A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
I just wonder why this thread has such a disproportionate number of Australian posters - seriously it's bugging me out.
The Athiest thread
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NotAnEasyThing
The Fly
intedomine said:
I know your comment was probably somewhat tongue in cheek, but as a parent my intention (and I think any loving parent would think the same) has always been to raise my kids to have the critical reasoning skills and all the information available to make wise decisions. I would love my kids just as much whether they came to the same or different conclusions as me. Does being a 'proud' atheist really make sense? What is there to be proud about- if indeed atheism is just the position that there is no God. That kind of 'proud' attitude is what I was meaning in my earlier posts about how most atheists I have come across tend to arrive at their position from a more "reactionary" process.
It is getting late though intedomine, I think I'm starting to fade
NotAnEasyThing
The Fly
A_Wanderer said:
Yeah funny that eh?
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
I prefer people who believe in God but just refuse - thats not to say that I like satanists.
It bugs me to hear some people call athiests 'devil worshippers' (I have heard this) they can't be, because if you believe in the devil that's believing in something and you don't believe in anything, right?
I also wonder why there is such a high percentage of non believers in Australia. Maybe it's a godforsaken land?
According to most polls, the people in the US who do believe in SOMETHING(all religions and beliefs together) is always in the 90-95% range. Is it the opposite in Australia?
I also wonder why there is such a high percentage of non believers in Australia. Maybe it's a godforsaken land?
According to most polls, the people in the US who do believe in SOMETHING(all religions and beliefs together) is always in the 90-95% range. Is it the opposite in Australia?
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
Pretty much, we have an astonishing ammount of apathy.
OP
OP
beli
Blue Crack Addict
A_Wanderer said:
Statistically Australia has the worlds highest population of athiests, agnostics, and half-arsed skeptics.
I think (and this is solely me rambling, no scientific basis whatsoever) its because we are a nation of people who, for historical reasons, do not respect authority.
I believe the only country that even comes close to the size of Australias atheist, etc, population is Denmark.
At least I think its Denmark, I cant be bothered to look it up
OP
OP
beli
Blue Crack Addict
NotAnEasyThing said:
Whats the difference between what you describe and a Christian saying "oh well, its God addressing the imbalance of good versus evil so this AIDs victim must die" ?
Both statments are nasty horrible. Tis why Im not religious.
I also dont like the "forgiveness" concept. I believe if someone has stuffed up then they should address the situation, take charge, apologise to the people effected, and make amends. Not go and tell someone unconnected to the incident and then think everythings okay. I have lost friends with Christians over time as I dont respect them when they dont take ownership of their mistakes.
You might NotAnEasyThing, but some of the ones I have had bad dealings with dont.
OP
OP
beli
Blue Crack Addict
intedomine said:
I often think this too. I have a 4 year old daughter and we haven't taught her anything about these issues. I thought we would wait until she asks. But my mother in law is Irish Catholic and my daughter will come back from staying the night with her Nana and ask ''Why does Nana sit on the floor and ask that God save you Mummy and Daddy? Have you been bad?"
indra
ONE love, blood, life
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beli said:
I often think this too. I have a 4 year old daughter and we haven't taught her anything about these issues. I thought we would wait until she asks. But my mother in law is Irish Catholic and my daughter will come back from staying the night with her Nana and ask ''Why does Nana sit on the floor and ask that God save you Mummy and Daddy? Have you been bad?"
Don't you find that really irritating, beli? I do, and it's not even my child. I would just be so pissed. I won't say your mother-in-law wasn't well-meaning, but I think she's being irresponsible and manipulative to make sure she prays, out loud, about you in the presence of your 4-year-old daughter.
coemgen
Rock n' Roll Doggie
I'm curious as to what those who are athiests think about this story. Talk amongst yourselves.
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
By RICHARD N. OSTLING, AP Religion Writer
NEW YORK - A British philosophy professor who has been a leading champion of atheism for more than a half-century has changed his mind. He now believes in God — more or less — based on scientific evidence, and says so on a video released Thursday.
