 
NotAnEasyThing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Central Coast, NSW, Australia
Posts: 146
Local Time: 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Lancemc
muhahaha, It's only a matter of time before I have all your souls for my own!


On a serious note, it pains me to see those who feel that they can brush off God with no consequence. As a devout Christian, and one that holds their beliefs more strongly than anything else in the world, it is my mission here on Earth to spread the knowledge of Christ. The thing is, it becomes harder and harder to do every day. I'm not going to try to convert any of you on here, because it seems your beliefs are as steadfast as mine.

I just hope that one day you all might be touched in some way by God.

Again, I do not mean to offend anyone here, but it's my responsibility as a son of God to try to spread awareness.

-Lance
This may seem weird to some of you, seeings I have felt like the only one putting forward a contrary view in this thread, but I've got to admit that your post Lance, made me feel a little queezy too, and I'd suggest you post in the prostelyzing thread as well.

It just comes across kinda "superior". The fact that it pains you that someone can brush of God with no consequence gives the impression that others don't have the right to their point of view if it offends you. You say that you are a devout Christian, so you must be aware that Jesus strongest disdain was for the religious thugs of his day- the pharisees. They didn't tolerate people who disagreed with their rules either. The mission Jesus left to us was not one of banging people over the head with the bible until they agree to some doctrinal statement of beliefs but to love others deeply as people created in God's image. Of course the invitation should always be open to find out what it is that motivates our love, but this is how the bible puts it;
"Be ready at all times to answer anyone who asks you to explain the hope you have in you, but do it with gentleness and respect" 1Peter 3:15b-16
__________________
NotAnEasyThing is offline  
Old 12-19-2004, 03:40 AM   #125
Rock n' Roll Doggie
ALL ACCESS
 
intedomine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 7,949
Local Time: 12:54 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing


This may seem weird to some of you, seeings I have felt like the only one putting forward a contrary view in this thread, but I've got to admit that your post Lance, made me feel a little queezy too, and I'd suggest you post in the prostelyzing thread as well.

It just comes across kinda "superior". The fact that it pains you that someone can brush of God with no consequence gives the impression that others don't have the right to their point of view if it offends you. You say that you are a devout Christian, so you must be aware that Jesus strongest disdain was for the religious thugs of his day- the pharisees. They didn't tolerate people who disagreed with their rules either. The mission Jesus left to us was not one of banging people over the head with the bible until they agree to some doctrinal statement of beliefs but to love others deeply as people created in God's image. Of course the invitation should always be open to find out what it is that motivates our love, but this is how the bible puts it;
"Be ready at all times to answer anyone who asks you to explain the hope you have in you, but do it with gentleness and respect" 1Peter 3:15b-16

Yeah well put Notaneasything....when i did read what lancemc wrote, while i respect his right to say what he wants, it does make me shudder and kinda have a sick feeling.

Call it intolerance if ya want, but its just the way i feel.

I've almost become anti-religious in a sense. Particularly against christianity. I was reading through the book of psalms, and i came across psalm 21. I was strongly offended. I interpreted it as a violent attack on anyone who doesnt accept god. It talked about aiming arrows at people who didnt accept god and burning them in a furnace. I was shocked to say the least.

If this is what christianity and god is all about, its disgraceful and must be condemned.
__________________
intedomine is offline  
Old 12-19-2004, 04:08 AM   #126
Jesus Online
 
Angela Harlem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 1969
Location: a glass castle
Posts: 30,163
Local Time: 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing

.... The mission Jesus left to us was not one of banging people over the head with the bible until they agree to some doctrinal statement of beliefs but to love others deeply as people created in God's image. Of course the invitation should always be open to find out what it is that motivates our love, but this is how the bible puts it;
"Be ready at all times to answer anyone who asks you to explain the hope you have in you, but do it with gentleness and respect" 1Peter 3:15b-16
So why are people on this forum so bloody unwilling to address some things? I feel like I am going around in circles lately, all the Christian people on this forum who have previously held no hesitation in putting forth their views all disappeared into thin air as soon as I started my quest.

I'm not sure yet if it's more puzzling, insulting, frustrating or something to base an assumption on. It's not like I have much to go on here.
__________________
<a href=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/angelaharlem/thPaul_Roos28.jpg target=_blank>http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...aul_Roos28.jpg</a>
Angela Harlem is offline  
Old 12-19-2004, 04:21 AM   #127
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 12:54 AM
I think that a quick reading the texts of Mohammedanism will reveal some far darker streaks. I am a kuffir - worthy of death if one followed those texts exactly - and I am bloody proud of it.

Moses had nothing to do with God and there is no such thing as chosen people, Adamite man never existed and Genesis is false, the world was created from an accreation disk collapsing in with pressure waves and gravity ultimately leading to life on this planet, human beings are part of this.

