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Old 07-05-2005, 11:27 AM   #106
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The issue is manipulated by both sides for political gains. Phrases like "killing children" and "control of bodies" are used to maintain the emotional aspects of the issue.

And we keep buying into it.

Over the next 6 months, phrases like "a return to the dark ages" and "back street abortions" will be used regularly. Groups don't seek to resolve the issue, they want to keep it in contention so that they can continue to have influence.


i agree.

why does that work here, but nowhere else?
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Old 07-05-2005, 11:36 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally posted by nbcrusader


The issue is manipulated by both sides for political gains. Phrases like "killing children" and "control of bodies" are used to maintain the emotional aspects of the issue.

And we keep buying into it.

Over the next 6 months, phrases like "a return to the dark ages" and "back street abortions" will be used regularly. Groups don't seek to resolve the issue, they want to keep it in contention so that they can continue to have influence.
I don't agree. I think the reason pro-lifers use the term "killing children/babies" and pro-choicers use the term "control of body" is because that's how they really feel about the issue. I think it's as simple as that.
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Old 07-05-2005, 11:42 AM   #108
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
If Bush doesn't nominate a pro-lifer, he has betrayed the majority of his contituency, the people who put him in office.
Does this not worrie you ? Judges should be independed.


Are the judges independed in the usa ?
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Old 07-05-2005, 12:12 PM   #109
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Does this not worrie you ? Judges should be independed.


Are the judges independed in the usa ?


judges are independent in that they are not affiliated with any particular party and they have no constituents they are beholden to nor anyone's particular values to represent beyond their own.

however, judges are nominated by whatever presidential administration is in power, and then they are sent through an extensive review process and eventually confirmed by Congress.

since most laws have different interpretations, what makes a judge liberal or conservative is his/her rulings on traditionally hot-button issues for the USA, issues that are usually served as benchmarks to determine whether or not you are liberal or conservative. these issues are usually: abortion rights, affirmative action, gay/lesbian rights, gun control, etc. there are other distinctions, such as how strictly one interprets the constitution (or perhaps lack of interpreting the Constitution) that i feel someone more qualified than i, not being a lawyer, could expound upon further.
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Old 07-05-2005, 12:13 PM   #110
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Originally posted by Rono
Does this not worrie you ? Judges should be independed.


Are the judges independed in the usa ?
As independent as you can expect. Obviously, everyone has their own biases and opinions. Once Bush appoints a judge, he does not have the ability to control the judge. In that light, they are completely independent.
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Old 07-05-2005, 12:19 PM   #111
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest
If Bush doesn't nominate a pro-lifer, he has betrayed the majority of his contituency, the people who put him in office.
Why? He didn't run on this issue, he never said he'd end abortion.
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Old 07-05-2005, 12:51 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rono


Does this not worrie you ? Judges should be independed.


Are the judges independed in the usa ?
Independent of having a view on abortion?
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Old 07-05-2005, 12:55 PM   #113
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Why? He didn't run on this issue, he never said he'd end abortion.
He never said he'd "end abortion", but he certainly did run on a pro-life platform. People who are pro-life who elect a pro-life candidate expect that candidate to do whatever he can to combat abortion. This is his opportunity. If he puts someone in there who will vote pro-choice, he is betraying his pro-life constituency.
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Old 07-05-2005, 01:17 PM   #114
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Originally posted by 80sU2isBest


He never said he'd "end abortion", but he certainly did run on a pro-life platform. People who are pro-life who elect a pro-life candidate expect that candidate to do whatever he can to combat abortion. This is his opportunity. If he puts someone in there who will vote pro-choice, he is betraying his pro-life constituency.


which was probably the political strategy to begin with.

it hasn't yet dawned on the one-issue pro-life voters that abortion is always going to remain legal, and by aligning yourselves with the Republicans solely on the basis of their stated opposition to abortion, you're assisting a party that, in general, is only going to take your support and translate that into tax cuts for the rich and lax environmental regulations for businesses.

since most of us -- pro-life/anti-choice and pro-choice included -- aren't wealthy enough to benefit from these tax cuts, this combined with the fact that the average income in the Red States -- more pro-life/anti-choice than the Blue States, as a rule -- and you'll find that many pro-life/anti-choice people have been conned into voting against their own economic self-interests.
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Old 07-05-2005, 01:21 PM   #115
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He'll appoint a moderate.

And the fundamentalist right will hate him

Fun times.
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Old 07-05-2005, 01:22 PM   #116
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Originally posted by Irvine511




which was probably the political strategy to begin with.

it hasn't yet dawned on the one-issue pro-life voters that abortion is always going to remain legal, and by aligning yourselves with the Republicans solely on the basis of their stated opposition to abortion, you're assisting a party that, in general, is only going to take your support and translate that into tax cuts for the rich and lax environmental regulations for businesses.

since most of us -- pro-life/anti-choice and pro-choice included -- aren't wealthy enough to benefit from these tax cuts, this combined with the fact that the average income in the Red States -- more pro-life/anti-choice than the Blue States, as a rule -- and you'll find that many pro-life/anti-choice people have been conned into voting against their own economic self-interests.
Although I agree with you, Irvine, that many "red-staters" as it were do vote against their economic self-interest, what truly concerns me is that I think Bush does, in fact, have the wherewithal to nominate and ram through a confirmation on a solidly anti-abortion-rights candidate (see how carefully I worded that one? ). I really do worry that the Democrats don't have enough spine to shoot down a nominee who could and would tip the balance towards a repudiation of Roe, and we could be facing the end of reproductive rights as we know them in the United States.

My worry here is bolstered by the fact that Bush is a lame duck and has nothing to lose.

What makes you think he won't try--or won't succees--in pushing through an anti-abortion-rights judge? I'm not giving you a hard time; I'm genuinely curious as to the root of your position, because everything I see leads me to believe he really could and would do it.
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Old 07-05-2005, 01:36 PM   #117
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What makes you think he won't try--or won't succees--in pushing through an anti-abortion-rights judge? I'm not giving you a hard time; I'm genuinely curious as to the root of your position, because everything I see leads me to believe he really could and would do it.


it could be politically ruinous for the Republican party to be the party that ended reproductive rights. and for the past 30+ years the Republicans have been all talk and no action on the issue, so i don't see any reason why they'd have more success now than they did with Bork. Bush has also, as BVS pointed out, never said that he'd end abortion. he gives parts of his constituency vauge pillow-talk (and total bullshit) phrases like "culture of life" -- which, oddly, embraces the death penalty, fears stem cells, and loves to bomb iraqis -- and semi-obscure references like his Dread Scott reference in Bush vs. Kerry debate #2, i think.

when it gets down to it, i think that many Republicans might mouth an anti-choice/pro-life line, but deep down no one wants to see that law overturned. especially Republican women.

because, frankly, if these high ranking Republican women didn't remain in control of when they do and do not get pregnant, it's rather doubtful that they'd be walking the halls of Congress.
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Old 07-05-2005, 01:39 PM   #118
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Zing!

Thanks for clearing that up. Good points.
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Old 07-05-2005, 01:42 PM   #119
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though your point about Bush being a lame duck (and, boy, is he ever lame) is a very good one.

who knows? the waters could be more dangerous than i anticipate.
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Old 07-05-2005, 01:45 PM   #120
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though your point about Bush being a lame duck (and, boy, is he ever lame) is a very good one.

who knows? the waters could be more dangerous than i anticipate.
Well, I hope not. Maybe I'm just a bit on-edge from too much advertising (I started seeing NARAL ads as early as Saturday).
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