At age 81, after decades of insisting belief is a mistake, Antony Flew has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe. A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew said in a telephone interview from England.
Flew said he's best labeled a deist like Thomas Jefferson, whose God was not actively involved in people's lives.
"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said. "It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose."
Flew first made his mark with the 1950 article "Theology and Falsification," based on a paper for the Socratic Club, a weekly Oxford religious forum led by writer and Christian thinker C.S. Lewis.
Over the years, Flew proclaimed the lack of evidence for God while teaching at Oxford, Aberdeen, Keele, and Reading universities in Britain, in visits to numerous U.S. and Canadian campuses and in books, articles, lectures and debates.
There was no one moment of change but a gradual conclusion over recent months for Flew, a spry man who still does not believe in an afterlife.
Yet biologists' investigation of DNA "has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce (life), that intelligence must have been involved," Flew says in the new video, "Has Science Discovered God?"
The video draws from a New York discussion last May organized by author Roy Abraham Varghese's Institute for Metascientific Research in Garland, Texas. Participants were Flew; Varghese; Israeli physicist Gerald Schroeder, an Orthodox Jew; and Roman Catholic philosopher John Haldane of Scotland's University of St. Andrews.
The first hint of Flew's turn was a letter to the August-September issue of Britain's Philosophy Now magazine. "It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism," he wrote.
The letter commended arguments in Schroeder's "The Hidden Face of God" and "The Wonder of the World" by Varghese, an Eastern Rite Catholic layman.
This week, Flew finished writing the first formal account of his new outlook for the introduction to a new edition of his "God and Philosophy," scheduled for release next year by Prometheus Books.
Prometheus specializes in skeptical thought, but if his belief upsets people, well "that's too bad," Flew said. "My whole life has been guided by the principle of Plato's Socrates: Follow the evidence, wherever it leads."
Last week, Richard Carrier, a writer and Columbia University graduate student, posted new material based on correspondence with Flew on the atheistic www.infidels.org Web page. Carrier assured atheists that Flew accepts only a "minimal God" and believes in no afterlife.
Flew's "name and stature are big. Whenever you hear people talk about atheists, Flew always comes up," Carrier said. Still, when it comes to Flew's reversal, "apart from curiosity, I don't think it's like a big deal."
Flew told The Associated Press his current ideas have some similarity with American "intelligent design" theorists, who see evidence for a guiding force in the construction of the universe. He accepts Darwinian evolution but doubts it can explain the ultimate origins of life.
A Methodist minister's son, Flew became an atheist at 15.
Early in his career, he argued that no conceivable events could constitute proof against God for believers, so skeptics were right to wonder whether the concept of God meant anything at all.
Another landmark was his 1984 "The Presumption of Atheism," playing off the presumption of innocence in criminal law. Flew said the debate over God must begin by presuming atheism, putting the burden of proof on those arguing that God exists.
Famous Atheist Now Believes in God
By RICHARD N. OSTLING, AP Religion Writer
NEW YORK - A British philosophy professor who has been a leading champion of atheism for more than a half-century has changed his mind. He now believes in God — more or less — based on scientific evidence, and says so on a video released Thursday.
At age 81, after decades of insisting belief is a mistake, Antony Flew has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe. A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew said in a telephone interview from England.
Flew said he's best labeled a deist like Thomas Jefferson, whose God was not actively involved in people's lives.
"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins," he said. "It could be a person in the sense of a being that has intelligence and a purpose, I suppose."
Flew first made his mark with the 1950 article "Theology and Falsification," based on a paper for the Socratic Club, a weekly Oxford religious forum led by writer and Christian thinker C.S. Lewis.
Over the years, Flew proclaimed the lack of evidence for God while teaching at Oxford, Aberdeen, Keele, and Reading universities in Britain, in visits to numerous U.S. and Canadian campuses and in books, articles, lectures and debates.
There was no one moment of change but a gradual conclusion over recent months for Flew, a spry man who still does not believe in an afterlife.