Jesus Christ was a fraud, a reactionary who through fluke and favour became a messiah to those who wanted to believe, history was very kind to him.

Mohammed was an illiterate and unscrupulous bandit who's sexual tastes are objectionable. A thuggish despot who conquered lands and managed to established his meteorite worshipping, rock throwing, woman enslaving, Jew-killing cult of personality that demanded total submission on behalf of the subjegated masses.

I am not placing any religious belief above another, they are all equally illogical and at different times have all proved to be dangerous. Peaceful belief that doesn't interfere with the rights of people- not a problem. Violent and bigoted beliefs that seeks to crush individuality and exterminate those that stand in its way - no way Jose.

And I do not like the concept that so much of what the west stands for is wrong and that it must be supplanted with pure religious ideals, that the "cure" for the problems caused by atheism is religion (link)
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 12-19-2004, 09:32 AM   #128
Blue Crack Addict
 
Lancemc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ba Sing Se
Posts: 17,665
Local Time: 10:54 AM
I'm not trying to come across as superior in any way. And I already stated that I'm not trying to impose my beliefs on anyone here, just stating how I feel. So I think it's not as intolerant to say those things baout me as it would be for me to say that your beliefs are wrong, and I am the only one who is right, which I'm not saying at all.
__________________
Lancemc is online now  
Old 12-19-2004, 04:02 PM   #129
The Fly
 
NotAnEasyThing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Central Coast, NSW, Australia
Posts: 146
Local Time: 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by intedomine

I've almost become anti-religious in a sense. Particularly against christianity. I was reading through the book of psalms, and i came across psalm 21. I was strongly offended. I interpreted it as a violent attack on anyone who doesnt accept god. It talked about aiming arrows at people who didnt accept god and burning them in a furnace. I was shocked to say the least.

If this is what christianity and god is all about, its disgraceful and must be condemned.
Hi intedomine,

The book of Psalms is a really interesting part of the Bible. Bono refers to it as the "Blues" of the Bible, because much of it contains the cries of people in desperate circumstances calling out to God. I am not surprised you say you found it shocking, at times I do too. Much of it is poetic, and many parts of it were in fact sung by God's people just like the church today sings hymns and choruses as an expression of worship. What I find most remarkable is that (if you believe an all powerful God has guided the formation of the Bible as I do) that these raw sometimes offensive, sometimes over zealous othertimes incredibly vulnerable or bordering on blasphemous heartfelt poems have been preserved for us to read today.

To me that says something very profound; that our Creator wants us to know that he understands that pain, passion, and depth of emotion that we as humans experience... and he is right there with us.

In reference to your specific comments about Psalm 21, it is a psalm attributed to David who went on to become King of Israel. He was looking to the future where as he he saw it, those who who were responsible for the injustices of his circumtance, and those who stood against his people would be dealt with by God. It is a difficult issue, and I do struggle with this one a bit myself. One thing that may help in understanding this passage, and others like it, is the differences between the Old and New Testaments. The israelites had a very limited view of God and his justice, they did not have much of a concept of life beyond death, and also saw things in kind of cause & effect relationship. ie. people disobey God- people punished. Now i think in someways the Bible does show God operating in this way on occassion (in the OT). Now while I find this a little difficult, I kind of have to ask myself, surely if anyone has the right to do this it is God. But as the story of God's dealing with people continues into the New Testament we find a growing revelation of his character. When Jesus rocks up, we are assured that God is not just a vengeful, harsh judge but a loving creator who has provided a way of restoring the broken relationship between him and his creation. This is not to say that these qualities are not present in the OT, as they certainly are. He is portrayed often as a jealous lover, as a gentle and caring father, even as a suffering servant ( to name just a few). However, the Israelites themselves didn't necessarily understand it all. Thus you get a guy like David saying things like "Go get em God" about his enemies.

Wow, this post went on a lot longer than I intended- sorry!
__________________
NotAnEasyThing is offline  
Old 12-19-2004, 04:08 PM   #130
The Fly
 
NotAnEasyThing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Central Coast, NSW, Australia
Posts: 146
Local Time: 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by Angela Harlem


So why are people on this forum so bloody unwilling to address some things? I feel like I am going around in circles lately, all the Christian people on this forum who have previously held no hesitation in putting forth their views all disappeared into thin air as soon as I started my quest.

I'm not sure yet if it's more puzzling, insulting, frustrating or something to base an assumption on. It's not like I have much to go on here.
Angela, I am not quite sure which quest you are refering to. Maybe I haven't been around long enough to know the things that people have been unwilling to address. But please, if there is anything you want to ask me as a Christian I would only be too willing to try to answer.

Cheers!
__________________
NotAnEasyThing is offline  
Old 12-19-2004, 04:20 PM   #131
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 370
Local Time: 09:54 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by coemgen
I'm curious as to what those who are athiests think about this story. Talk amongst yourselves.


Famous Atheist Now Believes in God

By RICHARD N. OSTLING, AP Religion Writer

NEW YORK - A British philosophy professor who has been a leading champion of atheism for more than a half-century has changed his mind. He now believes in God — more or less — based on scientific evidence, and says so on a video released Thursday.

At age 81, after decades of insisting belief is a mistake, Antony Flew has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe. A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew said in a telephone interview from England.

Flew said he's best labeled a deist like Thomas Jefferson, whose God was not actively involved in people's lives.

"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said. "It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose."

Flew first made his mark with the 1950 article "Theology and Falsification," based on a paper for the Socratic Club, a weekly Oxford religious forum led by writer and Christian thinker C.S. Lewis.

Over the years, Flew proclaimed the lack of evidence for God while teaching at Oxford, Aberdeen, Keele, and Reading universities in Britain, in visits to numerous U.S. and Canadian campuses and in books, articles, lectures and debates.

There was no one moment of change but a gradual conclusion over recent months for Flew, a spry man who still does not believe in an afterlife.

Yet biologists' investigation of DNA "has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce (life), that intelligence must have been involved," Flew says in the new video, "Has Science Discovered God?"

The video draws from a New York discussion last May organized by author Roy Abraham Varghese's Institute for Metascientific Research in Garland, Texas. Participants were Flew; Varghese; Israeli physicist Gerald Schroeder, an Orthodox Jew; and Roman Catholic philosopher John Haldane of Scotland's University of St. Andrews.

The first hint of Flew's turn was a letter to the August-September issue of Britain's Philosophy Now magazine. "It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism," he wrote.

The letter commended arguments in Schroeder's "The Hidden Face of God" and "The Wonder of the World" by Varghese, an Eastern Rite Catholic layman.

This week, Flew finished writing the first formal account of his new outlook for the introduction to a new edition of his "God and Philosophy," scheduled for release next year by Prometheus Books.

Prometheus specializes in skeptical thought, but if his belief upsets people, well "that's too bad," Flew said. "My whole life has been guided by the principle of Plato's Socrates: Follow the evidence, wherever it leads."

Last week, Richard Carrier, a writer and Columbia University graduate student, posted new material based on correspondence with Flew on the atheistic www.infidels.org Web page. Carrier assured atheists that Flew accepts only a "minimal God" and believes in no afterlife.

Flew's "name and stature are big. Whenever you hear people talk about atheists, Flew always comes up," Carrier said. Still, when it comes to Flew's reversal, "apart from curiosity, I don't think it's like a big deal."

Flew told The Associated Press his current ideas have some similarity with American "intelligent design" theorists, who see evidence for a guiding force in the construction of the universe. He accepts Darwinian evolution but doubts it can explain the ultimate origins of life.

A Methodist minister's son, Flew became an atheist at 15.

Early in his career, he argued that no conceivable events could constitute proof against God for believers, so skeptics were right to wonder whether the concept of God meant anything at all.

Another landmark was his 1984 "The Presumption of Atheism," playing off the presumption of innocence in criminal law. Flew said the debate over God must begin by presuming atheism, putting the burden of proof on those arguing that God exists.
Don't want to reduce this one because there's going to be more in his argument than what is present here. The major difficulty he's going to have to overcome is the same one that has plagued the argument from design from day 1:

He's going to have to show how his perception of organization NECESSARILY forces us to conclude that there is a God. Again, just because darwinism etc can't yet conclusively determine the origins of the universe doesn't mean that it WAS the product of a deity. If he does, it's a false dilemma.

No doubt his argument will be complicated, but we'll see..



Quote:
Originally posted by NotAnEasyThing


Thank you so much for your well reasoned and respectful response Jon! I appreciate what you're saying about not simply settling for an insuficient and intellectually unsatisfying answer simply because a better (more cogent) arguement is unavailable. I can also agree with the problems with the "false dilemma" kind of arguement. Actually i find people who argue this way intellectually lazy.

But the question of "is there a God" seems to me, not to fall into this category. Either there is....or there isn't. And like any good scientist, isn't the best mode of operation working with the known facts and coming up with the best theory...even if it is still a theory. If you operate like you have said Jon, how would you do anything in life? What I mean is (for an example):
Will I bother getting out of bed today?
a) I could find my house as I remember it last night and it is safe to go and get breaky
or
b) The Cat may have grown into a giant fire breathing beast and eaten all the food in the house
or
c) The whole house may cave in on me if I even move
or d), e), f).....etc.