Yet biologists' investigation of DNA "has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce (life), that intelligence must have been involved," Flew says in the new video, "Has Science Discovered God?"
The video draws from a New York discussion last May organized by author Roy Abraham Varghese's Institute for Metascientific Research in Garland, Texas. Participants were Flew; Varghese; Israeli physicist Gerald Schroeder, an Orthodox Jew; and Roman Catholic philosopher John Haldane of Scotland's University of St. Andrews.
The first hint of Flew's turn was a letter to the August-September issue of Britain's Philosophy Now magazine. "It has become inordinately difficult even to begin to think about constructing a naturalistic theory of the evolution of that first reproducing organism," he wrote.
The letter commended arguments in Schroeder's "The Hidden Face of God" and "The Wonder of the World" by Varghese, an Eastern Rite Catholic layman.
This week, Flew finished writing the first formal account of his new outlook for the introduction to a new edition of his "God and Philosophy," scheduled for release next year by Prometheus Books.
Prometheus specializes in skeptical thought, but if his belief upsets people, well "that's too bad," Flew said. "My whole life has been guided by the principle of Plato's Socrates: Follow the evidence, wherever it leads."
Last week, Richard Carrier, a writer and Columbia University graduate student, posted new material based on correspondence with Flew on the atheistic www.infidels.org Web page. Carrier assured atheists that Flew accepts only a "minimal God" and believes in no afterlife.
Flew's "name and stature are big. Whenever you hear people talk about atheists, Flew always comes up," Carrier said. Still, when it comes to Flew's reversal, "apart from curiosity, I don't think it's like a big deal."
Flew told The Associated Press his current ideas have some similarity with American "intelligent design" theorists, who see evidence for a guiding force in the construction of the universe. He accepts Darwinian evolution but doubts it can explain the ultimate origins of life.
A Methodist minister's son, Flew became an atheist at 15.
Early in his career, he argued that no conceivable events could constitute proof against God for believers, so skeptics were right to wonder whether the concept of God meant anything at all.
Another landmark was his 1984 "The Presumption of Atheism," playing off the presumption of innocence in criminal law. Flew said the debate over God must begin by presuming atheism, putting the burden of proof on those arguing that God exists.
OP
OP
beli
Blue Crack Addict
(replying to Indras post)
Its a huge issue. Its patronising and disrespectful. As well as just plain bloody rude. She not only prays in front of my daughter she makes my daughter pray for her Mummy and Daddy as well.
It has gotten to the point that we do not allow my daughter to be in her Nanas company on Sundays from 11:00am to 12:00 noon ie mass. My mother in law wants to take her to mass.
If my daughter wakes up one morning and says she wants to go to church I will arrange it but not before. Not if she hasnt asked.
But yeah, free babysittings not worth the cost.
Its a huge issue. Its patronising and disrespectful. As well as just plain bloody rude. She not only prays in front of my daughter she makes my daughter pray for her Mummy and Daddy as well. It has gotten to the point that we do not allow my daughter to be in her Nanas company on Sundays from 11:00am to 12:00 noon ie mass. My mother in law wants to take her to mass.
If my daughter wakes up one morning and says she wants to go to church I will arrange it but not before. Not if she hasnt asked.
But yeah, free babysittings not worth the cost.
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OP
OP
beli
Blue Crack Addict
coemgen said:
Sounds like its not the first time he changed his mind.
Seriously I dont care what others do and dont believe. I do my own thang. If anybody can prove to me that God exists then I will change my mind.
I wouldnt mind reading his book though. Will you remind me when its released please? I have lactating brain and will forget.
elevation
Acrobat
beli said:
I believe the only country that even comes close to the size of Australias atheist, etc, population is Denmark.
At least I think its Denmark, I cant be bothered to look it up
Don´t know the numbers either but living here, I´m quite sure you´re right... This is REALLY (read: REALLY!) a secular contry
What makes some people go one way or the other? Like Bono's mom died when he was 14 and it made him religious. Vladimir Lenin saw his Dad die of the same thing when he was 15 and it made him an athiest. Wonder how it works different with different people.
Saracene
Rock n' Roll Doggie VIP PASS
beli said:
I also don't understand how this works for people dying of natural disasters; earthquakes, tsunamis, etc.; something that humans simply have no control or influence over.
And I have real problem believing that they're caused by human evil, since these things have been happening looooooong time before humans' ancestors even appeared on Earth.
I really think that we humans are way too fond of putting ourselves in the centre of everything.
NotAnEasyThing
The Fly
beli said:
G'day again Beli!
With the greatest respect....aren't you putting words in mouth? I don't believe I ever said "God addressing the imbalance of good versus evil means and Aids victim must die"
I believe you may not have understood my previous post which was in answer to your question on my explaination of the Christian understanding of evil. What I did say was exactly what you are now indicating is your position on individual responsibility. I was explaining that the bible places us (individually & collectively) as responsible for the consequences of our actions. Your arguement about the aids victim is not with me (or the bible for that matter). Perhaps you have known Christians who have said stuff like that. That view is a load of crap as far as I'm concerned. Insensitive, ignorant crap.
If your christian friends have not taken responsibility for their hurtful actions toward others (or you) they are certainly not following a Christian/ Biblical approach to relationships. Actually that's one of the things I find most compeling about Christian spirituality. In the bible relationships are primary. Relationship with God/ realtionship with others. It is such a priority and it's the thing that Jesus seemed to talk about more than anything else. The bible puts the onus on the individual to seek restoration of damaged/broken relationships whether they have done the offending or been offended. The issue of forgiveness is a more fundamental one. Christians don't seek God's forgiveness to avoid doing the work of maintaining healthy relationships with others. In fact there is a verse from the bible which says this "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving eachother, just as in Christ, God has forgivien you".
Forgiveness in terms of forgiveness from God, is about dealing with the root problem of the evil in our own hearts. Don't take my word for it, check out what the bible says for yourself.
In my opinion most people who reject christianity reject what they think is 'christianity' and is usally not even close. I may be naive but I reckon if anyone truely looked at what Jesus was on about for themselves, they couldn't help but be captivated
Anyway, just my two cents
OP
OP
beli
Blue Crack Addict
NotAnEasyThing said:
I didnt intend that to imply that you said that sentence. My apologies if thats how it came across.
NotAnEasyThing said:
I dont believe in any gods, so any religion based on the belief in any gods is not going to gel with me.
As for Christianity, I do not understand the justice, good vs evil issues. Never have understood it and you are not the first to try and explain it to me.
I think some people are wired to be religious and some arent. Why are people different? I have not a clue.
AcrobatMan
Rock n' Roll Doggie
No further religious talk in this atheist thread..
Let me relax for a moment..
Let me enjoy the peace
Let me relax for a moment..
Let me enjoy the peace
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
See I don't need to "get" the Christian message to live my life in an honourable manner, I am well read in many areas and I do work to live a good life - I will not suceed or be flawless but that is because I am a human being, nothing more and nothing less - we do not have to be guided to do these things through religion.
The concept of evil is a more interesting one, I am of a strong opinion that there is evil in this world - a destructive streak within mankind. It is something that can be looked at and understood but the concept of an inborn evil within humanity simply does not fly - a brilliant logical leap if one wanted to justify the spreading of religious ideas but hardly grounded as a cause for suffering on this earth. Our problems are caused by mankind and so shall they be remedied by mankind - we have achieved so much in our brief stint on the endless sheet of nothingness and if we maintain it we will achieve so much more.
The concept of evil is a more interesting one, I am of a strong opinion that there is evil in this world - a destructive streak within mankind. It is something that can be looked at and understood but the concept of an inborn evil within humanity simply does not fly - a brilliant logical leap if one wanted to justify the spreading of religious ideas but hardly grounded as a cause for suffering on this earth. Our problems are caused by mankind and so shall they be remedied by mankind - we have achieved so much in our brief stint on the endless sheet of nothingness and if we maintain it we will achieve so much more.
Angela Harlem
Jesus Online
Clearly we have enough beer, sun and sport - we dont need God here. We're probably the most dehydrated nation as a result.