I know this is completely ridiculous but you get my point I hope. If we only ever make a choice to accept something as truth when all possible avenues have been explored we are rendered useless. To use my analogy before, I choose to get out of bed and make breakfast because based on my experience thus far, it seems very likely that my cat will still be sleeping harmlessly on the lounge and the house will probably have the strength to cope with a few footsteps down the hallway (not to mention I'm hungry! ). That is the best theory (dare I say truth).

On the other side of the ledger, wouldn't it make more logical sense to test a good theory and judge it's validity based on that experience. In the case of the existence of God, I find it strange that people have trouble seeing evidence all over the shop. I guess it depends on how you approach the subject. For me, even the fact that we have the ability to critically debate, ponder, and process these arguements is itself an arguement for an intellegent creator. Don't you find the mind/conciousness a beautifully creative thing? And what about beauty/music/art/pleasure? Where do these fit in to a world that is devoid of God? Did we just evolve on our own to enjoy these creative (none essential facilties)? To me that is illogical.

But these questions were raise by Beli which seem to be common questions that atheists raise concerning God that they feel have no good answers:



Thanks for your reply. Not to be rude, but I can't spend a whole lot of time on here at once, just because of other commitments. I'm sorry about that. So, if you are interested in discussing this at further length, and I would very mush enjoy that, can I request that we narrow down the discussion and focus on each issue individually.

Here are some of the ideas I got from your post. Please feel free to edit this list so that I am not committing a straw man.

1) 'Theory'.

2) Argument from design (that God is evident in the design/organization of the planet and us as human beings.)

3) The logic of Lee Strobel (there is a lot of ground to cover here. what I suggest is that we discuss 1 section of his book at a time, beginning with his justification for the Bible as a reliable source of information. The reason for this is because the rest of his argument rests on this. If you find his logic weak during this argument, you're likely to find the rest of the book weak.)


Again, please feel free to edit this in any way you see fit or to add at your leisure or as issues arise. If it's possible, I kindly ask you to keep the topics as narrow as possible to make the discussion as efficient as possible. Also, I am about to take a couple weeks to spend time with my family so I cannot always reply right away. You can choose the topic we start with if you'd like. Is this a good idea to you? Please let me know and I will be glad to participate. I will also fully understand if you decide you're not interested or that you don't have the time. Kindest regards and happy holidays!

BTW. I used to play hockey and go to school in boston! Is the word 'szabo' stilll commonly used there??

Definitely traveling there to see U2 this time around, but GO HABS GO!!!

Ok all, have a great day/evening/morning.

Jon
__________________
Klink is offline  
Old 12-19-2004, 04:39 PM   #132
The Fly
 
NotAnEasyThing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Central Coast, NSW, Australia
Posts: 146
Local Time: 01:54 AM
Hey Jon,

Yeah, I'm quite interested in discussing these topics

Quote:
Originally posted by Klink

1) 'Theory'.

2) Argument from design (that God is evident in the design/organization of the planet and us as human beings.)

3) The logic of Lee Strobel (there is a lot of ground to cover here. what I suggest is that we discuss 1 section of his book at a time, beginning with his justification for the Bible as a reliable source of information. The reason for this is because the rest of his argument rests on this. If you find his logic weak during this argument, you're likely to find the rest of the book weak.)
Jon
Regarding justification of the bible, there is a lot more around than just Strobel on this topic, is it ok with you to bring this stuff into the discussion?

And I have a lot on too in the next few weeks with Christmas/ new year etc. so like you, I'm not sure how often I'll be able to get on here and post. But that's ok, even if it takes some time.

Happy Christmas!
__________________
NotAnEasyThing is offline  
Old 12-19-2004, 04:54 PM   #133
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 12:54 AM
There is no evidence for intelligent design as a means of life on this planet, natural laws that have been identified are the key to unlocking the unkowns of the universe.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline  
Old 12-19-2004, 09:16 PM   #134
The Fly
 
NotAnEasyThing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Central Coast, NSW, Australia
Posts: 146
Local Time: 01:54 AM
Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
There is no evidence for intelligent design as a means of life on this planet, natural laws that have been identified are the key to unlocking the unkowns of the universe.
SO what caused the natural laws?

And btw, what natural laws are responsible for beauty/art/pleasure etc.?
__________________
NotAnEasyThing is offline  
Old 12-19-2004, 11:32 PM   #135
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
BrownEyedBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: San Pedro Sula, Honduras
Posts: 3,510
Local Time: 08:54 AM
How does an atheist explain life then?

The water cycle, the food chain, excretory systems, red blood cells; all of them a result of a lucky shot.

I think not.
__________________

__________________
BrownEyedBoy is offline  
 

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:54 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com