Doesn't Denmark have that State something'd religion? I remember when that man died over there and someone posted a thread about it in here with an article, and it gave a brief outline of Denmark's religious position.
I think I respect athiests. There's no righteousness. No rules and norms and quoting Thats Life! Magazine at the drop of a hat. Christianity can border on fair dinkum insulting, and no one has ever seemed bothered. Fuck that.
Atheists aren't into the whole right, wrong, good, evil, justified, sinner, salvation malarky. It is refreshing, in this guilt ridden Christian complex world we all seem to live in.
Doesn't Denmark have that State something'd religion? I remember when that man died over there and someone posted a thread about it in here with an article, and it gave a brief outline of Denmark's religious position.
I think I respect athiests. There's no righteousness. No rules and norms and quoting Thats Life! Magazine at the drop of a hat. Christianity can border on fair dinkum insulting, and no one has ever seemed bothered. Fuck that.
Atheists aren't into the whole right, wrong, good, evil, justified, sinner, salvation malarky. It is refreshing, in this guilt ridden Christian complex world we all seem to live in.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Angela Harlem said:
I've met quite a few athiets who are righteous. I hear there is no God, you are a fool, and belief is a lie. I even hear it in here.
Angela Harlem
Jesus Online
Ah yes. That's true. I guess I dont think of it like that as I don't really hear it myself, not being too big on religion as a concept. Not that you need to be big on it to hear it or see it.
It all falls under brow-beating then.
It all falls under brow-beating then.
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
Angela Harlem said:
It all falls under brow-beating then.
Angela Harlem
Jesus Online
Is that a sincere eyebrow? What I mean is, there is a certain level of pushiness in it all.
If I've just ruined your pun though, I do apologise
If I've just ruined your pun though, I do apologise
BostonAnne
Refugee
A_Wanderer said:
I haven't thought anything being discussed here was unique to Australians. I know more people that are agnostic or aethists than are very religious in my area. I believe society can benefit by following the teachings of Jesus, but I question/don't agree with a lot of the scripture. Perhaps that makes me agnostic.
I also agree with U2Kitten - that there has to be something else after this life. I don't have a concrete answer for myself - we could go to "heaven", we could be reincarnated. I also believe that whatever it is, it is there for all but those with evil hearts - not just Christians that follow what they believe to be the rules.
BostonAnne
Refugee
beli said:
I often think this too. I have a 4 year old daughter and we haven't taught her anything about these issues. I thought we would wait until she asks. But my mother in law is Irish Catholic and my daughter will come back from staying the night with her Nana and ask ''Why does Nana sit on the floor and ask that God save you Mummy and Daddy? Have you been bad?"
I am sorry you and your daughter have to go through this.NotAnEasyThing
The Fly
BostonAnne said:
Hi BostonAnne! I'm just watching your city on the Elevation DVD! What a great crowd y'all make- wish I could have been there, that concert must have been amazing.
Your comment just caught my eye, it sort of sums up what I was refering to in my previous post about how people so often reject Christianity on their assumption of what it is. I don't mean to just single you out, so sorry if it seems that way- it could be that was just a throw away line. However, that seems to so often be peoples perception of Christianity- that it is all about following a set of rules to get to heaven. This is so not the case, but I think there are many in the church who have a lot to answer for, for giving people this kind of impression.
They spend so much time and energy on condemning everyone elses behaviour and make people think that this is what it's all about- you do x,y,z then you will be acceptable to them and to God. Ahghhh!!
That is a concept foreign to Jesus. Christianity is not about rules, it is about freedom and relationship. Unfortunately there is a lot of bad press out there for christianity and most of it is coming out of the church. Like The "B" man said ...."Religion is what happens when God, like Elvis, has left the building". (I think thats how the quote goes!?)
Anyway just wanted to make that point (if I hadn't already made it clearly)
A_Wanderer
ONE love, blood, life
There is a difference between the atheist hrumph and the general latte left sets elitist sneerage - subtle differences you see
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